Beyond The Sprues
Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Aero-space => Topic started by: GTX_Admin on February 19, 2012, 05:14:14 AM
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Hi folks,
A thread for your Republic P-47 (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration.
Here are a few to start you off:
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/More%20Creations/4d903118.jpg)
Turbo prop (no specific engine per sae) competitor to the Cavalier Turbo Mustang III/ Enforcer:
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/More%20Creations/75e3512c.jpg)
regards,
Greg
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<...>
([url]http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/More%20Creations/4d903118.jpg[/url])
<...>
The T-Bolt's so big, you could probably get away with a ball turret in the belly! ;D
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A XP-47J/P-47N cross and/or a XP-47H/P-47N cross are a couple starting points. If the XP-72 can be discussed here, a XP-72/P-47N cross with a five-bladed prop in place of the problem-plagued contra-prop set-up of the first XP-72 prototype.
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XP-72 -- hmm! one of my fav' aircraft
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa263/kitnut617/American%20Fighters/RepublicXp-72010.jpg)
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An oldie I just restumbed across:
http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/allies/us/usn/ran47h.htm (http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/allies/us/usn/ran47h.htm)
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An oldie I just restumbed across:
[url]http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/allies/us/usn/ran47h.htm[/url] ([url]http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/allies/us/usn/ran47h.htm[/url])
ah, yes ! :-* :-* my favourite P-47 version EVER ! :-* :-*
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Greg:
Do you have any blanks for the XP-47H? I have two of the MPM kits. I want to one as a razor back canopy and the other one with a bubble canopy.
Carl
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Try this:
(http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/AirWar/46/Draw/43.jpg)
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Extra long wings on a P-47N and a wide paddle prop. Recon pods for cameras and it patrols the skies above Korea. It becomes the WB-57 of Jugs.
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Another to wet your appetite:
(http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/AirWar/46/Draw/47.jpg)
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Extra long wings on a P-47N and a wide paddle prop. Recon pods for cameras and it patrols the skies above Korea. It becomes the WB-57 of Jugs.
I'll add this to my queue. I have a spare P-47M which now has a future. WP-47M?
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Subtle whiff: P-47 with twin 20mm cannon in each wing.
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:)
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Extra long wings on a P-47N and a wide paddle prop. Recon pods for cameras and it patrols the skies above Korea. It becomes the WB-57 of Jugs.
I'll add this to my queue. I have a spare P-47M which now has a future. WP-47M?
Errr, Guys... W denotes weather recon... For a Korean War era recon Jug, it'd be a RF-47 something.
Regards,
John
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Extra long wings on a P-47N and a wide paddle prop. Recon pods for cameras and it patrols the skies above Korea. It becomes the WB-57 of Jugs.
I'll add this to my queue. I have a spare P-47M which now has a future. WP-47M?
Errr, Guys... W denotes weather recon... For a Korean War era recon Jug, it'd be a RF-47 something.
Regards,
John
Thanks John. I guess the "W" was a PICNIC problem. Problem In Chair, Not In Keyboard. :-[
But that leads another thread of WWII - Post WWII dedicated Weather Birds.
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Maybe the WP-47M starts off as a "weather" version and then moves into the recon business ...or maybe it is designated as such as a cover story...?
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Featured build at Scott's Modeling Madness
(http://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/us/usaaf/ran47dda.jpg)
http://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/us/usaaf/ran47dd.htm (http://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/us/usaaf/ran47dd.htm)
***topic merged after coordination with Carl and merged with this discussion of the P-47 Thunderbolt. - jjf 20130226-1338PST
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Oh yeah! Invite sent?
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You had my attention when you put "DD" in the name somewhere ;D
Seriously nice looking piece of work the guy's done there.
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That would be such a bruiser :-* great work
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You had my attention when you put "DD" in the name somewhere ;D
Just keeping abreast of developments weren't you.... 8)
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Yup. Just getting of tired of people building A's, B's, C's, and D's. Time to double up.
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Oh yeah! Invite sent?
Yes. He said will look into it.
I know it is a reach but please be on your best behaviour.
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Oh yeah! Invite sent?
Yes. He said will look into it.
I know it is a reach but please be on your best behaviour.
We can always try but there are no guarantees :)
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Hello Gents! I am honored that you like my creation. Carl sent me an invite (Thank you Sir!) and I've been looking around since. Very nice site; awesome work done here and loads of ideas.
I have a fondness for P-47's and have done several Koster conversions as well as a P-47H Thunderfloat, all reviews over at Modeling Madness. I guess I just like odd Thunderbolts.
Some of my Whiffer Links if u wanna check them out:
http://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/us/usn/ran47h.htm (http://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/us/usn/ran47h.htm)
http://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/us/usaaf/ran72.htm (http://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/us/usaaf/ran72.htm)
http://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/us/usaaf/rannalsxp55.htm (http://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/us/usaaf/rannalsxp55.htm)
I'll try to get to know everyone; prolly lurk for awhile (i'm shy) ;) I guess I'll go post over at the "I'm new here" area too.
Great site here and again, thanks for the invite!
Dale Rannals
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nice double-Bolt, Dale :)
I'm very much a fan of your float-bolt since seeing on MM :-* :P
Welcome aboard indeed !
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There is a Tamiya P-47 Razorback in the stash with a ready-to-assemble cockpit to be done up as an early Khemed aircraft, resumably serving along with the Spitfire and Mosquito.
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Welcome aboard Dale. Great work there! Can't wait to see more.
Regards,
Greg
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P-47 Stuka ......
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flying-Tiger-aircraft-assembled-Corsair-Spirit-of-Atlantic-City-New-Jersey-Model-/321168728269#ht_398wt_1399 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flying-Tiger-aircraft-assembled-Corsair-Spirit-of-Atlantic-City-New-Jersey-Model-/321168728269#ht_398wt_1399)
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:-\
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P-47 Stuka ......
