Author Topic: Apophenia's Offerings  (Read 923499 times)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1450 on: January 23, 2017, 03:12:48 AM »
The whole lot! Ugly! :-X


Old Wombat: Interesting ... beauty is in the eye. I've always rather liked the Skua's glazing.  :icon_crap:

Some may have noticed that my Blackburn Boreas was somewhat out of scale. That was intentional and based on the proportions of the FROG Blackburn Skua that I built as a kid.

Swanny's Models discussion group member razordws from Vernon, BC, began tackling the Revell (ex-FROG) Skua (#04100) a few years back. His build seems to have stalled but razordws' observations were interesting. The Revell kit has some seriously underscale parts -- primarily the wings being too narrow in chord, horizontal tailplane underscale generally. Perfect, I thought, for a single-seat fighter relative of the Skua and Roc  :))

http://www.swannysmodels.com/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1260854104/8

Below is a planview of an out-of-the-box build of the FROG kit (by TobyC on UAMF) where the narrow chord and small horizontal tail are quite evident. For a comparison with the Valka.cz sideview image that I based the Boreas profile on, see: http://www.valka.cz/html_images/ICE/Skua_2/01.jpg?utm_source=valka_cz&utm_medium=article&utm_campaign=linkthru

I left the kit 'flaws' as is but changed the centre fuselage to create the single-seater -- shortening the nose, and moving the pilot's position aft. As mentioned before, a 'slopier' windscreen accommodates armour glass and the rear turtledeck from a Sea Gladiator was incorporated (with glazed area extended on the Boreas Mk.II). I also shaved off the Skua's distinctive ventral fin (with the shorter nose, I thought that this extra fin area would no longer be needed).
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Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1451 on: January 23, 2017, 11:17:50 AM »

Merlin C powered design to spec A.39/34.
Span: 44'
Length: 30' 4.5"
Height: 10' 6"
(labeled as 'dive bomber' on drawing and as 'turret fighter' in text of Putnam Blackburn volume.)

“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1452 on: January 24, 2017, 10:58:28 AM »
Merlin C powered design to spec A.39/34...

Jon: Great stuff on the Blackburn divebomber/turret fighter! I've done a rough comparison of the A.39/34 submission and the B-25 Roc. Quite a few changes along the way!

Wingspan: Roc 46' ; A.39/34 44'
Length: Roc 35' 7"; A.39/34 30' 4.5"
Height: Roc 12' 1'; A.39/34 10' 6"

The project to A.39/34 appears to have twin wing guns outboard of the main undercarriage. But there's no sign of any engine exhausts or radiators. The latter should be in evidence for the glycol-cooled Merlin C (although the first few P.V.-12s had water/steam cooling systems). Maybe the Blackburn project was originally planned for the evaporative-cooled R-R Goshawk engine?

The Air Min spec is also a little confusing. A.39/34 was for a 2-seat Army co-operation type to replace the Hawker Audax and Hector biplanes (ultimately satisfied by the Westland Lysander). So why did Blackburn submit a turret-fighter and/or divebomber for A.39/34? My guess is that Blackburn was hoping to pick up additional contracts to replace the RAF's Hawker Hind and Demon as well.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1453 on: January 25, 2017, 02:23:13 AM »
Any chance we will see a floatplane version of your new creations?

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1454 on: January 25, 2017, 02:23:48 AM »
I would also love to see a version of the Skua adopted by the British Army.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1455 on: January 27, 2017, 04:12:41 AM »
Any chance we will see a floatplane version of your new creations?

Well, sorta ...

Merlin-Skua Floatplane

When the 1940 Norwegian campaign began, the Air Ministry became very interested in float-equipped combat aircraft. As such, Blackburn undertook to fit its Merlin-Skua with the twin float set from their Shark biplane torpedo bomber.

Taxi trails with the Merlin-Skua on floats immediately showed that the radiator scoop would fill with sea water with the slightest porpoising. This was remedied with the substitution of a more forward-placed radiator (taken directly from a Wellington Mk.II bomber). The floatplane's behaviour on the water was rather erratic while airborne performance had become mediocre.

After the fall of Norway, the Merlin-Skua on floats concept was shelved.

Blackburn Boreas Float-Fighter Concept

AM Spec N.2/42 called for a retractable-hull flying-boat fighter. Blackburn made two submissions to this specification. The more advanced concept resulted in the Napier Sabre-powered Blackburn B-44 based on the planned Firebrand shipboard fighter. The less ambitious proposal was the Blackburn B-36F 'Pacific Fighter' development of the Merlin-powered Boreas series.

The 'Pacific Fighter' was to feature a shallower fuselage and wings adapted for Blackburn B-20 style retractable wingtip stabilizer floats. At a early stage, it was realized that an enlarged tailplane would also be required. Ultimately, the Merlin was to be replaced by the more powerful Rolls-Royce Griffon engine.

