McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration

[Weaver]

I tried to reply to this earlier but hit tech issues that seem to have gone now.

I recall that the Atar Phantom was as offered as a potential Canberra replacement.  Now here’s a double barrel what if, Australia selects the Avon for their Mirage IIIEO fleet and as result McDonnell offers the same engine in the Phantom.

Triple Barrel:
Having determined that there was no realistic way Phantoms were going to be operated from Hermes or Victorious, let alone Centaur, combined with some concerning wind tunnel results on the drag associated with the Spey conversion of the Phantom, the RN, in conjunction with RR suggest an enhanced Avon variant instead.

End result the Avon Phantom ends up serving with Australia (F-4D/E/G RF-C), the UK (F-4M&K) and is also eventually adopted by France (a version of the K)

I don't think that would work for the RN. The whole point of adopting the Spey in the fisrt place was to get more low-speed thrust for take-off and go-arounds. The Avon could only barely get into J-79 territory on thrust and would still have been heavier, so if you can't have Spey's you're better off with regular J-79s for carrier work.

[Weaver]

Slightly off-topic: if the RAAF adopted a standardish Phantom, maybe instead of the F-111, you could plausibly have them convert their Mirages to a 'Kfir-ish' standard with J-79s for compatibility.

[Volkodav]

I tried to reply to this earlier but hit tech issues that seem to have gone now.

I recall that the Atar Phantom was as offered as a potential Canberra replacement.  Now here’s a double barrel what if, Australia selects the Avon for their Mirage IIIEO fleet and as result McDonnell offers the same engine in the Phantom.

Triple Barrel:
Having determined that there was no realistic way Phantoms were going to be operated from Hermes or Victorious, let alone Centaur, combined with some concerning wind tunnel results on the drag associated with the Spey conversion of the Phantom, the RN, in conjunction with RR suggest an enhanced Avon variant instead.

End result the Avon Phantom ends up serving with Australia (F-4D/E/G RF-C), the UK (F-4M&K) and is also eventually adopted by France (a version of the K)

I don't think that would work for the RN. The whole point of adopting the Spey in the fisrt place was to get more low-speed thrust for take-off and go-arounds. The Avon could only barely get into J-79 territory on thrust and would still have been heavier, so if you can't have Spey's you're better off with regular J-79s for carrier work.

Hence why I specified the RN decided not to use the Phantoms from their smaller carriers, the extra thrust was primarily for the small carriers as standard Bs and Js could launch and recover from Eagle and Ark. Besides, as far as I am aware, all, including the later Avons, were actually smaller and lighter than the J-79.

What would have been really interesting is the RB106, a 21000lb+ engine designed as a drop in replacement for the Avon.  There's your improved FAA Phantom or even enhanced USAF versions with the proposed licence built Westinghouse version.

[GTX_Admin]

Slightly off-topic: if the RAAF adopted a standardish Phantom, maybe instead of the F-111, you could plausibly have them convert their Mirages to a 'Kfir-ish' standard with J-79s for compatibility.

Crazy talk!!



From here

[KiwiZac]

Jesus, how many times have I told you lot to stop giving me ideas!!! Now I need to get an Italeri Kfir and a bloody Mirage, great! 

[Jeffry Fontaine]

^Nice profile!  :)

Maybe add a fuselage plug for additional fuel?  Something not too large that would upset c/g but just enough to give it a bit more time in the air. 

[taiidantomcat]

Brilliant! Why didn't I think of that!?

[Weaver]

Hence why I specified the RN decided not to use the Phantoms from their smaller carriers, the extra thrust was primarily for the small carriers as standard Bs and Js could launch and recover from Eagle and Ark. Besides, as far as I am aware, all, including the later Avons, were actually smaller and lighter than the J-79.

Yes, you're right: I'm getting mixed up. There is some aspect in which the J-79 is superior to the Avon though: fuel consumption maybe?

What would have been really interesting is the RB106, a 21000lb+ engine designed as a drop in replacement for the Avon.  There's your improved FAA Phantom or even enhanced USAF versions with the proposed licence built Westinghouse version.