[url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flying-Tiger-aircraft-assembled-Corsair-Spirit-of-Atlantic-City-New-Jersey-Model-/321168728269#ht_398wt_1399[/url] ([url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flying-Tiger-aircraft-assembled-Corsair-Spirit-of-Atlantic-City-New-Jersey-Model-/321168728269#ht_398wt_1399[/url])
Looks like a victim of too much sunshine
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P-47 Stuka ......
[url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flying-Tiger-aircraft-assembled-Corsair-Spirit-of-Atlantic-City-New-Jersey-Model-/321168728269#ht_398wt_1399[/url] ([url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flying-Tiger-aircraft-assembled-Corsair-Spirit-of-Atlantic-City-New-Jersey-Model-/321168728269#ht_398wt_1399[/url])
Looks like a victim of too much sunshine
and / or drugs ;D
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Try this:
([url]http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/AirWar/46/Draw/43.jpg[/url])
Speaking about XP-47H.
Was it really needed such big airframe t install a Chrysler 2220 engine? Could it be installed in a smaller aircraft like a P-40 or P-51?
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I think you'll find they need the space for the turbo-charger and the associated plumbing...
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Anything is possible, but you might want to consider the basic engine dimensions:
Length: 122 in (3,098.8 mm)
Width: 33.5 in (850.9 mm)
Height: 33.5 in (850.9 mm)
Dry weight: 2,430 lb (1,102.2 kg)
Compared to a Packard Merlin in a P-51 and some P-40s:
Length: 88.7 in (2,253 mm)
Width: 30.8 in (781 mm)
Height: 40 in (1016 mm)
Dry weight: 1,645 lb (746 kg)
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So, how about a cross between an XP-47H and a P-47N? Alternatively, one between an XP-47J Superbolt and a P-47N?
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I like that idea Evan.
Here's two I built some time ago.
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Couple of others, RAF ones this time. In the Squadron/Signal P-47 in Action, it sort of insinuates that the RAF Thunderbolts in Burma were fitted with RAF style rocket launchers. I've not found any photographic evidence to support that, but I put them on anyway. Other than that they're both RW, although I have since found out the black one with the silver cheatline should actually had a Roundel Red cheatline. The scheme was the Chief Instructors aircraft in Egypt, I had used the Carpena decal sheet.
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I've got an 'M' built too, behind the Eagle tempest
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Anything is possible, but you might want to consider the basic engine dimensions:
Length: 122 in (3,098.8 mm)
Width: 33.5 in (850.9 mm)
Height: 33.5 in (850.9 mm)
Dry weight: 2,430 lb (1,102.2 kg)
Compared to a Packard Merlin in a P-51 and some P-40s:
Length: 88.7 in (2,253 mm)
Width: 30.8 in (781 mm)
Height: 40 in (1016 mm)
Dry weight: 1,645 lb (746 kg)
Did you get Chrysler's dimendions from wiki? Do you think it is logical width exactly equal to heigh?
Look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_XI-1430 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_XI-1430) all three dimensions the same :-\
Anyway an equivalent version in P-40 or P-51 range sounds so tempting ... I think I will not resist. 8)
Thanks Greg.
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Why wouldn't it be logical? The figures are correct.
If you need to know more buy Kim McCutcheon's book.
http://www.weakforcepress.com/CAE/CAE_2.shtml (http://www.weakforcepress.com/CAE/CAE_2.shtml)
(http://www.weakforcepress.com/CAE/USPTOdual-rotation_0.jpg)
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Just a thought, how about a floatplane version based on the SEV-3 floatplane.
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Anyway an equivalent version in P-40 or P-51 range sounds so tempting ... I think I will not resist. 8)
You might want to consider stretching the tails in order to help balance out the increased weight.
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:) 8)
(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/P40-P51-Chrysler2220.jpeg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/P40-P51-Chrysler2220.jpeg.html)
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Is the engine to scale with the rest of the airframe?
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There is a small reduction respect to XP-47H, but IMO the engine would fit anyway. A smaller supercharger, maybe.
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Carlos, the Chrysler had both an engine mounted mechanical supercharger
and a separately mounted turbo-supercharger. Which the P-47 had making
it the perfect candidate as a testbed.
The engine mounted supercharger/accessory section was partly responsible for
the length of the engine. A smaller supercharger (smaller how?) would have
little effect on overall length.
The photos posted show how long it was and where the engine mounts are, mount it
to the same firewall as the Allison or Packard Merlin of a P-51/P-40 and it's going to
increase the length of the aircraft by over three feet, no way around it. In order to
prevent too much of a Pinnochio effect the forward fuselage structure, firewall
position etc., would have to be redesigned and moved aft, which leads to 'now where
do we put the stuff that had been in that space" and on and on ...
An IV-2220 wouldn't fit, so invent a new member of the family that could fit, maybe the
IV-1776, 20% smaller displacement but oh, the propaganda value of the number.
;)
Note that 20% less displacement does not mean that the external dimensions would
decrease by the same factor - it aint' a 1 to 1 relationship.
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I like the overall shape of those Carlos but as Jon says, it just wouldn't fit. However, you might be better off using the Wright R-2160 Tornado engine which had a small diameter and the advantage of being able to add or subtract cylinder rows.
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Maybe we need a thread dedicated to "engines that never made it into series production"?
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That engine looks strangely fitting on the P-40! :)
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Maybe we need a thread dedicated to "engines that never made it into series production"?
Or a GB. :) 8)
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A racer version?
The P-47 looks pretty blunt - but a blunt looking nose hasn't stopped Bearcats and Sea Furies from going fast.
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A racer version?
The P-47 looks pretty blunt - but a blunt looking nose hasn't stopped Bearcats and Sea Furies from going fast.