The Air Ministry reviewed both Blackburn proposals and elected to pursue the more advanced B-44. In light of the host of problems encountered by the base B-37 Firebrand aircraft, this would seem to have been the wrong decision.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 09:42:53 AM by apophenia »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1456 on: January 27, 2017, 04:21:51 AM »
 :)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Tophe

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1457 on: January 27, 2017, 02:00:02 PM »
a retractable-hull flying-boat fighter.
So uneasy to draw... but you succeeded, congratulations! :-*

Offline upnorth

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1458 on: January 27, 2017, 06:34:55 PM »
I haven't checked in here for a while, you've made some nice additions.

I quite like the Mraz designs you've cooked up in the last couple of pages. In reality, stuff that came from Benes-Mraz, Mraz and later Orlican was all pretty interesting and had some good "What if" potential.
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Offline ericr

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1459 on: January 27, 2017, 09:15:38 PM »
long live seaplanes !
 :)

Offline Tophe

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1460 on: January 28, 2017, 02:47:47 PM »
Thanks again Apophenia, you made me dream of similar Mustangs with retractable float, enriching my collection... ;)

Offline Tophe

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1461 on: January 28, 2017, 03:06:38 PM »
Sorry Apophenia, I mistyped your name. It is corrected at http://www.kristofmeunier.fr/P-51TR9_adp.jpg

Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1462 on: January 30, 2017, 01:24:10 PM »
Whatabout another one with twin retractable floats, Ursinus style ;D
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1463 on: January 31, 2017, 11:03:00 PM »
Any chance we will see a floatplane version of your new creations?
Because a regular Roc isn't, quite, ugly enough, we need to put floats on it...    ;D

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1464 on: February 01, 2017, 03:14:10 AM »
Tophe: I do like your Blackburn B-51D ... IMHO, the Firebrand tail really suits the Mustang!

Jon: Interesting that you mention twin retractable floats. I did briefly consider pinching and backdating the modern Tigerfish approach ;)
http://www.tigerfishaviation.net/page3.html

tankmodeler:  That old "if it looks right, it is right" adage has long-since been turned on its head. It's funny though how, with hindsight, successful concepts (both airframe designs and roles) 'look right' while duds 'look wrong'  :D

Both turret-fighters and float-fighters fit pretty firmly into the dud category as concepts. Yet, to my eyes anyway, the Defiant and Rufe looks 'right' while the Roc and 'Wildcatfish' look 'wrong'. Go figure ...
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1465 on: February 01, 2017, 03:18:49 AM »
For the next whif, I have the Bell Model-3 winning the US Army Air Corps' 1937 specification X-609. So, the rear-cockpit Model-3 becomes the P-39 Airacobra instead of the mid-cockpit Model-4/Model-12.
________________________

The prototype XP-39 (Bell Model-3) flew in April 1939 powered by a 1,150 hp Allison V-1710-7. In May, an order was placed for ten V-1710-17-powered pre-production Y1P-39s. The latter (Bell Model-3A) were changed in detail compared with the XP-39. Most obvious was the installation of armament -- twin, synchronized .50 calibre Browning machine guns and a 25mm cannon firing through a 'hollow' propeller shaft. In addition, the main undercarriage covers were simplified as was the 'plumbing' for the General Electric turbosupercharger.

The belly-mounted GE B-10 'blower' installation proved quite 'draggy' and general aerodynamic improvement were undertaken. This aerodynamic clean-up saw a pointed propeller spinner retro-fitted to the fifth Y1P-39. Plans were also in hand to relocate the B-10 'blower' to a new, portside fuselage position. That was never done as the Air Corps had decided to cancel the turbo P-39A (Bell Model-3B) in favour of the simpler, supercharged P-39B.

(Top) Y1P-39 Airacobra of the Headquarters Staff flight, 31st Pursuit Group, March-April 1940. This pre-production aircraft displays the 31st PG badge ("Return with Honor") in front of the cockpit and features HQ flight stripes on the forward nose. Note that this Y1P-39 has yet to be fitted with its reflector gun sight.

The P-39B (Bell Model-3C) could be quickly distinguished from the Y1P-39 by its larger tail fin and rudder. Less obvious was the longer main undercarriage legs with smaller, lighter main wheels. The production P-39B Airacobras began arriving to equip the 31st Pursuit Group at Selfridge Field in November 1940. The P-39B did everything expected of it but, lacking armour and self-sealing fuel tanks, the Airacobra was clearly unsuited to modern air combat. Orders were cut from 80 to only 62 P-39Bs.

Further design work on the P-39C (Bell Model-3D) -- which was to add a pair of .30-calibre Brownings to the nose armament -- was abandoned. Instead, the Air Corps decided to adopt Bell's more conventional Model-15 'Export Fighter' as its next service type. But that is another story ...

