Author Topic: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 88892 times)

Offline Acree

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #100 on: May 26, 2017, 04:02:44 PM »
Oh, my!   :-* :-\

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #101 on: May 27, 2017, 03:39:49 AM »
Nice!
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Offline jcf

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #102 on: May 27, 2017, 05:10:13 AM »
Freakin' huge based on canopy size.  :icon_fsm:
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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #103 on: May 27, 2017, 05:16:02 AM »
True - what are we talking about?  Maybe a 1.5 - 2 times increase?
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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #104 on: May 29, 2017, 11:46:33 PM »
^ That is soooo gorgeous!  :-*
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #105 on: October 17, 2017, 10:04:51 AM »
Odd thought, an Italian upgrade beyond the F-104ASA with the J79 replaced by a modern engine (RB.199, EJ200, F404/F414, or PW1120), modern avionics, and carrying Meteor missiles instead of Sparrows.

Offline finsrin

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #106 on: October 17, 2017, 11:35:25 AM »
Odd thought, an Italian upgrade beyond the F-104ASA with the J79 replaced by a modern engine (RB.199, EJ200, F404/F414, or PW1120), modern avionics, and carrying Meteor missiles instead of Sparrows.

Is a good thought !

Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #107 on: October 17, 2017, 12:16:37 PM »
Perhaps also with IRIS-T missiles in place of Sidewinders?

Offline finsrin

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #108 on: December 03, 2017, 09:07:14 PM »
Oh, oh, oh  :smiley:

Offline Geoff

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #109 on: March 19, 2018, 07:29:34 AM »
Odd thought, an Italian upgrade beyond the F-104ASA with the J79 replaced by a modern engine (RB.199, EJ200, F404/F414, or PW1120), modern avionics, and carrying Meteor missiles instead of Sparrows.

Is a good thought !

That would require different intakes I suppose??

Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #110 on: March 19, 2018, 08:43:39 AM »
Odd thought, an Italian upgrade beyond the F-104ASA with the J79 replaced by a modern engine (RB.199, EJ200, F404/F414, or PW1120), modern avionics, and carrying Meteor missiles instead of Sparrows.

Is a good thought !

That would require different intakes I suppose??
Nope, I believe the airflow for most of those is close to that of the J79; certainly the PW1120 was to replace the J79 in Phantom II's without inlet change and it is the most powerful of those listed.

Offline SebastianP

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #111 on: March 19, 2018, 11:21:53 AM »
Hmm. I had a look around and it turns out I have nozzles for most of the engines under discussion in the thread laying around, as well as an F-104G kit, all in 1/72, so I did bit of comparing. No photos because I have crap lighting and I seriously need to clean my workbench, but here are some verbal findings:

General Electric J79 (Revell F-4F): Since I had the kit in the same box (60th anniversary of the Luftwaffe gift set), I figured I'd check if they were the same size. They are - though the build process is different and you can't use the Phantom nozzles in the F-104 kit without cutting off the burner can and installing it separately. It does mean that any engine you can install in the F-104, you can install in the Phantom, though.

General Electric F110 (Revell F-16C-50): Forget it, the nozzle on the F-16 is so big you could stick the J79 nozzle inside it with room to spare. While I know "physically impossible" tends to be answered with "challenge accepted", this just wouldn't work without an entirely new tail.

General Electric F404 (Academy F/A-18C): I couldn't find the actual nozzles, but it looks like they're a tiny bit smaller in diameter than the J79 nozzles. They're also longer, and in the contracted position, rather than fully open like the J79 nozzles, so they'd look very different.

General Electric F414 (Italeri JAS-39 Gripen): I actually have a Revell Super Hornet I was looking for the parts to so I could compare those, but I couldn't find it. Checking the Gripen nozzles against the tail end of the Revell kit though says they're the same size. And the Gripen nozzle is also the same diameter as the J79 nozzle. Like the F404, they're molded in the contracted position, and they're kind of long (even longer than the F404s) so they'll stick out further from the fuselage shroud thingy around the F-4's exhausts.

General Electric F101 (Revell B-1B): Tested this for a laugh, if the F-16 nozzle was large then this is ridiculous. If the B-1B nozzles were fully open, you could fit the F-16 nozzles inside them like you could the J79 into the F110... (While I was looking for nozzles I also found an F100 nozzle from Revell's F-15E in 1/48 - it's only a little too large for the B-1's engine mounts!)

Eurojet EJ200 (Revell Typhoon): The nozzles for these, while available in both open and closed in the same kit, and therefore leaving you with a spare pair of nozzles after every build, are also sadly *slightly* smaller in diameter than the J79 nozzles. You may be able to make it work however.

Turbo Union RB199 (Revell Tornado): These are around the same diameter as the EJ200 engines, but they only come in the fully dilated position, and it has those thrust reversers which won't fit inside the engine shroud on the F-104 (or the F-4). I think this would be kind of difficult to execute.

Pratt and Whitney F100 (no manufacturer): I actually don't have any of these except the F-16 version which is just as huge as the others. I have built a few F-15 kits though, and the F100 as presented on those is a little smaller in diameter. Not sufficiently to fit on the F-104 though.