The Sea Fury doesn't have a blunt nose, it's got one of the biggest spinners used on a prop plane to streamline the airflow over the cowling. And the really fast Bearcats use a Sea Fury spinner --- look at any photo of 'Rare Bear' ---
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Sa a P-47 would need a big spinner and some other rearrangement in the front end...
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Have a look at reply #4 in this thread, what you see is a Shackleton spinner (which was the same size and shape as the spinner that came in the kit). The Sea Fury spinner is about 1.5 times bigger so would be more than adequate for a P-47. A few of the Bearcats use B-26 Intruder spinners too.
EDIT: I think you'll find that the XP-72 was the end result of all the XP-47 experiments into making it more streamlined ---
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A little late, but there's also auxiliary propulsion to consider - I had some fun building the P-47R 'Rambolt' awhile back.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2297/5784775938_cce65c189f_z.jpg)
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A little late, but there's also auxiliary propulsion to consider - I had some fun building the P-47R 'Rambolt' awhile back.
([url]http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2297/5784775938_cce65c189f_z.jpg[/url])
Very Nice. What did you build the ramjets out of?
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Some P-47 (and related) inspiration here (http://www.inpayne.com/portfolio/whatif1.html)
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@ the Gimper : I'm not positive ( I didn't take a whole lot of in-progress shots ) but I think the ramjets are modified fishing bobbers.
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@ the Gimper : I'm not positive ( I didn't take a whole lot of in-progress shots ) but I think the ramjets are modified fishing bobbers.
I find your answer very fishy. :o
The images I have seen of ramjets is that they are not a constant diameter. Smaller in front, getting larger with max diameter 9/10ths back and then narrow up at the rear.
Hasegawa did a 1/48 P-51 with ramjets.
I can also use pulse jets.
Picture here. (http://q-zon-fighterplanes.com/fighter-jets-in-action/fighters-usa/usa-v/)
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I picked up some resin and metal 20mm barrels a while back with the intention of replacing the eight .50 Browning machine guns with four 20mm weapons.
The dilemma I face at the moment is whether to have each barrel side-by-side in close proximity to suggest the ammunition supply is off to one side or to place the gun barrels further apart to suggest that the ammunition supply is situated immediately next to each gun. Greater dispersion of rounds with the barrels further apart or tighter groupings with the barrels closer together.
I suppose it also depends on the mission performed. In this case a P-47 Thunderbolt armed with four 20mm cannons would be as a ground attack aircraft in the USAAF '46 theme and not a dedicated fighter for air to air combat.
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Mustangs, Corsairs and Hellcats all got the 20mm treatment, I wonder why they never did a P-47, certainly an interesting idea Jeff. I could see some RAF versions like that too, seeing as the Brits prefered cannon over machine guns. How about a Far East P-47 with a quartet of Hispano 30mm's ----
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Was the P-47 wing chord large enough to accommodate 20mm cannons and associated feeds?
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Apparently the 78th FG tried a field mod where the added a pair of 20mm cannons to a P-47. The Thunderbolt flown by Colonel Fred Gray of the 78th Fighter Group had two20 mm cannon manufactured by Oldsmobile mounted under the wings of this aircraft. It was thought that the added punch of the two cannon would be a real plus in strafing missions but the installation did not prove to be successful. The cannon added considerable drag and knocked top speed down by 50 mph. Streamlined fairings had been designed but were not installed when this photograph was taken on 24 October 1944. It was hard to beat the destructive power of the standard eight .50 caliber guns and the aircraft was converted back to standard configuration. The aircraft was at Duxford, England when the photograph was taken.
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Was the P-47 wing chord large enough to accommodate 20mm cannons and associated feeds?
The wing is as big as a Tempest wing Brian, so I would think so ---
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Was the P-47 wing chord large enough to accommodate 20mm cannons and associated feeds?
The ammunition feed on the P-47 Thunderbolt was arranged so that each of the feed chutes carrying the linked belts ran over the top of each machine gun to feed the gun next to it. All of that still fit under a smooth wing panel.
Similar feed systems for the 20mm cannon were available and the F4U Corsair was set up in a similar arrangement so applying that technology to a P-47 Thunderbolt would make perfect sense if the USAAF had not been so stubborn in sticking with the simplicity of the .50 Browning machine guns they appeared to favour for fighter and ground attack aircraft.
I recall reading about this machine gun vs cannon issue during the Korean War where the USAF and USN each flew an aircraft in a comparison test against truck targets. I believe it was a USAF Mustang (.50 machine guns) and a Navy Corsair (20mm cannons) that flew the test. The target was a truck and each weapon type did what it was supposed to do and shredded the target. The 20mm cannon did so with fewer rounds expended and obviously proved the point that a 20mm or 30mm cannon armed attack aircraft were obviously much better at destroying ground targets than an aircraft armed with machine guns that had at best only API/API-T as the damage mechanism to destroy the target. The USAF did not change their mind even in the face of such obvious and overwhelming results, they stuck with their decision to continue to use the .50 machine gun.
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Probably the best discussion of the subject of HMG vs. cannon, from Tony Williams website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CannonMGs.htm (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CannonMGs.htm)
As to a P-47 based racer? why not? Its ancestors did well in the Bendix races.
For a pylon racer, use a Razorback fuselage (less drag than the bubble-top),
clipped N model wings and get rid of the turbo and related exhaust/induction
systems as it wouldn't be needed at low altitude and losing the weight would
be to the team's advantage.
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and get rid of the turbo and related exhaust/induction
systems as it wouldn't be needed at low altitude and losing the weight would
be to the team's advantage.