Yes it's a real pity that one was cancelled isn't it?

[elmayerle]

J79 is likely more efficient than the Avon as it was the first production turbojet with variable stator vanes to optimize compressor performance over a wider range of conditions than fixed stator vanes would permit.  Indeed, the prototype engines that lead to it had the name of VSXE - Variable Stator Experimental Engine.  This is a different and more compact approach to an efficient engine than the twin-spool approach P&W pioneered; but both yield better efficiencies than a single-spool engine with fixed stators (like the Avon and ATAR 9).

I'm not certain the US government would trust an engine built by Westinghouse after the debacle that was the J40.  I'd reckon it more likely that a US version of the RB.106 would be produced by Allison rather than Westinghouse or, after the headaches of the J67, Curtiss-Wright.

[Volkodav]

Real world apparently Westinghouse were looking to manufacture the RB106 under licence before Duncan (Tool) Sandys cancelled the projects as there being no future fighters, there was no need for a future fighter engine.

[GTX_Admin]

Jesus, how many times have I told you lot to stop giving me ideas!!! Now I need to get an Italeri Kfir and a bloody Mirage, great! 

^Nice profile!  :)

Maybe add a fuselage plug for additional fuel?  Something not too large that would upset c/g but just enough to give it a bit more time in the air. 

Brilliant! Why didn't I think of that!?

Read the story for more inspiration...

[elmayerle]

Jesus, how many times have I told you lot to stop giving me ideas!!! Now I need to get an Italeri Kfir and a bloody Mirage, great! 

Already have the Italieri Kfir and have their Mirage IIIE on order.  This could be fun!  I need to have a suitable navalized F-4E to go with them.

[jcf]

Real world apparently Westinghouse were looking to manufacture the RB106 under licence before Duncan (Tool) Sandys cancelled the projects as there being no future fighters, there was no need for a future fighter engine.

Sandys didn't cancel anything, that was done by the Ministry of Supply under Aubrey Jones. The MoS, not the MoD
controlled R&D and procurement, and is the likely source of the R&D section of the '57 DWP and which was in turn, like
the DWP itself, a reflection of prior trends, and policies, that were already in process long before the DWP.

The British aerospace industry was a mess by 1957 with more manufacturers and projects than the exchequer could
support, the crash was going to come and it was not a matter of if, it was a matter of when.

[Volkodav]

I was still overall an ill-conceived policy of slash and burn with no thought given to supporting projects that would deliver not just defence capability but profitable exports and commercial applications.  Sandys was one of the main players in the mess no matter the actual minister signing off, too busy apparently enjoying a wild night life than doing his job.

With no requirement for the result of the R&D there is no requirement for the R&D.  With no local requirement there is also no critical mass to generate exports or commercial interest, for example, no Stratotanker, would there have been a 707?  Had the V1000 continued would the VC7 have been a success?

[jcf]

Well, that response demonstrates that you know nothing about Duncan Sandys or the realities of the UK aerospace industry in the period.

BTW the 707 and the 717(KC-135) both originated from the 367-80 and Boeing always intended an airliner development, the two
were, and are, inextricably linked.

[Volkodav]

Well, that response demonstrates that you know nothing about Duncan Sandys or the realities of the UK aerospace industry in the period.

BTW the 707 and the 717(KC-135) both originated from the 367-80 and Boeing always intended an airliner development, the two
were, and are, inextricably linked.

My sincere apologies I shall kowtow to your infinite knowledge and immediately forget everything I have read or learned that disagrees with your opinion.

Here we go again, while I appreciate your knowledge I do not appreciate your attitude as, intended or not, it does often come across as condescending and dismissive which gets my back up, particularly when I am dropping in here to kill time waiting for the pain killers that make my life bearable to kick in. 

That's my excuse for having a short fuse at times, what's yours? 

I come in here for pleasure, to admire the talent of others and to discuss topics of interest, not to be lectured in an manner I have never tolerated from anyone, as I have always found those who take a tone such as yours are more interested in the debate, winning the point and putting others "in their place" than actually discussing, sharing and learning. 

