Author Topic: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2  (Read 133116 times)

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
  • "Define 'interesting'?"
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #525 on: January 16, 2024, 10:25:20 PM »
 :D 8) :smiley: ;)
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #526 on: February 13, 2024, 12:07:53 AM »
An Alternative Take on Bristish Cruiser Tanks:

In October 1928, Christie’s M1928 was demonstrated at Fort Myer, Virginia. There the Army's Chief of Staff, General Charles P. Summerall, and other high-ranking officers were impressed, however, the Tank Board was less enthusiastic. They noted that the vehicle's armour was very thin and could not survive penetration by the smallest armour-piercing antitank rifle or artillery piece. The Board also differed with Christie on its guidelines for tank capabilities, which were based on a radically different theory of armoured warfare than that used by Christie. For the Infantry Tank Board, armour and firepower were more important design criteria than mobility, and the M1928 prototype was passed to the Cavalry for further evaluation. The Cavalry's thinking at that time was based on armoured cars, and it wanted to develop the M1928 as an armoured car chassis. Once again, Christie's concept of how his vehicles should be used, together with his difficult nature, resulted in disputes with Army officials. Ultimately, the Secretary of War rejected mass production of the M1928, citing excessive acquisition costs.

Christie then, somewhat foolishly, felt he was justified in selling his inventions to the highest bidder. A long and complex series of exchanges between Christie and foreign governments followed. These were technically illegal since Christie never obtained approval of the US Department of State, Army Ordnance, or the Department of War to transfer his designs to potentially hostile governments.

Initially, in early 1930, Christie promised to sell his M1928 tank design to the Polish government, but the deal fell through and, to avoid potential litigation, he eventually returned the payment made by the Polish government, which never obtained the tank they had ordered.

Although the USSR did not have diplomatic relations with the USA at the time, and was prohibited from obtaining military equipment or weapons, Soviet OGPU agents at the trade front organization AMTORG managed to secure plans and specifications for the Christie M1928 tank chassis in March 1930 using a series of deceptions. On 28 April 1930, Christie's company agreed to sell AMTORG two Christie-designed tanks, documented falsely as agricultural farm tractors, and without prior approval of the U.S. Army or Department of State. They were successfully shipped to the USSR where the Soviets used them to develop the BT series of tanks, forerunners of the massively produced T-34 tank of World War II.

Needless to say, the US Government, and the Department of State in particular, were not amused and Mr Christie was promptly arrested by the FBI and imprisoned on dubious charges of failing to gain export licences and tax fraud rather than aiding and abetting potentially hostile governments.

After favourable reports on observation of Soviet tank activities in 1936, the British War Office tentatively approached the US Government regarding the possible purchase of a license of the Christie design. Not unsurprisingly, the request was politely but firmly turned down.

Meanwhile, across the Pond in Britain, Sidney Horstmann had been developing suspension designs from the 1920s and through his Slow Motion Suspension Company had by 1930 produced a new design using two road wheels on a single bogie, each connected to a bell crank with a horizontal coil spring between the crank arms, and double-acting shock absorbers to control recoil. In 1934, John Carden of Vickers-Armstrongs had a "bright idea" for a new type of tank suspension and partnered with Horstmann's Slow Motion to turn it into a working design. Unfortunately, Carden was killed in an air crash in December 1935, but by this time he had designed a lighter tank platform that had been taken up as the A9, although later known as the Cruiser Mk I. In this version, one large wheel was fitted on one bell crank, and two smaller wheels to a shared arm on the second crank. This went into production in 1937 as an interim type until the Army could develop something better. The same suspension was then used on the larger A10 Cruiser Mk II which came to its ultimate form as the Valentine tank.

At much the same time in the US, Harry Knox an engineer for Rock Island Arsenal, was developing a similar two-wheeled bogey suspension unit but with an innovative double vertical volute spring in place of Horstmann’s coil spring. The suspension was developed in 1933 and was first tested on a T2E1 light tank prototype in 1934. The Rock Island Arsenal would go on to produce the M1 Combat Car, which entered service with the US Army in 1937.