Hmmm…losing those elements might also allow one to slim down the fuselage a little too
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v727/johnhowlingmouse/P-47%20Super%20Bolt/P-47supercharger.jpg)
(http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2007/03/P47_Intake.jpg)
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Yep, especially as the belly fairing got deeper on the later C and D-5 on models to accommodate
the plumbing for the belly tank. Of course, you'd want to add a J style cowling and grouped exhausts
ala FW 190, Sea Fury, Bearcat etc.
;D
Perhaps, a good use for the undernourished fuselage of the 1/48th Hasegawa Jugs. :)
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Those exhaust ducts running under the cockpit must have kept the pilots cosy and warm in European skies but in the Pacific?
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Those exhaust ducts running under the cockpit must have kept the pilots cosy and warm in European skies but in the Pacific?
Well I would say, at 10-15,000 ft (and above) anywhere in the world, it's cold up there ---- it's why there's snow on the 14,000 ft mountain (volcano) in Hawaii
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Wasn't the large fuselage volume underneath a prime reason why the P-47 was so much loved by pilots in ground attack? Whenever one belly landed there was this huge gap between him and a somewhat unwellcoming ground.
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While poking around on Evilbay I found these two items on auction:
Koster 1/48 XP-47J (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Koster-Aero-1-48-Republic-XP-47J-Conversion-for-Monogram-P-47D-kit-25-/181556098550?pt=Model_Kit_US&hash=item2a459635f6) conversion
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/RaYAAOSwdsFUOYnW/$_57.JPG)
Koster 1/48 XP-72 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Koster-Aero-1-48-Republic-XP-72-Conversion-for-Monogram-P-47D-kit-26-/171497260892?pt=Model_Kit_US&hash=item27ee08875c) conversion
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/PtQAAOSwcu5UOYkV/$_57.JPG)
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I keep thinking that both would look interesting crossed with P-47N kits.
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Does anyone know if you can get a kit or conversion of the twin seat P-47...preferably in 1/48:
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x266/Littorio/DSC_0001-4.jpg)
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Kora Models does a 1/72 P-47G-15 "Double-Bolt" conversion.
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For a COIN P-47, would it be wise to delete the turbo-supercharger setup to free up weight for additional ordinance/fuel?
Or would that remove the power to lift said additional ordinance/fuel?
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For a COIN P-47, would it be wise to delete the turbo-supercharger setup to free up weight for additional ordinance/fuel?
Or would that remove the power to lift said additional ordinance/fuel?
I'd leave the turbo-supercharager setup in because A) the cost in time and engineering to remove it would be excessive and B) it would help "hot and high" COIN operations.
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Sold!
My original thoughts were to leave the turbo-supercharger, but I wanted a double check from some folks in the know.
Its in primer right now, expect pics probably next week. ;)
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No, you would want to ditch the turbo-supercharger as, unlike automotive systems, it's use was to retain sea level
power output as the altitude increased rather than a straightforward increase of horsepower like a car. It would be of little
use in a COIN situation as at low levels pretty much all the R-2800 engines had approximately the same power rating
(2000/2100 hp at 2700/2800 rpm at 1500 ft) turbo and non-turbo. The turbo-supercharger on the P-47 (like all
turbo-supercharged USAAC/USAAF aircraft) functioned as a second aka auxiliary stage, so dumping it and changing
the size/speed of the engine mounted first stage to match the operating profile would be the likely change.
P-38s used for air-racing post-WWII dumped the turbo-supercharger system, and even during the war mechanical
two-stage multi-speed supercharged aircraft locked out a stage/speed or used a cropped impeller when used for
dedicated low-level work.
http://www.enginehistory.org/P&W/R-2800/DoubleWaspIndex.pdf (http://www.enginehistory.org/P&W/R-2800/DoubleWaspIndex.pdf)
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It depends on where you're doing COIN work. As I said "hot and high" environments would require it.
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Found on Facebook. Canadian/Alaskan/Russian/Scandinavian use cases:
(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14691076_1320432027976485_5755527283972264769_n.jpg?oh=c6961875b1b3ea755a84851cdad83956&oe=58AC9F0B)
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I wonder if there's a frozen lake on earth that could take the weight of a Thunderbolt on it.
Cheers,
Logan
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Found on Facebook. Canadian/Alaskan/Russian/Scandinavian use cases:
(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14691076_1320432027976485_5755527283972264769_n.jpg?oh=c6961875b1b3ea755a84851cdad83956&oe=58AC9F0B)
Skis...
In real world, at least Finland gave up on the idea of using skis on fighters, during WWII. Too much loss of performance, too much trouble to make them retractable.
I wonder if there's a frozen lake on earth that could take the weight of a Thunderbolt on it.
Cheers,
Logan
I don't think the weight would be a problem. Strong ice can be really strong.
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I wonder if there's a frozen lake on earth that could take the weight of a Thunderbolt on it.
I don't think the weight would be a problem. Strong ice can be really strong.
Oh, I'm well aware, but I don't pass up an opportunity to make light of Republic's overweight (and underappreciated) fighter.
Cheers,
Logan
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A diorama opportunity. A P-47 on skis with one ski broken through a thin spot in the ice! >:D
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Oh, Gawd! Where does my brain get these from? ::)
I just had an image of a P-47 sitting next to a hole in the ice, through which a whale has emerged & is smooching up to the P-47. :-\
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Now build it!!!
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Do I look like a masochist? ???
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No turbo-supercharger.
Fabric covered wings.
Fabric covered aft fuselage.
3 blade prop.
British desert markings.
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(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/d2/17/f6/d217f6a6144e81ad9ff16dab5d6c1fde.jpg)
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Turbocharger system of a P-47:
(https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13529094_879276862184414_5195749350931114547_n.jpg?oh=c0458f646fcde090c5d205b0c12426f9&oe=5AFBE5B1)
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Almost bigger than some fighters on its little lonesome! :-\
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Thanks for posting that Greg, I needed to see what it really looked like because I'm thinking of a MB5 with a Centaurus where I could keep the radiator duct. A variant of the Centaurus that was planned for the Vickers Type 'C' bomber which would have had a supercharger and turbocharger.