Try taking a less aggressive and condescending tack and you will find most, including myself will say things like "thankyou, I didn't realise that, I will look into it further as I find it interesting, etc.etc."  You are a moderator and should be facilitating the smooth running of the site for the enjoyment of all, not picking fights and initiating all to frequent bouts of one-upmanship every time you feel the urge to put those you see as inferior into what you see as their place.

Now I will sit back and await the inevitable PM asking me to pull my head in as the comments are deleted while you act superior and offended.  Enjoy your rivet counting, my oxycodone has kicked in and I am going to have a nap.

[Volkodav]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/aug/10/sarahhall

[jcf]

Here's a good dissertation on the subject if you're interested that puts things in context, along with the role of the MoS:
https://www.academia.edu/5873191/Duncan_Sandys_and_the_1957_Defence_White_Paper

You'll need to join Academia in order to download, it's painless. 

Yep, chronic pain sucks, along with chronic insomnia, depression and anxiety. I'm on a cocktail that has variable results that
tends to make me irritable.
  

I also have a lifelong habit of questioning all perceived truths and shibboleths, and what I've found over the years is that nothing
is ever as simple as 'the common knowledge' would proclaim.

Regards.

[jcf]

https://youtu.be/UrgpZ0fUixs

 

[Volkodav]

Here's a good dissertation on the subject if you're interested that puts things in context, along with the role of the MoS:
https://www.academia.edu/5873191/Duncan_Sandys_and_the_1957_Defence_White_Paper

You'll need to join Academia in order to download, it's painless. 

Yep, chronic pain sucks, along with chronic insomnia, depression and anxiety. I'm on a cocktail that has variable results that
tends to make me irritable.
  

I also have a lifelong habit of questioning all perceived truths and shibboleths, and what I've found over the years is that nothing
is ever as simple as 'the common knowledge' would proclaim.

Regards.

I've cut down to one main one, the pain is more but the fatigue is less, which is a price worth paying.  Prickliness is part of my nature but usually better controlled.

I know it wasn't just Sandys as there had been many others involved in what was in hindsight one of the most illogical periods of British history.  I understand the shortage of money, debt levels, even mismanagement within British industry, it actually reminds me of the last several years in the UK actually, where, in hindsight, every major decision seems to have been poorly conceived and executed. 

My background is engineering, predominantly R&D and product development but also quality, configuration, certification and continuous improvement.  This has resulted a lot of time digging back into the wheres, whys and hows, of the current/then situation and the number of times I have found smoking guns, where it was known and senior management, even government were told why they should / should not take a course of action.  The number of times the predictions were spot on was alarming, yet when things went pear shaped the smoking guns would disappear from everywhere except records retained for future development so as to protect the guilty. 

This is where I am coming from, the filter / bias that shapes my views of many decision makers, I have seen how things work over the last 20-30 years.  It has introduced a level of cynicism for the official version that tends to white wash events and especially for more recent rehabilitation of divisive characters from the past and the demonization of others.

[GTX_Admin]

[Daryl J.]

Spey Phantom.  Peace Jack Recce nose.
Sweden.  In splinter wrap around.

[Geoff]

Italian F-4 Frecce Tricolari

Phantoms at the back

[Zaskar24]

62-12200 was the only canard Rhino.  Looks hot IMHO.  Been wanting to model this machine for awhile but she's quite the mash up.  Thin, fixed slat wings, no front missile bays, I forget what else.

'
Dragging this one up from the front page. Any thoughts on what to use for the canards on this?  Thinking about slapping some onto a F-4EJ Kai to make a Super variant. Also going with the cans from GE F414's for more power at better fuel economy.

[elmayerle]

If you're going to model that one, note that it has an RF nose and an early Navy wing without the wheel bulges most later Phantom variants had (the various D&S volumes on the F-4 would be useful here).

For doing the canards, either thin plastic card laminations cut to shape and sanded to profile or see if the horizontals from a 1/144 Phantom II might provide a starting point.