Beyond The Sprues
Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Aero-space => Topic started by: Jeffry Fontaine on January 08, 2012, 03:33:47 PM
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A place to share ideas on the Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
Click for larger image
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Douglas_A-20G_Havoc.jpg/300px-Douglas_A-20G_Havoc.jpg) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-20_Havoc)
(image source: Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-20_Havoc)
Link to the Douglas A-20 Havoc/Boston/DB-7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-20_Havoc) page at Wikipedia
Link to the Douglas A-20G Havoc (http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Museum-Exhibits/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/196256/douglas-a-20g-havoc/) page at the National Museum of the US Air Force
***Edit to fix broken links :(
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They may have actually done this, but what about a Russian A-20 fitted with Russian engines.
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Better yet, how about a pair of Allison's or something similar? That would certainly give the Havoc a different look with a brace of V-12s instead of radials.
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Meet you half way: a pair of Klimov VK-105PF-2 V-12s...
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Bring the rear upper turret forward to near the wing spar. Bring cockpit closer to wing spar. Glass nose.
Flatten the horizontal tailplane.
Twin vertical tails.
Replace engines with appropriately sized British engines that have exhaust collector rings on the front. Hedgehog exhausts.
Conventional gear rather than tricycle.
Roundels, black undersides, and D-Day Stripes.
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Late WW2 or WW 46' - Gloss sea blue with those late war air group markings that were based on various shapes painted in white on the wing and tail. Armed with torpedo under the fuselage on an external rack and fuel tanks under the wings.
Maybe add provisions for RATO units at the rear of the fuselage aft of the bomb bay doors with provisions for four or six RATO units. In the real world there was an experimental rocket engine mounted in each nacelle to shorten take off runs. The Air Force Museum page on the Havoc has a couple of images showing the rockets in use.
Korean War - Gloss sea blue and air group markings for that era. Armed with 5.0" HVAR under the wings and fragmentation or cluster bombs carried internally. Providing close air support to UN forces.
Vietnam War - Gray finish as used on Farm Gate aircraft armed with additional stores pylons under the wings and fuel tanks mounted at the wing tips. USAF or RVNAF markings would work. Gun nose of course! Retired and replaced by the A-26K (B-26K).
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One of my whifs I decided NOT to do (purged my 2000+ models stash instead) was a Soviet torpedo-bomber version (they actually had them) but with a "Turbinlite" searchlight in the nose for night torpedo attacks. The Turbinlite, like the "Tucker" autos, would turn toward the target (for aiming AND blinding the ship's gunners) whilst the A-20 pointed ahead for the torpedo drop.
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One of my whifs I decided NOT to do (purged my 2000+ models stash instead) was a Soviet torpedo-bomber version (they actually had them) but with a "Turbinlite" searchlight in the nose for night torpedo attacks. The Turbinlite, like the "Tucker" autos, would turn toward the target (for aiming AND blinding the ship's gunners) whilst the A-20 pointed ahead for the torpedo drop.
That would pretty much mirror the Keep It Simple approach of the Russians. I remember seeing a couple of images of a 1/48th scale model A-20 in Russian markings with a torpedo strapped to one side on one of the modeling forums. Apparently they were set up to carry two if necessary though the range with a pair of torpedoes would have been significantly reduced. It did look interesting nonetheless.
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Twin vertical tails.
The 131st DB-7 built on the French contract was built with a twin-tail empennage.
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And wouldn't ya know:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4584636782/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4584636782/#)
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I have to say, that RAF fin flash on the front of the vertical stabilizers is UGLY in a twin tail configuration. The comment under the photo is wrong on the matter, too.
Depending on the timing of the photo, the roundels may be painted over because France had capitulated to Germany by the time this photo was taken. Still, the tail flash on the rudders betrays its original French purchaser. DB-7s ordered by the French, but not delivered to France before their surrender, were eventually delivered to Great Britain.
Those may have been repainted, but I doubt it. That's RAF camo with RAF markings and an RAF serial number. There's not a French drop of paint on the plane that I can see.
Great photo, though, thanks for posting it!
