Author Topic: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft  (Read 1035 times)

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« on: June 02, 2022, 09:09:57 AM »
1: The Aérospatiale Autan «Avion de Patrouille Maritime»

As early-model Sud Aviation SE.210 Caravelle airliners began to 'age out', it became a matter of national pride for France to repurpose these airframes. Most would cycle through Toulouse for rebuilding as Caravelle ATFs - the cargo-carrying avion de transport de fret conversion. But other roles were also sought - the best-known being the Caravelle 'Zero G' aka vomi comète ('vomit comet') for the Centre national d'études spatiales.

Another potential conversion was for the maritime patrol role. Such a conversion would not be an anti-submarine aircraft. Rather, its emphasis would be longer-range and higher-speed patrols of customer states' territorial waters. The anticipated launch customer for this variant was France's Aéronavale ... which proved to have no interest whatever in this cast-off Caravelle conversion.

A less glamourous customer was la Douane française - the French customs authority. It was decided, at a political level, that these conversions would be completed for the patrol of France's zones économiques exclusives (ZEE - France's 200 nm EEZs). The rebuilt Caravelle IIIs were redubbed as the Aérospatiale AS.210 Autan SZMS (for surveillance des zones maritimes de souveraineté. [1]

In reality, much of what the Autan SZMS did was shipping and fisheries patrol. This was done using an underslung Thomson-CSF Iguane search radar and visual observation through cabin windows. Towards the end of this second career, the second Autan airframe was outfitted with Thomson-CSF Raphael side-looking airborne radar antennae and a chin-mounted Texas Instruments AN/AAS-26 infrared imager. Upon retirement from la Douane, this second Autan would be loaned out to the Société de Géographie, making full use of it Raphael SLAR for mapping purposes.

____________________________________________________

[1] The Autan is the dominant wind of the Toulouse area - birthplace of the Caravelle.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2022, 09:11:52 AM by apophenia »
"The trouble ... is that I am really doing it completely backward. Investigation is the only agenda I have. If people are asking for clarification, they will be out of luck." - William Gibson

Offline finsrin

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2022, 11:07:05 AM »
 Is good  :smiley:

Offline Kerick

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2022, 12:26:13 PM »
I do believe the Neptune was the last purpose built MRA aircraft in the US Navy even though it was more ASW. The P-3 Orion was once an Electra airliner and the new P-8s spring from the 737 line. I built a whiff 737 into a high wing Elint type a while back.



A MAD boom and Navy decals could revamp that. Hmmm... Flip the engines to the top of the wing, add a boat hull, seaplane MRA?
I wonder how many other airliners could become MRA or ASW types. Even the Nimrod was born out of a Comet airliner.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2022, 01:01:20 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2022, 03:51:35 AM »
I was thinking of a 737 along those lines Kerick but a bit more like this below.

Offline Kerick

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2022, 05:41:14 AM »
Adding a cargo ramp would be interesting. Maybe widen the whole fuselage and a T tail!

Offline RayS

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2022, 07:38:31 AM »
I do believe the Neptune was the last purpose built MRA aircraft in the US Navy even though it was more ASW. The P-3 Orion was once an Electra airliner and the new P-8s spring from the 737 line. I built a whiff 737 into a high wing Elint type a while back.



A MAD boom and Navy decals could revamp that. Hmmm... Flip the engines to the top of the wing, add a boat hull, seaplane MRA?
I wonder how many other airliners could become MRA or ASW types. Even the Nimrod was born out of a Comet airliner.

That turned out nicely Ken, great concept
*-*-*
Ray

Offline Kerick

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2022, 10:22:01 AM »
Thanks!
It was the Hasegawa 1/200th scale kit if I remember correctly.