Horstmann and Knox were fully aware of each other’s work, and it didn’t take long for Horstmann to convince the UK Government to approach the US Government for licencing rights to the more efficient volute spring suspension design. Easier to produce and easier to maintain and replace in the field than Christie’s design, the VVSS seemed like an idea solution to the UK’s future cruiser tank designs. Fortunately, the US Government were more favourable in their response to this request and the rest, as they say, is history…

Mk I Cruiser (A9) and Mk II Cruiser (A10) as OTL for completeness...





Mk III Cruiser (A13 Mk I) and Mk IVA Cruiser (A13 Mk II) with M1 Combat Car VVSS...





Mk V Cruiser A13 Mk III) Covenanter and Mk VI Cruiser (A15) Crusader I with M2 Medium VVSS...





Mk VI Cruiser (A15) Crusader III with M3 Lee/Grant VVSS...



Mk VIII Cruiser (A27M) Cromwell with M4 Sherman VVSS...



Cruiser (A34) Comet with M4A3E8 HVSS...

Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #527 on: February 13, 2024, 12:10:44 AM »
An Alternative Take on Bristish Cruiser Tanks:

Four of the above designs will eventually be built (Mk IVA Cruiser, Crusader III, Cromwell and Comet) - with the Crusader III and Cromwell (Christmas presents) already well underway!





Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #528 on: February 13, 2024, 12:12:23 AM »
An Alternative Take on British Cruiser Tanks:

Why is it always the model you want now that suddenly becomes as rare as rocking horse poop! This seemed to be the case for my next donor kit for my Alt British Cruisers series - namely the Bronco Models A13 Mk II Cruiser Tank IVA. Out of stock everywhere or only available from overseas with shipping costs that would require me to remortgage my house! That is until I managed to track down a single kit in Halifax - Halifax, West Yorkshire that is, not Canada - Halifax Modellers World. Let’s hear it for the small retailers everywhere - what a gem!  :smiley:
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #529 on: February 13, 2024, 12:16:17 AM »
An Alternative Take on Bristish Cruiser Tanks Update:

With the good news of more cruiser-kit-goodness on the way (see above), I thought it only polite to post an update on the progress of my alt British cruiser tank project. So here we are with the build phase of both complete and the joys of painting about to start...

Alt Mk VIII Cruiser Tank (A27M) Cromwell:







Alt Mk VI Cruiser Tank (A15) Crusader III:





Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #530 on: February 13, 2024, 12:19:58 AM »
An Alternative Take on Bristish Cruiser Tanks Update:

The production line is in full swing - paint, glue and plastic flying in all directions!!

Alt Mk VI Cruiser Tank (A15) Crusader III:



Alt Mk VIII Cruiser Tank (A27M) Cromwell:



Whoop, whoop! New kit arrived - standard parcel post and it only took 2 and a half days - remarkable!  :smiley:

The kit itself looks like a typical Bronco offering - crisp, detailed and extremely complex. Why cast a component in one piece when you can cast it in twenty or more? That each tiny piece is measured on the subatomic scale is neither here nor there! Should be fun!  :o

Alt Mk IVA Cruiser Tank (A13 Mk II):







« Last Edit: February 13, 2024, 12:23:43 AM by Claymore »
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
  • "Define 'interesting'?"
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #531 on: February 13, 2024, 12:29:21 AM »
I see you haven't fixed one of the major failings of the Crusader III; the placement of the air intakes & filters directly over the rear of the tracks, the dustiest places on a tank. :-\
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #532 on: February 13, 2024, 04:10:33 AM »
I see you haven't fixed one of the major failings of the Crusader III; the placement of the air intakes & filters directly over the rear of the tracks, the dustiest places on a tank. :-\

You’re absolutely right.  These builds are not a Captain Hindsight exercise in redesigning/correcting all the faults with the OTL cruiser tanks rather it is a single POD whiff - specifically, what if Christie suspension was not available and VVSS/HVSS had been adopted instead.  :smiley:
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline apophenia