Cheers,
Logan
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According to Monografie Lotnicze, both the twin & single tailed aircraft are French with serials U-131 & U-101 respectively. Whilst I concur that the rudder markings of the tricolour were a French 'thing' whilst fin markings were RAF, the fact that the darker colour is leading suggests it to be blue, which would indicate a French machine. In B/W photos, one routinely notices blue to be a darker colour than red.
Regards,
John
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I know they were ordered by the French and given French serials. That I don't dispute. But, the aircraft as depicted in the photo were painted exclusively for the RAF, of that I have no doubt. If it ever was painted for the French, it's been painted over, including any national markings. On the DB-7s built for the French, Douglas painted no fuselage roundels, no camouflage, and never tail stripes on the vertical stabilizer--always on the rudder with aircraft type and serial painted over it in black.
In 1940, the world of black and white film was still in transition. Many types of black and white film were orthochromatic, the standard of the 1920s and earlier. By the 1940s, most film was panchromatic, but not all. We're used to panchromatic black and white photography in which blue is darker than red, but orthochromatic film, common in the 1930s and still around in the 1940s, is the opposite, with red being darker.
An old Kodak advertisement for "new" (1930) panchromatic movie film helps to illustrate this better.
(http://www.photo.net/learn/optics/edscott/panortho.jpg)
ORTHOCHROMATIC ----------<>---------- PANCHROMATIC
Take a look at two Hawker aircraft photographs in British service, the first from around 1935, the second from late 1941.
(http://www.raf-upper-heyford.org/UH_AC_1930s.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Hawker_Hurricane_IIA_NACA2.jpg/640px-Hawker_Hurricane_IIA_NACA2.jpg)
See? The roundel colors (blue, white, and red from the outside to the inside) are, in real life, very similar, but in this photograph they are very, very different shades of gray.
The actual shade of blue may be off, but I'm sure it goes Red->White->Blue from front to back. I think it's just the film or lighting. See these scans from Squadron/Signal's "A-20 Havoc in Action", pages 7 & 8.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/loganov/Profiles/Scrapbook/Douglas_A20_Havoc_in_Action_144.jpg)
I apologize for the poor quality of the scan, but you can still see the darker red in the fin flash on all three pictures of factory fresh DB 7As. It's even darker in actual book if you have it. Maybe it was orthochromatic film instead of panchromatic? You can also see the same painted-over RAF roundel and exact same camouflage patterns as the aircraft in the above photo.
Cheers,
Logan
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I'm certainly not going to assume one type of film used or the other and agree wholeheartedly that the machines appear to have RAF camouflage although the lack of RAF serials is puzzling as is the retention of the French ones as the RAF would have no system in place that would coincide with their format. Equally so, I previously agreed with the rudder/fin painting being indicative of a very early RAF machine.
I also agree that many of the photos in the S/S book have a dark area where red should be, suggesting the use of the film as you mentioned, but find it odd that there's no mention of the twin tailed machine that I could see (skimming the text) or even the photo which is quite unique and of a US airfield.
One wonders if the publication dates have any impact on the information supplied?
Anyhoo, either way, a unique aircraft and quite different from the norm.
Regards,
John
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find it odd that there's no mention of the twin tailed machine that I could see (skimming the text) or even the photo which is quite unique and of a US airfield.
One wonders if the publication dates have any impact on the information supplied?
Anyhoo, either way, a unique aircraft and quite different from the norm.
I can't say that I do. That's a limitation of the format, I think. The space is limited for text and details and Squadron prefers to devote more space to service variants rather than one-off experimental aircraft. Not including the photo could easily be a matter of not being aware of it or not having access to it for inclusion. I have dozens of the "in Action" books and I can't say I'm that surprised that the one on the A-20 is silent about the twin tail DB-7.
I agree, though, that's a great shot of a rare plane.
Cheers,
Logan
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I know the twin-tailed DB-7 was pictured in American Combat Aircraft by Ray Wagner. I don't know that I've seen it elsewhere.
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For its age, that is a fantastic book, too.
Cheers,
Logan
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There is a head-on shot on page 272 of McDonnell-Douglas Aircraft since 1920: Volume 1, Rene J. Francillon, Putnam 1988.