Pratt and Whitney TF30 (Esci F-111A): These are, once again, a bit too large for the F-104, plus they're in the dilated position, which means they're really short and would not be visible from any aspect except the rear. TF30 engines from a Tomcat kit with converged nozzles would stick out more.. but they still wouldn't fit due to the larger diameter.

SNECMA M88 (Hobby Boss Rafale C): I didn't actually find these but I found the airframe and the part where the nozzles connect to. These are similar in diameter to the EJ200 nozzles, i.e. slightly too small for the F-104, but possibly doable.

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #112 on: March 19, 2018, 03:34:42 PM »
Found it on http://conceptships.blogspot.rs/ Starstealth, Darkfighter,...?  ;)


Perfect!  :smiley:

Offline Geoff

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #113 on: March 19, 2018, 07:05:44 PM »
Thanks - - - - hmmm

 ;)

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #114 on: March 19, 2018, 07:23:13 PM »

General Electric F414 (Italeri JAS-39 Gripen): I actually have a Revell Super Hornet I was looking for the parts to so I could compare those, but I couldn't find it. Checking the Gripen nozzles against the tail end of the Revell kit though says they're the same size. And the Gripen nozzle is also the same diameter as the J79 nozzle. Like the F404, they're molded in the contracted position, and they're kind of long (even longer than the F404s) so they'll stick out further from the fuselage shroud thingy around the F-4's


Errr...apart from the most recent Gripen E/F, of which I'm pretty sure there is no kit yet, all the Gripens have RM12 engines which are essentially GE F404s.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #115 on: March 19, 2018, 11:46:34 PM »
To do a PW1120 engine, you need to use a 1/72 F100 nozzle on a 1/48 F-104 or a 1/100 F100 nozzle on a 1/72 F-104.  The non-dimensionalized contours are the same, just scaled down, much as the F404/RM12/F414 nozzle contours are scaled up for the F110/F101DFE.

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #116 on: March 20, 2018, 01:59:58 AM »
What I wanted to qualify as 'Perfect' is this. :smiley:

« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 02:09:22 AM by ysi_maniac »

Offline Geoff

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #117 on: March 20, 2018, 02:19:23 AM »
So, an EJ-200 powered T/F-104G-ASA with the original intakes is ok. What about the C of G? The engine is shorter than the J-79, and lighter, so it could be mounted further back without lengthening the overall length of the aircraft - is that right/OK for a Wif?     ???

Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #118 on: March 20, 2018, 03:06:10 AM »
Works for this engineer.

Offline Geoff

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #119 on: March 20, 2018, 03:42:06 AM »
Works for this engineer.

 ;)

I have a cunning plan probably in 1/144th

Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #120 on: March 20, 2018, 07:35:53 AM »
What I wanted to qualify as 'Perfect' is this. :smiley:



Presumably it drops its tip tanks when it needs to go "full stealth" as they make, both by themselves and in the sharp intersections with the leading and trailing edges, excellent radar reflectors.  You might be able to reduce it by making them of composite with RAM incorporated in it, but that still leaves the intersections to create reflectors.

Offline SebastianP

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #121 on: March 20, 2018, 08:02:26 AM »
If you're going full sci-fi like that, there's always this thing (which I was astonished not to see in the thread already):



The Sv-152 Svärd Variable Fighter (i.e. it transforms into a robot), designed by Shoji Kawamori. This is one of like three images that exists of it, it only featured as stills in flashbacks in Macross Delta, but despite some people's initial interpretations, this is very clearly an F-104-derived design...

Offline kitnut617

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #122 on: March 20, 2018, 08:34:14 PM »
What I wanted to qualify as 'Perfect' is this. :smiley:



Presumably it drops its tip tanks when it needs to go "full stealth" as they make, both by themselves and in the sharp intersections with the leading and trailing edges, excellent radar reflectors.  You might be able to reduce it by making them of composite with RAM incorporated in it, but that still leaves the intersections to create reflectors.


Or have them shaped like those multi-mission pods the F-35 is getting.

Offline Zaskar24

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #123 on: March 21, 2018, 08:18:30 AM »
If you're going full sci-fi like that, there's always this thing (which I was astonished not to see in the thread already):



The Sv-152 Svärd Variable Fighter (i.e. it transforms into a robot), designed by Shoji Kawamori. This is one of like three images that exists of it, it only featured as stills in flashbacks in Macross Delta, but despite some people's initial interpretations, this is very clearly an F-104-derived design...


Thank you for posting this on Sebastian. I have a line drawing of this one but no color shots.

You can definitely see the F-104 lineage of the design.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #124 on: July 23, 2018, 08:26:18 AM »
Thinking of a F-104J-Kai with bits of the F-104ASA from Alenia, possibly sharing a radar with the Mitsubishi F-2, as well as a re-engining with PW1120 or F404 or F414; perhaps borrow a canard set from a Kfir to add to the mix for color.

Addendum: Armament would be a mix of Japanese AAM-3 and AAM-4 missiles.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 09:30:07 AM by elmayerle »