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I'm forming (possibly fermenting) an idea for a civil aircraft based on the P-47, or possibly a civilian variation that branched off the ancestral design at the same time as the P-47.
While it's still all in my head, though I will do some drawings at some point, the idea is too build it without the turbocharger and the associated "gut" that goes with it. The goal is to have an aircraft where the wings and belly are smooth with each other and more dynamic lift can be generated with the undersurface.
Keeping the width of the P-47, I'm envisioning a 4 to 5 place cabin and some stowage space
I'm also thinking that once the turbocharger, guns and other military specific gear is gone, that the R-2800 engine might be a bit of overkill for the lightened aircraft.
At that, I'd like to pick a few brains here:
I was thinking that an R-1820 Cyclone might be a good fit when I look at some of the single engine types it was applied to.
Any other ideas?
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Gee,,, good concept and question. Yes, lot of weight loss without 8x50cal ammo feeds, armor, etc.....
Still like R-2800 for speedy transport and takeoff power. And don't have to change engine mounting, cowling, fuels lines, electric lines, and the rest.
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What about something similar to the T-28R-2 Nomair II? This was a commercial derivative of the T-28 Trojan trainer and was able to carry a pilot at front and two pairs of seats for four passengers. The canopy was fixed and there was a door on the port side of the cabin. The first production model flew in February 1962 and a total of ten were built.
(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/JS/Janes66/2/239-3.jpg)
The P-47 is about the same size as the T-28 (if anything, the P-47 is slightly larger) so if you were to take the turbocharger and associated ductwork out you might have quite a bit of useable space.
Another option might also be to try to bash the cockpit/cabin of the AD-5 (4 seat version) into the P-47:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wI-DdPSXymk/SxlFLdA8nzI/AAAAAAAAAiM/ci9RnsAJB2g/s1600/AD-5+Target+Tow.jpg)
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Interesting suggestions and I'll definitely consider them.
My initial visualisations for the finished aircraft were something along the lines of a Spartan 7W:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7357/9021177311_2a1bf26eb8_b.jpg)
I have a spare AZ Models 1/72 Let L-200 Morava that I'm going to see if I can make the cabin area fit to a Revell P-47 I've also got sitting around:
(https://pickledwings.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/img_0565.jpg)
The Morava cabin would give me a nice mid to late 50s 5 place arrangement and the Morava kit also has some nice other bits, like wing tip tanks, that I could use.
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Turbocharger system of a P-47:
(https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13529094_879276862184414_5195749350931114547_n.jpg?oh=c0458f646fcde090c5d205b0c12426f9&oe=5AFBE5B1)
Cool Greg, thanks!
It gives a real appreciation of the P-47's turbocharger, it's size/bulk and contributor to the overall P-47's dimensions.
M.A.D
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(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/d2/17/f6/d217f6a6144e81ad9ff16dab5d6c1fde.jpg)
Very effective chart!
Thanks Greg
M.A.D
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My initial visualisations for the finished aircraft were something along the lines of a Spartan 7W:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7357/9021177311_2a1bf26eb8_b.jpg)
Good choice.
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I have a spare AZ Models 1/72 Let L-200 Morava that I'm going to see if I can make the cabin area fit to a Revell P-47 I've also got sitting around:
<snip>
The Morava cabin would give me a nice mid to late 50s 5 place arrangement and the Morava kit also has some nice other bits, like wing tip tanks, that I could use.
That's a great idea! The L-200's cockpit area may be just a little too wide for the P-47, unless you move it forward a bit.
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That's a great idea! The L-200's cockpit area may be just a little too wide for the P-47, unless you move it forward a bit.
Thankfully, the way the Morava kit's parts breakdown goes, it shouldn't be to difficult to shim the P-47 a touch wider or to sand the Morava a bit narrower.
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Look at that, there's a 1/72 kit of the Spartan
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If only it was 1/48...
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It would be a neat tie-up to ‘family tree’ as the first in the line that lead to the P-47
was a civil aircraft.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seversky_SEV-3 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seversky_SEV-3)
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/law1/sev3/sev3-3.jpg)
Douglas studied an A-17 based executive aircraft pre WWII.
(http://photos.smugmug.com/OLDPB/i-GL4C3Bd/0/abc931a0/L/DT202_01-L.jpg)
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Induction system explained.
(http://photos.smugmug.com/BTS-2/i-VdRPzqX/0/d926cc93/O/IMG_0227.jpg)
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([url]http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/law1/sev3/sev3-3.jpg[/url])
Now there's a neat way for an amphibian undercarriage, I'll have to keep that in mind for a couple of projects I've been pondering.
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For those builders who want to detail their P-47D razorback supercharger, there are many awesome shots in this article on an ongoing 1:1 scale restoration:
Dakota Territory Air Museum’s P-47 Update – October, 2018 (http://Dakota Territory Air Museum’s P-47 Update – October, 2018)
I cannot hotlink the images. :(
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x
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Induction system explained.
What's the exhaust on that look like? Asking for a friend.
Nevermind. I thought that was this, in which case I was never here and you never saw me.
(https://www.sharkit.com/sharkit/P47jet/47jetfnotice.jpg)
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And the regular P-47 is considered tubby! Oy!
I wonder if the overall drag coefficient wouldn't have been less is they had raised the cockpit a bit and allowed the engine more room up inside the fuselage to streamline that belly a bit more. Which, I suppose, is really the F-84...
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And the regular P-47 is considered tubby! Oy!
I wonder if the overall drag coefficient wouldn't have been less is they had raised the cockpit a bit and allowed the engine more room up inside the fuselage to streamline that belly a bit more. Which, I suppose, is really the F-84...