No good for markings determination, but clearly shows the dihedral of the horizontal tailplane.
Cheers
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American Combat Planes has, IIRC, a very nice rear view of this aircraft.
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How about a pair of Allison V1710 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_V-1710) engines replacing the Wright R-2600 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_R-2600) radials?
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How about a pair of Allison V1710 ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_V-1710[/url]) engines replacing the Wright R-2600 ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_R-2600[/url]) radials?
Something like the installation on the YB-38? Or something a bit cleaner?
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I tried Allison engines & it didn't look very good :(
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s34/hobgrot/A20a.png)
so I tried the engine pods off an La-5FN & added twin 20mm to the belly-pack (ex-ferry-tank) :) :)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s34/hobgrot/A20fn.png)
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I have to be honest, the idea of an Allison-powered A-20 did not sound like a pretty variant to me. In fact, I figured it would be downright ugly. Despite my reservations, however, your profile looks quite lovely. I think part of it is the very natural Soviet markings on it. I don't think it would look as natural in US markings, which overwhelmingly favored radials for its bombers in WWII.
Cheers,
Logan
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Boston with Allison engines
([url]http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s34/hobgrot/A20a.png[/url])
Thanks for sharing the Havoc/Boston with the V engines. It certainly does give it a different look. I have enough A-20/Boston/Havoc kits in the stash to consider something like that if I can find a suitable pair of engine cowlings and propellers. The P-38 Lighting might be the best choice at this time. If the resin XB-38 engine conversion for the B-17 had been of better quality that could have been the best source for the parts but that is never going to happen. Of course propeller spinners always make things look better.
The ferry tank that fits on the bottom caught my interest when I first discovered the parts in the kit. If you take two of these tanks and glue them together you end up with a very interesting looking fuel tank or cargo pod shape. No idea what to hang it on yet.
The cannons mounted in the tank are a great idea. Should be room for a lot of ammunition and the spent casings and links can accumulate in the bottom of the pod to be disposed of later so as to not upset the balance of the aircraft.
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twin-boom supercharged-Allisons
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s34/hobgrot/A20tb.png)
Javoc (4 x Jumo-002s) with mono undercarriage
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s34/hobgrot/A20ju.png)
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Beautiful. Just had an odd thought (yes, I know, they are dangerous); how about a tandem-seat version similar to a tricycle-geared Beaufighter?
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Does anyone know if you can get a 1/48 conversion set to do the Soviet torpedo carrying A-20?
(http://www.bellabs.ru/51/A20/A20_Most.gif)
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Bit of an oddity:
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/douglas-a20-havoc_10_zps384850b0.jpg)
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wasn't that the trials aircraft for the same type of main u/c fitted to the B-36
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Carrier based attack and torpedo bomber? Perhaps more powerful engines in larger nacelles.
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Carrier based attack and torpedo bomber? Perhaps more powerful engines in larger nacelles.
You would need more powerful engines to cope with the increased weight of arresting gear and wing-folding gear as well as the general structural beef-up for carrier operations. It would be interesting to see such in USN three-tone blue camouflage.
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Carrier based attack and torpedo bomber? Perhaps more powerful engines in larger nacelles.
You would need more powerful engines to cope with the increased weight of arresting gear and wing-folding gear as well as the general structural beef-up for carrier operations. It would be interesting to see such in USN three-tone blue camouflage.
Yes exactly, Double Wasp with the wing pivot just outboard of the nacelles. Torpedo, forward firing 20mm, maybe even in a dorsal turret and a nose mounted radar.
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Perhaps as a competitor to the Grumman Design 55 (XTB2F-1) for the cancelled Avenger follow-on?
(http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww291/joncarrfarrelly/BTS/DES_55_01.jpg)
Grumman Design 55(XTB2F-1)
Span: 74'
Length: 52'
Max speed: 338mph
Ceiling: 31,600'
Range: 3,060 miles
Two 2,000hp R-2800-22
Two power turrets each with twin .50MG
Two fixed .50MG and 75mm cannon in nose
Two .50MG in each wing
Single torpedo or up to 36 100lb bombs in ventral weapons bay.