(Bottom) P-39C Airacobra of the 40th Pursuit Squadron (Interceptor), 31st PG, in 'White Army' markings for the Louisiana Maneuvers, Aug-Sept 1941). White crosses are temporary, water-based paint. The 40th PS badge is painted forward of the cockpit. Note that rudder stripes have now been removed from USAAC combat aircraft.
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Offline AXOR

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1466 on: February 01, 2017, 06:39:34 AM »
Waaaaw...P-39 C is the most interesting what if seen lately...absolutely awesome !
This model should be plastified !!!
Alex

Offline Tophe

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1467 on: February 01, 2017, 07:37:41 PM »
I agree: very wonderful reinvented P-39... Thanks for the enjoyment... :-*

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1468 on: February 01, 2017, 08:38:45 PM »
Sure is different. :)

Unfortunately the wing/cockpit location blocks forward low vision. ???

Fine for a racer, not so flash for a fighter. :icon_crap:
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1469 on: February 01, 2017, 10:01:58 PM »
Reminds me a great deal of the XP-77


Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1470 on: February 02, 2017, 12:32:14 AM »
Looks like that's where the canopy came from. :)
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Tophe

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1471 on: February 02, 2017, 12:37:11 AM »
Your P-39C is soooo beautiful, I MUST draw Mustang derivatives of it... thanks again!
EDIT: I join it:
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 01:23:11 AM by Tophe »

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1472 on: February 02, 2017, 02:33:32 AM »
Reminds me a great deal of the XP-77



My thoughts too.

It is great work. :)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1473 on: February 03, 2017, 03:59:34 AM »
Posted before but here they are again, drawings from Putnam on Bell by Pelletier,
for those who haven't seen them previously.



“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1474 on: February 04, 2017, 10:59:31 AM »
Looks like that's where the canopy came from. :)

Old Wombat: That was my first thought, too. The Model-3 canopy concept was recycled for the Model-32/XP-77 lightweight fighter but, I was surprised to discover, the two canopies were quite different in shape  :P

Jon: Thanks for that. Interesting that your Putnam 3-view shows a spinner and an undercarriage very much like the RW P-39. The drawing I was working from must have been of an earlier incarnation -- all of the wheels were much bigger.

________________________

Bell had planned an export version of its Model-3 Airacobra. The hybrid Bell Export Model-3 featured the lighter-weight undercarriage of the unbuilt Bell Model-3D but lacked that design's turbosupercharger. Armed with a 37mm Colt-Oldsmobile cannon, thi concept was offered to the French purchasing commission as a chasse d'assaut. Designated Model-3F, Bell proposed the name Bélier (Battering Ram). Armée de l'Air inspectors were nonplussed by the Model-3F which was privately dubbed 'Baleneau' (the 'Whale Calf').

No-one was surprised when the French declined the Model-3F but the purchasing commission saw greater potential in another as-yet unflown Bell design - the more conventional Model 14. Armée de l'Air personnel viewed the near complete Model 14 as its Allison V-1710C engine was first being installed. The Model 14 was going to be a well-protected aircraft (with armour glass in front and behind the pilot) but also an expensive one. To reduce cost and increase commonality, it was decided to substitute a French powerplant.

The first prototype Model-14 (NX-3970) flew from Buffalo Airfield at Cheektowaga in the beginning of September 1938. Overall, the aircraft was a success but there were 'bugs' to work out. The Model-14 had been designed for the Allison V-1710F but this engine, with its higher thrust-line was not available in time. Instead, the prototype was fitted with a V-1710C making taxiing tricky for test pilots. The 'cut back' carburetor intake also caused engine surging although this was easily remedied by extending the intake forward.

Unexpectly high drag caused by the twin radiator ducts was harder to fix. In the end, a completely new belly duct had to be designed. A bigger problem was Bob Woods' beautifully-shaped canopy. Designed to slide forward during take-off and landing, this canopy had a tendency jam or even to jump its track. More importantly, the forward-siding canopy was completely unacceptable to the potential customer - the Armée de l'Air.

(Top) The first prototype Bell Model-14 'Export Fighter' with its long-nose Allison V-1710C engine.

Work on the second Model 14 was delayed to incorporate improvements to the first prototype. As a result, the second prototype was not completed until April 1939. The French had organized for a Czech-built Avia HS-12Ydrs engine to be delivered to Bell but this engine had been seized by occupying German authorities. So, the second prototype had to be shipped to Marseille without an engine. The Model-14F was sent on to the Base de Stockage at Istres where the fighter was fitted with a French-built Hispano-Suiza 12Y-21.

Acceptance trials were flown by CEMA (Centre d'Expérimentation du Matériel Aérien) at Villacoublay in November 1939. By that time, a modest test armament of twin synchronized 7.5mm FN-Browning mle 1938 machine guns was installed (for no 20mm moteur-canon could be spared from operational aircraft). Overall, the Model-14F performed well but the CEMA report recommended that machine gun armament be moved to the wings to provide uncluttered access to the planned HS.404 moteur-canon and its feed drum.

(Bottom) The second prototype Bell Model-14F in French colours during Villacoublay acceptance trials with the Armée de l'Air's CEMA (Centre d'Expérimentation du Matériel Aérien).

With recommended changes incorporated, the Model-14F-1 entered production at Bell's Elmwood plant. To be continued ...

________________________
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz