Author Topic: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun  (Read 11737 times)

Offline tankmodeler

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Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« on: February 02, 2014, 11:33:21 AM »
There is a What If campaign starting over on Armorama. Based on the discussion here on an all-cast Churchill built by the Australians instead of the Sentinel, here's my backstory:

What If the Australians had decided to emulate the Churchill when they made their indigenous tank and not use components from the Sherman/Lee.

The Australian Cast Churchill w/ 87mm gun

With supplies of tanks from the UK being almost nonexistant, the Australians decided, like the other Dominions, to design their own tank to suit their purposes. Without an indigenous armour plate industry, cast homgeneous armour was seen as the way to go. The existing cruiser and infantry tanks had numerous shortcomings, but the Brits were making this new tank, the Churchill, and it looked very promising.

With the exception that the manufacturing method changed from welded plate to casting, the Churchill's hull and running gear were kept much as they were. Yes, shot traps were eliminated along with the side doors, but you could definitely tell it was a Churchill. The turret, though, was a different thing. The Aussies had had enough of the 2 pdr in the desert and knew it was useless as an infantry support weapon and nearly useless as an antitank weapon. They needed something better, but were not tooling up to make any of the larger AT guns themselves. What they were making was the 25 pdr. It had a very useful AT performance and was more than perfect for infantry support, the task they expected to use their tanks for most.

Having access to 25 pdrs and ammo, they took the initiative when putting the 25 pdr into their home-made Churchill and lengthened the 25 pdr's tube a little, adding about 24" to the length and taking full advantage of the slightly increased muzzle velocity to increase the armour penetration power of the 25 pdr's AP rounds while not sacrificing the performance or, more importantly, the interchangeability with the artillery rounds. The new recoil mechanism needed for the turret mount could easily absorb the higher recoil, but the increase in velocity and bore pressure wasn't enough to compromise the existing 25 pdr ammo.

To fit this much larger gun required a new turret. The Aussies took advantage of necessity and changed the turret design to eliminate the vertical sides and large flat front face of the Churchill turret. The new turret tapered toward the front and the sides were angled away from the vertical to increase both internal room and penetration resistance. The Commander's and Loaders hatches were mover further apart to clear the larger breech of the new tank gun and the loader actually found himself with a fair amount of room in which to load the larger ammunition. The rate of fire of the new tank gun was nearly as high as that of the artillery piece it was derived from.

Cast Churchills were supplied with 75 rounds of what was called 87mm ammo to distinguish the new fixed tank ammo from the separate-loading 25 pdr artillery ammo, but the shells were interchangeable with the artillery peices. 87mm AP rounds were the equivalent of the standard 25 pdr AP shot married to the super-charge filled casing and the HE round was the equivalent of the 25 pdr's HE round married to a casing filled with the artillery Charge 1. There being no need for extended range for the tank gun, fixed cartridges with different charges were not procured.

Late in the war, the Austrialian ordnance industry developed an APCBC round, but given the poor quality of the Japanese armour, this was not proceeded with.

While officially designated the Churchill Mk XX, they were universally called Winnies to distinguish them from the standard Churchills.

Several variants of the Winnie were built or prototyped. There was the Churchilll XXI, with an experimental attempt to fit a 17 pdr in a modified Winnie turret. The Winnie AVRE, a Churchill XX connerted to jungle AVRE configuration. The Churchill XXII, fitted with an American Flamethrower instead of the main gun which served in the jungle battles. And finally the Winnie ARK, which, like it's Churchill bretheren, was used to cross small rivers and streams.

The Winnie served faithfully until replaced by the Centurion although several Winnie AVREs and ARKs survived to serve in Vietnam until 1969 when they were finally clapped out and withdrawn.


My model will be an old Tamiya Churchill converted to a cast hull with a new turret and a main gun made from a lengthened Tamiya 25 PDR tube with muzzle brake.