It was back in the 80s I believe there was a contraction in the airline industry with a bunch of 747s becoming stacked up in the desert no longer in service. Some Congresspeople were pushing for the Air Force to buy them for cargo ops. USAF was not in favor but imagine if the Navy had bought some for MRA and ASW? With IFR and space for extra crew it could have stayed aloft for days. Internal bay for Harpoon missiles and ASW torpedoes. Equipped with ocean going J STARs equipment.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2022, 10:32:33 AM by Kerick »

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2022, 10:26:53 AM »
This one's not quite an airliner conversion ... unless the point stretched all the way back to the Vickers Viking.

Vickers Varsity MRT (Maritime Reconnaissance Trainer)

As the name says, the Vickers Varsity MRT was primarily a 'Maritime Reconnaissance Trainer'. As such, tyro Nimrod systems operators cut their teeth on the Varsity MRT. But, especially in the Summer months, the 'Martha' would also be put to work as short-range patrol aircraft - mainly over the Irish Sea. Fisheries patrol over the North Sea was another 'side gig' for the Varsity MRTs.
"The trouble ... is that I am really doing it completely backward. Investigation is the only agenda I have. If people are asking for clarification, they will be out of luck." - William Gibson

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2022, 02:41:33 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2022, 09:38:38 AM »
Another airliner conversion ...

"... just us and the gaping maw of the sky"

In 2017, the German government agreed a joint maritime patrol aircraft development project with France - the Maritime Airborne Warfare System (MAWS). However, the Bundesministerium der Verteidigung (BMVg, the German MoD) made clear that the Marineflieger's ex-Dutch Lockheed P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft would need replacing long before MAWS was due to bear fruit in 2030. Thus an 'interim' MAWS programme was initiated. Most analysts believed that this would ensure a German purchase of Boeing P-8A Poseidons - following the procurement pattern of many of Germany's NATO neighbours. But that was not to be.

With an national election looming, the governing coalition in Berlin was loathe to disrupt relations with France. At the same time, it came to political attention that relatively new Airbus airframes were being broken up for salvage. As these Airbus A318 airliners had been assembled in Hamburg, this was a blow to national pride. After consultation with Airbus Defence and Space Germany GmbH in Manching, Bavaria, a proposal was made to the French government to work together on an 'interim' MAWS based on ex-airline A318 airframes. Actual conversions would be performed at Manching for the Marineflieger and Toulouse for the Aéronavale. This scheme was agreed to in principle in January 2019.

Ad hoc Airbus MPA - the A318 SAF-MR

The equipment fit of the two national Airbus A318 MPA programmes differed. The German version would be the simplest - essentially repositioning the sensors and equipment from the retiring P-3C CUP Orions over onto the Airbus airframe. Titled Airbus A318 SAF-MR (Seeaufklärungsflugzeug-Mittlerer Reichweite) or 'Medium-Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft', airframe changes were kept to a minimum. Two noticeable alterations were noticeable. The snub nose of the A318 gave way to a longer, pointer snout to accommodate the P-3C's Inverse Synthetic Aperture Radar. [1] The other obvious change was the installation of the P-3C's MAD tail 'stinger' antenna. [2]

That MAD 'stinger' and its fairing displaced the A318's tailcone-mounted auxiliary power unit. That Pratt & Whitney APS3200 was relocated to a position in the wing fairings just aft of the main undercarriage wheel bays. Less obvious modifications included the installation of the P-3C's sonobuoy launch tube array in the rear fuselage. In the forward fuselage underside, the luggage hold was replaced by a weapons bay. [3] A pair of dismountable wing pylons were also provided with could carry either Taurus KEPD 350 or Kongsberg Naval Strike Missile. [4]

Image Airbus A318 SAF-MR of Marinefliegergeschwader 3 „Graf Zeppelin“, Fliegerhorst Nordholz (Lower Saxony).

__________________________________________

[1] This ISAR was Texas Instruments' AN/APS-137(V)5 long-range surface-search radar set.

[2] This magnetic anomaly detector set was CAE's 'legacy' AN/ASQ-81(V)1.

[3] The A318 SAF-MR's weapons bays were of similar construction to that of the P-3C but not as long.

[4] The Taurus KEPD 350 are Swedish/German air-launched cruise missile (formerly carried by MF Tornados). The Kongsberg NSM had just been adopted for Marine frigates. It is an anti-ship missile although, in theory, its JSM land-attack variant could also be carried by the A318 SAF-MR.
"The trouble ... is that I am really doing it completely backward. Investigation is the only agenda I have. If people are asking for clarification, they will be out of luck." - William Gibson

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2022, 08:47:41 PM »
There was a real proposal, based on the A320 wasn't it Stephen.

When BAe were revamping the Nimrod, I always wondered why they didn't use an A320 fuselage mated to the new wing they designed for the MPA.4

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2022, 12:39:00 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2022, 05:03:05 AM »
There was a real proposal, based on the A320 wasn't it Stephen.

That's right Robert. There's been a whole "MPA family" based around the A320 airframe. IRRC, the A320 MPA was first up, followed by the A319 MPA. Later, there was the A320neo-based A320M3A (Modular Multi-Mission Aircraft) - aimed at that joint French-German MAWS programme that I mentioned above.

AFAIK, there was never any 'A318 MPA' proposal ... so, I'm safe there  ;D

When BAe were revamping the Nimrod, I always wondered why they didn't use an A320 fuselage mated to the new wing they designed for the MPA.4

Hmmm, a four-engined A320 ASW! Kind of a Euro version of the Kawasaki P-1 ... I like it  :smiley:
"The trouble ... is that I am really doing it completely backward. Investigation is the only agenda I have. If people are asking for clarification, they will be out of luck." - William Gibson

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2022, 06:29:04 AM »

When BAe were revamping the Nimrod, I always wondered why they didn't use an A320 fuselage mated to the new wing they designed for the MPA.4

Hmmm, a four-engined A320 ASW! Kind of a Euro version of the Kawasaki P-1 ... I like it  :smiley:

I had a plan to build one  ---  one time. Plans have had to change ----  :-X

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2022, 12:50:02 AM »
That's right Robert. There's been a whole "MPA family" based around the A320 airframe. IRRC, the A320 MPA was first up, followed by the A319 MPA. Later, there was the A320neo-based A320M3A (Modular Multi-Mission Aircraft) - aimed at that joint French-German MAWS programme that I mentioned above.

AFAIK, there was never any 'A318 MPA' proposal ... so, I'm safe there  ;D

A320:



A good overview of the A319 here:  https://www.slideshare.net/aeroplans/a319-mpa-pocketguide

No A318 as far as I am aware.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2022, 01:05:09 AM »
Me and Carl have been discussing how we could build this below. Chris Gibson kindly supplied me with a nice 3-Veiw of what appears in his bookazine, The Air Staff and the AEW. The engines were to be RB410's and you'll notice it would have had Vulcan style main gear. In 1/72 scale the engine nacelles measure 72" diameter, I have a set of 1/144 scale RR Trents which measure that in 1/72.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 01:10:12 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2022, 09:31:49 AM »
Greg: Thanks for that. With memory refreshed, much of that was familiar once again. I actually avoided a memory-jog for the A318 MPA just for the challenge of bumbling through myself  :D

Me and Carl have been discussing how we could build this below. Chris Gibson kindly supplied me with a nice 3-Veiw of what appears in his bookazine, The Air Staff and the AEW. The engines were to be RB410's and you'll notice it would have had Vulcan style main gear. In 1/72 scale the engine nacelles measure 72" diameter, I have a set of 1/144 scale RR Trents which measure that in 1/72.