Moving the cockpit forward and raising the engine would work, too, and that is very much the F-84. Be interesting to do an "early concept" F-84 with P-47N wings.
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Moving the cockpit forward and raising the engine would work, too, and that is very much the F-84. Be interesting to do an "early concept" F-84 with P-47N wings.
Group build?
I was never here, you never saw me...
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/7a/5a/b27a5aaecfbe5b5828dadb260a9e8b50.jpg)
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Moving the cockpit forward and raising the engine would work, too, and that is very much the F-84. Be interesting to do an "early concept" F-84 with P-47N wings.
tail-dragger or tri-gear
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Moving the cockpit forward and raising the engine would work, too, and that is very much the F-84. Be interesting to do an "early concept" F-84 with P-47N wings.
tail-dragger or tri-gear
Could go either way; I suspect it might start as a tail-dragger and then evolve to tri-gear. I've been thinking of blending a straight-wing F-84 kit with bits (canopy and wing primarily) of a P-47N to do yet another iteration on the way to the F-84.
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Can't remember if I've suggested this before, but how about a cross between the XP-47J and the P-47N?
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My aficionado scale P-47/P-72 ideas:
XP-47H with bubble canopy
XP-47H with P-47N wings
XP-72 with P-47N wings
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My aficionado scale P-47/P-72 ideas:
XP-47H with bubble canopy
XP-47H with P-47N wings
XP-72 with P-47N wings
How about XP-72 with P-47N wings and 5-bladed prop? Doesn't look as cool as two three-bladed contra-props, but would be mechanically simpler and more robust.
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Just a little inspiration:
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/p47thunderboltmkii-jpg.583594/)
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Wing root intakes and bifurcated tail pipes as per Sea Hawk ;)
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(https://combatace.com/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-23484-0-96580200-1420759289.jpg)
(https://combatace.com/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-23484-0-85816600-1420759303.jpg)
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Says Japan '46 to me.
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Going through my profile archive I found these drawn by John Payne. Here are a few samples:
Razor and Bubble Canopy P-47H
(http://www.inpayne.com/whatif/xp47h04.jpg)
(http://www.inpayne.com/whatif/xp47h09.jpg)
Razor and Bubble Canopy P-47J
(http://www.inpayne.com/whatif/xp47j01.jpg)
(http://www.inpayne.com/whatif/xp47j06.jpg)
P-72/F-72
(http://www.inpayne.com/whatif/xp7202.jpg)
(http://www.inpayne.com/whatif/xp7208.jpg)
Full collection is here: http://www.inpayne.com/whatif/whatif.html (http://www.inpayne.com/whatif/whatif.html)
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Hmm! those bubble top 'H' and 'J' ------ very possible :smiley: How hard did someone say finding these kits are ?
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Hmm! those bubble top 'H' and 'J' ------ very possible :smiley: How hard did someone say finding these kits are ?
Kits of the XP-47J are the really difficult ones to come by. AFAIK, Sharkit is the only company to ever make a kit of that one.
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Hmm! those bubble top 'H' and 'J' ------ very possible :smiley: How hard did someone say finding these kits are ?
Kits of the XP-47J are the really difficult ones to come by. AFAIK, Sharkit is the only company to ever make a kit of that one.
You are correct Evan -- I already have one which I built years ago, along with a MPM XP-47H and an Alliance XP-72. I just like the look of those bubbletop versions Carl posted. The photos say 2006 but that was when I took the pictures, I built them around 2000-2002.
EDIT: Just looked on the Sharkit website, the XP-47J is still available at 50 Euros.
http://www.sharkit.com/sharkit/XP-47j/xp47.htm (http://www.sharkit.com/sharkit/XP-47j/xp47.htm)
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Evan:
You can get a homegrown XP-47J conversion kit from "fastrodney" on Ebay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284284280743 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/284284280743)
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/tJMAAOSwEaxgNB5p/s-l500.jpg)
I have the Sharkit XP-47J so I will buy this and use the recommend Academy kit bubbletop P-47 to make bubbletop version.
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1/48 options:
XP-47H: https://www.ebay.com/itm/233891848742?hash=item36750a6226:g:R~cAAOSwZZFf9zm~ (https://www.ebay.com/itm/233891848742?hash=item36750a6226:g:R~cAAOSwZZFf9zm~)
XP-47J: https://www.ebay.com/itm/233921868334?hash=item3676d4722e:g:P1QAAOSw9qBgRCTX (https://www.ebay.com/itm/233921868334?hash=item3676d4722e:g:P1QAAOSw9qBgRCTX)
XP-72: https://www.ebay.com/itm/233924761403?hash=item367700973b:g:8xgAAOSwTSlgR3m7 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/233924761403?hash=item367700973b:g:8xgAAOSwTSlgR3m7)
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I think I've bought other conversions for "fastrodney". I'm thinking the P-47J conversion would go nicely with a P-47N. IIRC, he also does a P-72 conversion in 1/72.
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Quick sketch of an idea...
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/1071px-P-47B.svg.png)
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It wasn't because they didn't try to arm it with 20mm
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It wasn't because they didn't try to arm it with 20mm
Not sure what you're trying to say? ???
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It wasn't because they didn't try to arm it with 20mm
Not sure what you're trying to say? ???
Two 20mm Hispanos were mounted on the P-47 in the photo, one on each pylon ----
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I realise that and indeed had even posted the same back at Reply #63 of this thread. My question related to what you were trying to say with the comment in your post above.
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Well it was in response to your cannon armed P-47 sketch in the previous post Greg ----- maybe it didn't come out right ---
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I'm reposting Jeff's reply which is #65 on the .50 cal vs 20mm debate.