'Grumman Aircraft since 1929', Rene Francillon, Putnam/NIP
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As a subtle whiff, what about A-20s instead of B-25s in the 18 April 1942 Doolittle Raid?
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Never crossed my mind ;)
Suitably modified they may actually have been able to return to the carrier after the raid.
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Perhaps as a competitor to the Grumman Design 55 (XTB2F-1) for the cancelled Avenger follow-on?
([url]http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww291/joncarrfarrelly/BTS/DES_55_01.jpg[/url])
Grumman Design 55(XTB2F-1)
Span: 74'
Length: 52'
Max speed: 338mph
Ceiling: 31,600'
Range: 3,060 miles
Two 2,000hp R-2800-22
Two power turrets each with twin .50MG
Two fixed .50MG and 75mm cannon in nose
Two .50MG in each wing
Single torpedo or up to 36 100lb bombs in ventral weapons bay.
'Grumman Aircraft since 1929', Rene Francillon, Putnam/NIP
Mmmm.... off topic, but I could imagine a Tracker bashed into an attack bomber.
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Twin Float, TSR version, i.e. Torpedo, Spotter, Reconnaissance to be catapult launched from battleships and heavy cruisers ;D
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These are the first photos I have seen of the Turbinlite from the front.
(https://scontent.fxds1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/26850420_10204043428763326_1332470018552961231_o.jpg?oh=d6a56dc1ca76c30ee2f9555c0249f6f3&oe=5AE53B28)
(https://scontent.fxds1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/26804406_10204043432003407_6881391856644128737_n.jpg?oh=257f669ab6aa20565bd5c842e9229b0b&oe=5ADDDBE0)
(https://scontent.fxds1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/26731688_10204043432363416_2232182475721100283_n.jpg?oh=d4e825d78c35d782cfe6fb596bb23140&oe=5AEAD4F5)
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:smiley:
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Perhaps as a competitor to the Grumman Design 55 (XTB2F-1) for the cancelled Avenger follow-on?...
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg136414#msg136414 (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg136414#msg136414)
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Finding images of A-20 Havoc or Boston fitted with under-wing stores pylons appears to be quite the challenge. So, does anyone have a decent image showing such things or a drawing perhaps? Late model A-20 and Boston/Havocs were built with mounting points for two pylons under each wing. So far, all I have seen are images of late model A-20 Havocs armed with either smoke tanks (USAF Museum images) or the triple tube 4.5"/115mm rockets on a very flimsy looking mount. I was hoping for something that shows what the bomb capable pylons looked like. I suppose for a WHIF it really should not matter and should then focus on another Douglas product such as the SBD Dauntless or the AD/A-1 Skyraider for these pylons. But it would be nice to at least know what the real item actually looked like.
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Lousy images, but here's a couple of shots showing Boston and Havoc wing racks carrying bombs:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/flying_boat_films/3283884476/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/flying_boat_films/3283884476/)
https://www.joshuanava.biz/aircraft/images/1856_145_104-douglas-raf-boston-20j.jpg (https://www.joshuanava.biz/aircraft/images/1856_145_104-douglas-raf-boston-20j.jpg)
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Thanks. The rack shown in the first link is the type I am looking for and as usual, it is a crappy image. The second image shows the type of rack more often seen and it looks like something cobbled together in the shop. USAF Museum A-20G on display has that same type of rack. Unfortunately, not the one I am looking for.
One of my references has an image of an A-20 in the PTO with zero-length launcher stubs and loaded up with 5.0"/127mm HVARs, a most unanticipated discovery and quite a source for further what-iffery.
***Some kind soul at HyperScale shared a couple of images of the bomb rack in question (http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1521839828/last-1521861006/%28View+All+Messages+In+This+Thread%29). Plus additional images of the bomb rack I was not interested in. From the image it appears that there is no real pylon, just a bomb rack attached to the underside of the wing, very much like what was seen on the SBD Dauntless/A-24 Banshee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_SBD_Dauntless).
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One of my references has an image of an A-20 in the PTO with zero-length launcher stubs and loaded up with 5.0"/127mm HVARs, a most unanticipated discovery and quite a source for further what-iffery.
Would they be similar to the zero length stubs used on the Grumman Tracker Jeff ?. There's some photos of that in the Signal Squadron Tracker in Action book.
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One of my references has an image of an A-20 in the PTO with zero-length launcher stubs and loaded up with 5.0"/127mm HVARs, a most unanticipated discovery and quite a source for further what-iffery.
Would they be similar to the zero length stubs used on the Grumman Tracker Jeff ?. There's some photos of that in the Signal Squadron Tracker in Action book.
No idea Robert. What is seen in the image of the A-20 armed with rockets is a set of stubs extending down from the wing to carry the rocket.
Also, I just shared that image with you via eMail.
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Extended range fuel tank:
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/a-20g_ext-range-fuel-jpg.358315/)
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Came across some neat galleries (linked to on Britmodeller) while looking for info on the Special Hobby Boston Mk.III I'm currently building.
LINK #1 (http://axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?13700) - A-20 low level bombing training (in the US, I think)
LINK #2 (http://axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?411) - A-20 "Mosquito killers" - DDT-spraying in Italy
LINK #3 (http://axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?367) - A-20s of the 410th BG May 44 to May 45
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LINK #2 ([url]http://axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?411[/url]) - A-20 "Mosquito killers" - DDT-spraying in Italy
These could also be used as inspiration for a post war fire bomber conversion.
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:smiley: Yup. And see Link #1 for low level, pin-point delivery. ;D
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Photo of DB-7 with Torpedo:
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/demidov_03_700-jpg.368333/)
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ive been playing with the idea to (re)build a Belgian DB7, as they were ordered in 1939.
they were never delivred and the aircraft were transfered to the RAF, i think these were designated Boston Mk.I.
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That would look good.
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Does anyone know if there was ever a floatplane version of the A-20 or its family? I ask since I was recently looking at theBristol BolingbrokeMk III and Fokker T.VIII and noted that they were both about the same size, configuration and timeframe as the Boston and thus the old brain cells started working...
(http://www.vintagewings.ca/Portals/0/Vintage_Stories/News%20Stories%20K/Any%20Thing%20But%20Wheels/SkisandFloats39.jpg)(http://www.vintagewings.ca/Portals/0/Vintage_Stories/News%20Stories%20K/Any%20Thing%20But%20Wheels/SkisandFloats115.jpg)
(https://alchetron.com/cdn/fokker-tviii-f75952fc-498b-4213-b197-33f392aba8a-resize-750.jpeg)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/IWM-CH-1157-FOKKER-T-VIIIW.jpg)
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Well if you did put floats on an A-20, they would have to be as big as the ones put on the XC-47C, gross weights were very close to being the same.
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Quite possibly - pity there doesn't appear to be a 1/48 XC-47C conversion available.
I suppose I could use a 1/48 Model Design Construction Junkers Ju 52-3m Floatplane Conversion to get something of appropriate size and look:
(https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/8/7/6/167876-11439-pristine.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/31/a9/83/31a9835ea1805baa03d235b670ea309a.jpg)
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Quite possibly - pity there doesn't appear to be a 1/48 XC-47C conversion available.
I suppose I could use a 1/48 Model Design Construction Junkers Ju 52-3m Floatplane Conversion to get something of appropriate size and look:
(https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/8/7/6/167876-11439-pristine.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/31/a9/83/31a9835ea1805baa03d235b670ea309a.jpg)
I think those would work very well Greg. Some time ago I got this from somewhere, possibly the owner of Khee-Kha Art Products. It can be up or down scaled.
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The XA-20F was a single A-20A (39-725) fitted with upper and lower General Electric remotely-controlled power turrets, each mounting a pair of 0.5-inch machine guns. The turrets were controlled from a single sighting station. Although this experimental turret arrangement was not introduced onto the A-20 production line, it did provide valuable information for the later A-26 Invader program. Later, the aircraft was modified at Wright Field with a single fixed forward-firing 37-mm cannon in the nose.
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/reugflz-jpg.602851/)
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/051118-f-1234p-036-jpeg.599093/)
(https://arsenal-info.ru/img/2037453209/pic_90.jpg)
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(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/ww2rafsqnest132-jpg.659804/)