Also, here's my start on the 25 pdr Churchill:

Still in the box:
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/28970/Start6.JPG[/img]
Next, the chopped and sectioned waiting to dry before getting a new shape.
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/28970/IMG_0489.JPG[/img]
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/28970/IMG_04871.JPG[/img]
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/28970/IMG_04881.JPG[/img]
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/28970/IMG_04862.JPG[/img]
So she's well underway!

Paul

Offline Buzzbomb

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2014, 11:40:40 AM »
Well certainly have my interest

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2014, 12:24:54 PM »
 :) Excellent!

I have the same kit and had been thinking of what to do with it.  I also have Matilda IIs in 1/72 and 1/48 that I am toying with turning into Australian production versions.

Online raafif

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2014, 01:17:55 PM »
interesting :)

I think I'd have a go at this but on a Valentine chassis - maybe with two or three Matilda turrets :D

Offline Claymore

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2014, 05:00:38 PM »
Absolutely excellent back story and a great idea for a kit-bash project.  You have my full attention.
An interesting construction technique too. Can't wait to see this one develop.  :)
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline father ennis

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2014, 04:40:37 AM »
 :-* :-* :-*
I may be old but I'm not dead ... yet anyway ... !!!    And NO I did not know Richard III !!!!!!

Offline Queeg

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2014, 08:10:10 AM »
The chopping / widening of the turret is brave, it's great seeing what's under the paint .............  8)

Brent

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2014, 07:33:54 PM »
Watching this with some interest.

Offline Alvis 3.1

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2014, 11:36:03 PM »
Oh boy, this is gunna be good!

Alvis 3.1

Offline dy031101

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2014, 12:44:43 AM »
Well well well......  :)
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2014, 11:37:11 AM »
The chopping / widening of the turret is brave, it's great seeing what's under the paint .............  8)

Brent
Actually the turret, per se, hasn't been widened (at least not in that picture). I moved the hatches further outboard to simulate the large breech between the loader & gunner.

Paul

Offline Feldmarschall Zod

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2014, 08:57:31 PM »
Hi Paul.

Off to a great start. This would have been a great infantry support tank.  8)
Every time you eat celery,an angel vomits in a gas station bathroom. Tanks rule. I know the load is late,but the voices tell me to pull over and clean the guns.

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2014, 09:42:40 AM »
OK, so an update on the Cast Churchill. I've been busy this week as I've got overtime coming and may not be
able to get back to it for a while.

The shaping of the hull and turret is pretty much complete and next is to add the bits and bobs to make it look like a real tank. The barrel shown is a dummy from the Tamiya kit, but there may be a big improvement on the way, so this one may go if it arrives. No more on that until I see what actually transpires!

[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/28970/IMG_05132.JPG[/img]
The Australian Churchill Mk XX "Winnie"!
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/28970/IMG_05142.JPG[/img]
Front view. Here you can see the shape of the turret really well as well as the new cast front of the hull. The bow gunner's position has moved forward, but it will be the same as in the normal Churchill except the MGs will be American Brownings instead of BESAs. You can see how the increased spacing of the hatches results in the little bulges in teh chined turret shape. Just what I was going for.

The turret really starts to remind one more of a cast Chaffee turret!
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/28970/IMG_05152.JPG[/img]
Rear 3/4 view. I'm possibly going to add a curved deflector for the lower air exit duct. Throwing up dust from the rear was a major problem on the Churchill and this would have helped a lot. Not sure why they never added deflectors to the actual Churchill???
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/28970/IMG_05162.JPG[/img]
Here you can see the chine in the hull and how the air inlets blend into the new shape.
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/28970/IMG_05193.JPG[/img]
The front of the turret and the mantlet. The mantlet is mostly there in shape, it just needs some final filing and scraping. And then a bit of texture and we're away! The opening nearest the camera is for the co-ax and the gunner's sight is on the other side.

Note the reinforcing lip at the bottom of the mantlet and on the front of the turret under the mantlet. No deflecting shots down into the driver for this tank!
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/28970/IMG_05201.JPG[/img]
Detail of the side of the turret. You can see the mould seam from the casting plus how the seam and the pour plugs or sprues were torch-cut away. There are three of these spread around the turret.
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/28970/IMG_05214.JPG[/img]
This is the main gun removal hatch. It's actually a spare resin copy from a Ram conversion I was scratchbuilding years ago. There will be a large stowage box that covers most of this area.

Hope you like!

Paul

Offline Feldmarschall Zod

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2014, 10:06:45 AM »
Paul.
Thanks for the update. That is some excellent work.
Every time you eat celery,an angel vomits in a gas station bathroom. Tanks rule. I know the load is late,but the voices tell me to pull over and clean the guns.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2014, 11:00:08 AM »
Looking good.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2014, 11:15:07 AM »
That really does look like a Chaffee turret.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2014, 11:35:27 AM »
Yes I was trying to work out why it looked familiar.

Looking good, can't wait to see it finished.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2014, 12:53:20 PM »
That does look interesting.  The "sprue" parts which were cut away would make excellent locating points for lifting hooks for the turret.   The casting effect is a bit exaggerated compared with the examples of the Sentinel that I've seen but that might perhaps be toned down once it's painted.  The hull front is interesting.  I do hope we won't be seeing the penis shaped MG cover that the Sentinel had?  While no doubt efficient, it always lent an air of the ridiculous to the tank, I felt.

Yes, the turret does look rather like that of an oversized M-24 but logically, that's what you end up with when doing what you're doing.  The gun withdrawal hatch is a nice touch but it looks a bit small for a 25 Pdr? 

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2014, 01:36:10 PM »
I do hope we won't be seeing the penis shaped MG cover that the Sentinel had?  While no doubt efficient, it always lent an air of the ridiculous to the tank, I felt.


What are you talking about, Rickshaw?  You mean this?   ::)



Cheers,

Logan

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2014, 01:42:19 PM »
At least you know it's a boy tank... ;D
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Claymore

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2014, 04:52:38 PM »
Wow. Very nice work.  The cast look and additional side and frontal sections gives the whole thing the air of a real heavyweight.  :)
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2014, 06:30:40 PM »
I do hope we won't be seeing the penis shaped MG cover that the Sentinel had?  While no doubt efficient, it always lent an air of the ridiculous to the tank, I felt.


What are you talking about, Rickshaw?  You mean this?   ::)



Cheers,

Logan


*SIGH*.  Sometimes you're as subtle as a sledgehammer...  ;D

I'd have had a poor time being a crewman in a Sentinel Regiment.  I'd have been too embarrassed.  I'd not know where to put my hands!   :-[

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2014, 07:50:23 PM »
Just got to wonder the psychological effect of having those baring down on a physically tough but modest enemy!

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2014, 08:35:23 PM »
I'd not know where to put my hands!
Pitty the poor hull gunner, sitting there with both hand waving that thing about spewing nasty stuff out the end! Oh, the ignominy of it all!!

Quote
The casting effect is a bit exaggerated compared with the examples of the Sentinel that I've seen but that might perhaps be toned down once it's painted.
It's not as bad in real life. Remember the photo is from about 2" away. :)

Quote
I do hope we won't be seeing the penis shaped MG cover that the Sentinel had? 
The MGs were brownings for exactly that reason.
Quote
The gun withdrawal hatch is a nice touch but it looks a bit small for a 25 Pdr? 
It's perhaps a touch small for a 25 pdr breech, but not by much. It's a fairly large hatch. The stowage box going over top will hide that a bit anyway.

The Churchill Mk VII had a much smaller circular cover for removal of the 75mm guns. It looks to me as if they would have had to remove the breech from the tub and only the tube would come out through the hole.

Offline Buzzbomb

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Re: Aussie Cast Churchill w/ 25 pdr main gun
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2014, 06:23:38 AM »
As a Churchill fan.. there is so much wrong with this.... but much, much more right !!!!
So the marginally powered Bedford engine will be replaced with something else I would suppose.

I am really getting a feel for you vision on this and liking it a lot.
Great work.