Oh yeah. You've got to build that one Robert! The engines are oddly close together. But, then again, almost everything about this proposal was highly distinctive  :smiley:
"The trouble ... is that I am really doing it completely backward. Investigation is the only agenda I have. If people are asking for clarification, they will be out of luck." - William Gibson

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2022, 09:56:19 PM »

Oh yeah. You've got to build that one Robert! The engines are oddly close together. But, then again, almost everything about this proposal was highly distinctive  :smiley:

I'll see how things work out Stephen. But doing some comparisons with the u/c, I found that a Vulcan's wheel bay will actually fit between the front and rear spar of the Nimrod wing, which means it could retract in the same way.

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2022, 08:23:35 AM »
Vickers Type 952 Vanguard in Canadian Service

In January 1965 Trans Canada Air Lines became Air Canada. The airline had already decided that it preferred the jet-powered Douglas DC-8 over its turboprop Vickers Type 952 Vanguards. It was decided that the Government of Canada would purchase all 23 Vanguards then in Air Canada service. This deal was finalized in June 1966 and the first of five Type 952 Vanguards were transferred to Royal Canadian Air Force control.

One of the Vanguards had been modified to 'Cargoliner standards with reinforced roller floors and a large forward fuselage loading door. As a CC-152A Vanguard, that aircraft immediately entered service with the newly reformed No. 432 Squadron at RCAF Trenton. [1] Another, unmodified Vanguard followed to act purely as an aircrew trainer. Four other selected airframes were sent to the Air Canada heavy maintenance centre at Dorval for modification into RCAF CC-152 freighters. [2]

Bottom One of five Canadian military Vanguard transports. This aircraft is a CC-152, as revealed by its fore and aft cargo loading doors. At this stage, the newly-delivered CC-152s wore a hybrid scheme based on their original TCA/Air Canada livery. With 'CANADA' marks on its fuselage after Canadian Forces unification, this scheme remained in place until 1968-69.

In truth, the Canadian Forces were not keen on their new charges. The CC-152 Vanguard was capacious but had few other advantages over the CC-106 Yukon. Most importantly, the CC-152's range was only 3,130 miles - compared with 5,585 miles for the Yukon. Rather critically, this precluded using the Vanguards on the busy CFB-Trenton to CFB Baden–Soellingen in West Germany (a distance of 3865 miles). As result, the CC-152 fleet were employed exclusively within Canada - mainly to limit unneccessary wear and tear on the CC-130 Hercules tactical transport fleet.

'Patrol Vanguard' - The Maritime Patrol Mod

The other eighteen ex-Air Canada Vanguards were earmarked for more extensive modification. The CP-152A maritime patrol variant was given the new type name Victoria. [3] Modified by Canadair at Cartierville, the equipment/sensor fit for the CP-152A was essentially the same as that of the in-service  CP-107 Argus patrol aircraft. [4] The CP-152As were to augment the CP-107 patrol aircraft - the Argus being seen as a bit of a lumbering giant.

Top Canadair/Vickers CP-152A Victoria as initially delivered to the newly-integrated Canadian Armed Forces. This livery stayed unchanged throughout the Victorias' service life.

The Argus had a phenomenal range - of 5,900 miles - but had a very slow transit speed - of only 207 mph. That low speed was actually a benefit for ASW operations but it was not ideal for NorPats (Northern Patrols over Canada's vast Arctic territories). There the CP-152A Victoria would have an edge. The CP-152A Victoria had a maximum speed of 425 mph - 110 mph faster than the Argus. The CP-152A cruised at 412 mph - more than 200 mph faster than an Argus.

While the CP-107 Argus had a cachet amongst ASW crews, the CP-152A Victoria had one key feature which endeared it to aircrews - the Victoria was pressurized. Pressurization gained the Victoria a service ceiling of 30,000 feet. Not only did aircrews flew in shirt-sleeve comfort, on NorPats, the aircraft could often climb above inclement Arctic weather. That ceiling and a higher transit speed made CP-152A Victorias the first choice for any SAR missions.