The ammunition feed on the P-47 Thunderbolt was arranged so that each of the feed chutes carrying the linked belts ran over the top of each machine gun to feed the gun next to it. All of that still fit under a smooth wing panel.
Similar feed systems for the 20mm cannon were available and the F4U Corsair was set up in a similar arrangement so applying that technology to a P-47 Thunderbolt would make perfect sense if the USAAF had not been so stubborn in sticking with the simplicity of the .50 Browning machine guns they appeared to favour for fighter and ground attack aircraft.
I recall reading about this machine gun vs cannon issue during the Korean War where the USAF and USN each flew an aircraft in a comparison test against truck targets. I believe it was a USAF Mustang (.50 machine guns) and a Navy Corsair (20mm cannons) that flew the test. The target was a truck and each weapon type did what it was supposed to do and shredded the target. The 20mm cannon did so with fewer rounds expended and obviously proved the point that a 20mm or 30mm cannon armed attack aircraft were obviously much better at destroying ground targets than an aircraft armed with machine guns that had at best only API/API-T as the damage mechanism to destroy the target. The USAF did not change their mind even in the face of such obvious and overwhelming results, they stuck with their decision to continue to use the .50 machine gun.
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I think having 20mm in the wings like how the .5's were installed would create quite a problem ---
For example in this photo, the ammo feeds into the front of the breach block on the .5's, but more to the rear end of the 20mm. The cannon would have to be staggered I think with one like where Greg has positioned the cannon in his sketch but the other further forward so that the ammo could be stored in the rear half of the ammo bay without too much wing redesign involved.
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Or --- maybe like this as it is in a Typhoon
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Or --- maybe adopt the Martin Baker solution in the MB5 where the ammo bins were turned 90 degrees and laid parallel to the cannon sides, which was similar in layout as the Typhoon. The MB way allowed for more ammo to be carried ---
EDIT: then the unused ammo bays could be made into fuel tanks --- ;)
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Looking at this photo of a 20mm and a .5 together in a Spitfire wing, it would seem that the two cannon in the P-47 wing could be spaced a bit wider apart.
You could then have the ammo bins in between them parallel to the cannon sides, one lying forward and the other backwards. The cannon would have to be staggered a bit I think for that --
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With this renewed interest in larger calibre weapons on the P-47 why not amp it up a bit further and just go with a single 30mm ADEN along side a single .50 BMG? It would make an interesting what-if in AdA service too with the DEFA 30mm instead of the ADEN. The Typhoon and Sea Fury would also benefit from something similar.
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I like that idea Jeff --- :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: But you wouldn't need the .5 ----
But the ADEN and DEFA didn't come about until after the Allies got hold of the Mauser MK.213 and from what I've read, the two cannon were direct copies of it. So until then it wouldn't have happened during the war. I have also read that Hispano did have a design for a 30mm along the lines of their 20mm during the late years of the war, maybe that would be a better train of thought.
I've got a couple of P-47N's in the stash (one part built), I think I'll build one with the 20mm as the discussion has gone ------
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I went a step further with this project, armed with a pair of 35mm Oerlikon revolver cannon but they would be really long guns for the P-47
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A nice Twinbolt 8) Tho the fuselage is a bit small for the rest of the aircraft, maybe add a small internal bombay aft ?
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A nice Twinbolt 8) Tho the fuselage is a bit small for the rest of the aircraft, maybe add a small internal bombay aft ?
The tail looks like it was taken from a Gloster meteor and the lack of wings beyond the engine nacelles is unfortunate but the in-action artwork certainly makes up for all of that. A twin-engine Thunderbolt with a nose full of cannon and machine guns would be quite formidable not to mention frightening to anything it considered a target.
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Small Brown Dog is a CG (pixel) artist whose work includes alternate aircraft, where the engines provide anti-gravity lift through a device attached (usually) to the rear of the engine & propellers provide motive power.
That design is not a twin P-47, it's an alternate universe equivalent to the P-47.
Check out his work in the Profiles & Pixels forum; http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=8710.0 (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=8710.0)
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Here's an idea I recently had. Use a P-43 Lancer as the basis for a "what if" Reggiane development. Instead of going slimmer and sleeker, have Reggiane continue going down the radial route and make and Italian equivalent to the Bloch MB 157 or the Focke Wulf Fw 190. The best engines I can think of for this application would be imported BMW 801s from Germany, just as the Re.2001 used imported or license-built DB 601s. Maybe modify the canopy and/or landing gear to make it a little less "American"?
(https://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/cleaver/us/usaaf/fighter/tc43d.jpg)
Reggiane Re.2004bis Lanciere
You might need a donor BMW 801 from a different kit like a Do 217 because of the Fw 190s wing root stuck in the BMW 801's cowling.
(https://imodeler.com/uploads/2018/05/l/lgardner_180530_5b0ee9383ee9a-800x600.jpg?v=1527703864)
Anyway, just an idea, feel free to take it as your own or play with it.
Cheers,
Logan
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The best engines I can think of for this application would be imported BMW 801s from Germany, just as the Re.2001 used imported or license-built DB 601s.
Or perhaps a more developed version of the Fiat A.80
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Quite possibly, especially for a prototype. I just thought using a P-43 as a basis for a Reggiane mid-war "what if" might throw some people.
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Great idea Logan! I can see this concept working with a range of engines. Greg's Fiat A.80 suggestion put another Italian 18-cylinder radial into mind - the Piaggio P.XXII R.C.35 (or P.XXII R.C.60).
I may have to 'borrow' your concept. I once came at this from the opposite direction - the Reggiane Re.2000 re-imagined as a Seversky product :D
-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg47100#msg47100
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Great idea Logan! I can see this concept working with a range of engines. Greg's Fiat A.80 suggestion put another Italian 18-cylinder radial into mind - the Piaggio P.XXII R.C.35 (or P.XXII R.C.60).