  • Perversely enjoys removing backgrounds.
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #533 on: February 13, 2024, 06:27:05 AM »
Wow! Fantastic concept! And I love that you've gone all the way back to the A13  :smiley:

Might there also be a Canadian variant? If so, this could be akin to the RW Valentines built by the CPR's Angus shops in Montreal. I'm imagining a late-war alt-Cromwell on Canadian Dry Pin tracks. Possibilities for those CDP tracks and drive sprockets in 1/35 would be:

Panda Plastics [ex-RHPS] Canadian Dry Pin Tracks = 27.95 USD
-- https://shermantracks.com/catalog/canadian_dry_pin.html

PanzerWerkDesign - Sherman CDP tracks = 135.00 PLN
-- https://panzerwerkdesign.com.pl/pl/p/Sherman-CDP-tracks/112

Friul Model - ATL-127 Grizzly (Sherman M4A1), Sexton (Canadian tracks) = € 27,00
-- https://friulmodel.hu/termek/atl-127-grizzly-sherman-m4a1-sexton-canadian-tracks/
-- https://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/friulmodel/atl-127.html

Or maybe search out a swap/trade alternative like the track sprues from Dragon's 1/35 scale '39-'45 Series Kit No. 6793? The CDP track-relevant sprues are:
D 19 M4 - “lifted” bogies, spoke wheels, CDP drivers
V 98x2 M4 – all-in-one VVSS basic suspension components (plus 24 bolt heads)
Z 4 DS Plastic Canadian Dry Pin tracks

Anyway, watching this series with interest  :D
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline raafif

  • Is formally accused of doing nasty things to DC-3s...and officially our first whiffing zombie
  • Whiffing Insane
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #534 on: February 13, 2024, 06:36:24 AM »
The Crusader did away with the front sub-turret & Canada revived it later on.  Why not keep it through out the series ?  (yes, I know, more work)

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #535 on: February 13, 2024, 07:34:46 AM »
Wow! Fantastic concept! And I love that you've gone all the way back to the A13  :smiley:

Might there also be a Canadian variant? If so, this could be akin to the RW Valentines built by the CPR's Angus shops in Montreal. I'm imagining a late-war alt-Cromwell on Canadian Dry Pin tracks. Possibilities for those CDP tracks and drive sprockets in 1/35 would be:

Panda Plastics [ex-RHPS] Canadian Dry Pin Tracks = 27.95 USD
-- https://shermantracks.com/catalog/canadian_dry_pin.html

PanzerWerkDesign - Sherman CDP tracks = 135.00 PLN
-- https://panzerwerkdesign.com.pl/pl/p/Sherman-CDP-tracks/112

Friul Model - ATL-127 Grizzly (Sherman M4A1), Sexton (Canadian tracks) = € 27,00
-- https://friulmodel.hu/termek/atl-127-grizzly-sherman-m4a1-sexton-canadian-tracks/
-- https://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/friulmodel/atl-127.html

Or maybe search out a swap/trade alternative like the track sprues from Dragon's 1/35 scale '39-'45 Series Kit No. 6793? The CDP track-relevant sprues are:
D 19 M4 - “lifted” bogies, spoke wheels, CDP drivers
V 98x2 M4 – all-in-one VVSS basic suspension components (plus 24 bolt heads)
Z 4 DS Plastic Canadian Dry Pin tracks

Anyway, watching this series with interest  :D

Thanks mate and Canadian variants would be fun but with each model requiring two sets of tracks to accommodate the extra length over the A13 Mk II, Crusader and Cromwell over the M2/5 Stuart, M3 Lee/Grant and Sherman respectively, things would rapidly start getting expensive.  As it is, I know the M5 Stuart tracks I am using are crap, but they are available and accurate replacements would cost me much more than the base A13 model did!  :(
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #536 on: February 13, 2024, 07:47:51 AM »
The Crusader did away with the front sub-turret & Canada revived it later on.  Why not keep it through out the series ?  (yes, I know, more work)