As previously-used airframes, neither the CC-152 nor CP-152A had especially long military careers. All CC-152/CC-152A Vanguards were retired by 1971 - although several CC-152s served on as commercial cargo carriers for many years. The CP-152A Victoria had a longer run - the last being retired in 1981 with the arrival of the Lockheed CP-140 Aurora.

___________________________

[1] During WW2, No. 432 Squadron RCAF had been part of No. 6 Group, RAF Bomber Command. The squadron was reformed as a CF-100 unit in the 1950s.

[2] The name Vickers Vimy - after Canada's involvement in the WWI Battle of Vimy Ridge - was to be adopted. But, it was decided, insufficient changes had been made from 'Cargoliner' to CC-152 to warrant a type name change.

[3] In a reverse decision to that for the CC-152, it was decided to adopt a new name for the 'Patrol Vanguard' modification. The name Vedette - after a Canadian Vickers patrol aircraft of the 1930s - was proposed. However, a geographical name was preferred. The name Victoria was adopted for the CP-152 - not for the capital city of BC but after Victoria Island in the Arctic.

[4] A notable difference was the mounting of the ASV-21 search radar. Whereas the CP-107 Argus housed that radar's antenna in an underslung radome, the CP-152A's ASV-21 was faired into the nose profile akin to the British Nimrod[/] MR1 installation. Coverage was better for the Argus but the Victoria installation was much less 'draggy'.
"The trouble ... is that I am really doing it completely backward. Investigation is the only agenda I have. If people are asking for clarification, they will be out of luck." - William Gibson

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2022, 08:57:34 PM »
Ah ha! now those I really like Stephen, some years ago I got hold of three Gene Hooker (Classic Air Line Logos) 1/72 scale Vanguards. I was going to do one in a Trans Canada Air Lines scheme, one as a Merchantman in a Hunting Cargo Lines scheme and the last one was going to be an AEW using an E-2 rotordome (Contrails resin conversion).

In the book, Viscount and Vanguard, it says the Merchantman was used to move bombs for the RAF from the UK to Germany, it could carry more bombs than a B-52 (and all 1000lbers), albeit all stacked on pallets   ;D
« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 09:01:51 PM by kitnut617 »

Offline Gingie

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2022, 09:41:40 PM »
Vickers Type 952 Vanguard in Canadian Service


right-click, save-as...

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2022, 02:08:10 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2022, 05:02:20 AM »
Samudree Gashtee - HAL 748-SG Maritime Patrol Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

The sole recent foray into the aerial maritime patrol role by the Indian Air Force was the HAL 748-SG. This prototype sprang from an experimental radar installation by the DRDO on a loaned IAF HAL 748 transport. On examining this installation, some Air Force officials concluded that the IAF could perform the maritime patrol role far more economically the Indian Naval Air Arm's mix of Ilyushin Il-38s and Dornier Do 228s.

The designation HAL 748-SG stood for Samudree Gashtee (Maritime Patrol in Hindi) which was marked on the rear freight door (see inset). The IAF's SG Project was code-named 'Varuna' after the Hindu god of oceans - whose images appeared on the fin. To suit the role, the DRDO test airframe retained its Thomson-CSF surface search radar and gained a ventral pannier acting as a weapons bay. Observation bubble windows were also installed - one on the starboard fuselage side aft of the cockpit, the other in the portside rear cargo door.

While the HAL 748-SG was gauged a successful modification, the Ministry of Defence closed down the SG Project and the prototype was transferred to the Naval Air Arm. The HAL 748-SG was assigned to INAS 318, a mixed type patrol squadron, where it served as an experimental equipment 'mule'. Amongst the sensors trialled have been the IAI Elta EL/M-2022A (V3) and an experimental Airborne Maritime Patrol Radar derivative of the domestic Uttam AESA set.
"The trouble ... is that I am really doing it completely backward. Investigation is the only agenda I have. If people are asking for clarification, they will be out of luck." - William Gibson

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Airliners to Maritime Patrol Aircraft
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2022, 01:27:08 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.