I may have to 'borrow' your concept. I once came at this from the opposite direction - the Reggiane Re.2000 re-imagined as a Seversky product :D
-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg47100#msg47100
Please! Be my guest. I love seeing what you do with musings like that. Keep up the great work!
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Great idea Logan! I can see this concept working with a range of engines. Greg's Fiat A.80 suggestion put another Italian 18-cylinder radial into mind - the Piaggio P.XXII R.C.35 (or P.XXII R.C.60).
I may have to 'borrow' your concept. I once came at this from the opposite direction - the Reggiane Re.2000 re-imagined as a Seversky product :D
-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg47100#msg47100 (https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg47100#msg47100)
Please! Be my guest. I love seeing what you do with musings like that. Keep up the great work!
I been mulling over the past few years the idea to merge the P-35 and the Reggiane R.200x. You can get a 6 pack:
(https://www.kingkit.co.uk/uploads/shop/large/P3060031.JPG)
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Cheers Logan :smiley:
... I been mulling over the past few years the idea to merge the P-35 and the Reggiane R.200x. You can get a 6 pack:
Cool! You can pretty much image any of those Reggiane's as a Seversky/Republic product. Well ... maybe changing those Daimlers for Allisons ;D
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(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/1656041823940-png.674899/)
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/1656041938942-png.674902/)
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/1656041869991-png.674900/)
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/1656041893415-png.674901/)
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/1656058954357-jpeg.674921/)
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Found online:
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/p-47n-twin-long-span-resized-jpg.699363/)
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How about a production P-72 with the P-47N wing and four 20mm cannon? Perhaps, also, with a five-bladed prop to use all the R4360's power without the more complicated gearbox that a contra-prop would require?
Going the other way to Reggiane, perhaps an Re2005 or Re2006 variant with a wing plan view like that of the P-47N?
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How about a production P-72 with the P-47N wing and four 20mm cannon? Perhaps, also, with a five-bladed prop to use all the R4360's power without the more complicated gearbox that a contra-prop would require?
It would appear Evan that the box I bought had a manufacturing defect as you read my mind.
(https://external-preview.redd.it/free-hat-in-every-box-v0-oiTzKvyGhfDorqaZGxTQBfFFvsaXsNSMTKAqzwpUO1M.jpg?auto=webp&s=cfcd22505142f09c1e7aebc31b54ebdf7a52c807)
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Nope!! Just a case of great minds thinking alike!
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Found online:
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/p-47n-twin-long-span-resized-jpg.699363/)
WWWOOOWWW love this !!!! :-* :-*
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Cool, but it suffers from the same problem as almost all of these twin-conversions, it ends up too short-coupled,
the rear fuselage needs lengthening. Also where are the turbo-superchargers? On top of the nacelles ala the P-38
might work.
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Cool, but it suffers from the same problem as almost all of these twin-conversions, it ends up too short-coupled,
Agree, needs longer fuselage & bigger fin/rudder. Just ask a Boomerang pilot what happens when you try to land on bumpy ground with a short aircraft :o ((clean undies needed))
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I been mulling over the past few years the idea to merge the P-35 and the Reggiane R.200x. You can get a 6 pack:
Odd variation, advanced Re2005/Re2006 development with the wing planform similar to that of the P-47N. Equip with either a suitable Merlin or Griffon (or, if the spares ar there, simply keep the DB605 (Re2005) or DB603 (Re2006)).
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How about a P-47P or P-47R combining the best aspects of the XP-47J and the P-47N. Perhaps the P-47P retaining the machine guns in the wing while the P-47R repalced them with 20mm cannon.
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From what I've read Evan, the XP-47J was redesigned as a 'light weight' P-47, wings got a total make over. The complete opposite to the P-47N ----
But I like the idea with the P-47N and XP-72 combo --
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I am selling some of my stash on FB as I know I would never get around to building it.
My stash is 95% impulse buy and 5% need.
I am selling this P-47 conversion :
(https://d26qn1y84zs32g.cloudfront.net/pics/KORC7203.jpg?t=)
Then this group member says: "My uncle Thurman Schreel was instrumental in building the Category E P-47 in England!" and sends me this photo:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52666723211_7cca2f6e5d_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oeYHVV)
P-47WW (https://flic.kr/p/2oeYHVV) by Big Gimper (https://www.flickr.com/photos/21812089@N02/), on Flickr
That's his uncle on the left in the light coveralls.
Now how cool is that?
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:smiley:
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(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/rocaf-p-47s-1-jpg.703651/)
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Interesting - national symbol on port wing - white cross on starboard wing & red(?) cross on fin -- games identification ?
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Another odd combination that would look intresting, XP-47H and P-47N for a rather different look.
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Do we need a separate Reggianne page ?
Panther G's Re.2000's here ....
https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=378.msg212258#msg212258
P-35's bought from the US instead of Oz making Boomerangs ??
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Do we need a separate Reggianne page ?
We now do - see here (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=10884.new#new)
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Random idea: RAF PRU P-47 in PRU Blue with all guns removed and with recon cameras.
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Random idea: RAF PRU P-47 in PRU Blue with all guns removed and with recon cameras.
Might there be enough volume available in the now empty magazines and gun bays for a forward facing camera in each wing to provide stereoscopic imagery along the line of flight?
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:smiley:
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Love Twin Thunderbolt :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
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Random idea: RAF PRU P-47 in PRU Blue with all guns removed and with recon cameras.
Razorback or Bubbletop?
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Random idea: RAF PRU P-47 in PRU Blue with all guns removed and with recon cameras.
Razorback or Bubbletop?
Either...both...
There were some real world RP-47Bs, which involved a handful of P-47Bs modified into photo-reconnaissance aircraft with a camera mounted in the port intercooler vent. I am thinking of something more substantial though, a bit like the PRU Spitfires.