Had I decided to model the A15 Crusader I, it would indeed have had the sub-turret but the model which was available and given to me for Chrimbo was the Crusader III (sans sub-turret).  As the project is only looking at the impact of the change from Christie suspension to VVSS/HVSS, the sub-turret was never going to return.  I did, however, ponder giving the Crusader a larger turret to accommodate a 3-man crew for its 6 pdr but decided against it as this was not produced RW.  The limitation of a 2-man turret clearly trumped the time and cost of designing and building a new turret when an entirely new tank (the A27) was already on the drawing board.   :smiley:
« Last Edit: February 13, 2024, 07:50:57 AM by Claymore »
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline raafif

  • Is formally accused of doing nasty things to DC-3s...and officially our first whiffing zombie
  • Whiffing Insane
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #537 on: February 15, 2024, 06:25:51 AM »
I always liked the Valentine's suspension - something similar was used on Trams (called the Maximum Traction bogie).

Now here is a different idea ...

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #538 on: February 15, 2024, 11:42:50 PM »
I always liked the Valentine's suspension - something similar was used on Trams (called the Maximum Traction bogie).

Now here is a different idea ...


Good Lord!  :o  :o
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Buzzbomb

  • Low Concentration Span, oft wanders betwixt projects
  • Accurate Scale representations of fictional stuff
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Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #539 on: February 16, 2024, 05:10:14 AM »
Interesting concepts all through

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #540 on: February 16, 2024, 08:39:46 PM »
An Alternative Take on British Cruiser Tanks:

I must admit that I had forgotten just how bloody fiddly Bronco kits are! Photo Etched parts are not an optional extra but rather primary components and, with all the fun of superglue, are a joy to work with... not! Needless to say, the singularity carpet under my desk has been on full universal destruction mode - I watched a part fall between my feet, saw it hit the carpet, bounce and wink out of existence! Fortunately, the gods were smiling, and it re-appeared an hour later on the opposite side of the room...

Anyhoo, that is the build of the Alt Mk IVA Cruiser Tank (A13 Mk II) complete and it's on to the painting stages along with the others - more undercoat and paints for the Caunter Scheme camo on order. Just the Alt HVSS Comet to go and the set is complete (painting aside). Hinting heavily to Mrs Claymore that it would make a good early Birthday present - you can always dream!





Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
  • "Define 'interesting'?"
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #541 on: February 16, 2024, 09:29:12 PM »
Nice work! :smiley:


Hinting heavily to Mrs Claymore that it would make a good early Birthday present - you can always dream!

I've tried that with Mrs Wombat - "deaf" & "crickets" doesn't come near to describing the response .... Although "deaf crickets" might. :-\
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #542 on: February 17, 2024, 12:42:27 AM »
 C:-)
Nice work! :smiley:

Thanks mate!  :smiley:

 C:-)
I've tried that with Mrs Wombat - "deaf" & "crickets" doesn't come near to describing the response .... Although "deaf crickets" might. :-\

Yup, I guess somethings are universal constants!  ;)
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Story

  • Nicht mein Zirkus, nicht meine Affen...
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #543 on: February 17, 2024, 01:16:01 AM »





That actually looks like a legit prototype.  Very crisp. Award yourself ten (10) retirement points.

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #544 on: February 17, 2024, 01:50:42 AM »
 :smiley:   ;D  ;D

Should look even more convincing once it gets its undercoat.
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Buzzbomb

  • Low Concentration Span, oft wanders betwixt projects
  • Accurate Scale representations of fictional stuff
    • Club and my stuff site
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #545 on: February 17, 2024, 07:11:20 AM »
Like the concept on this.

Built the Bronco A10 Cruiser (and A9 to complete the torture) , which is a very similar kit and totally agree on your take on this kit.

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #546 on: February 17, 2024, 08:01:36 PM »
Like the concept on this.

Built the Bronco A10 Cruiser (and A9 to complete the torture) , which is a very similar kit and totally agree on your take on this kit.

Thanks mate!  :smiley:
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!