Beyond The Sprues

Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Aero-space => Topic started by: Daryl J. on November 26, 2012, 06:57:32 AM

Title: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Daryl J. on November 26, 2012, 06:57:32 AM
Royal Norwegian stand off nuke ALBM (W-28, Green Bamboo, etc.)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 26, 2012, 07:03:21 AM
Damn Vikings... ;D
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Daryl J. on November 26, 2012, 07:24:13 AM
Maybe the semi recessed missile will have to be named the Opprort Troll then!    (Uproaring Troll)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: elmayerle on November 26, 2012, 07:35:57 AM
Over the years I've collected art of various proposed Arrow versions.  I'm not sure they are small enough to post here, but I've got the Mk.3, the PS-2, one Mk.4 proposal with a cleaned-up version of the PS-2's ramjets and tankage, and one of a PS-2 firing a PS-13 ABM.  Be glad to send them to someone to adjust to fit.  That Mk.4 could easily have just tanks instead of the full package under the wings.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: The Big Gimper on November 26, 2012, 08:10:10 AM
Over the years I've collected art of various proposed Arrow versions.  I'm not sure they are small enough to post here, but I've got the Mk.3, the PS-2, one Mk.4 proposal with a cleaned-up version of the PS-2's ramjets and tankage, and one of a PS-2 firing a PS-13 ABM.  Be glad to send them to someone to adjust to fit.  That Mk.4 could easily have just tanks instead of the full package under the wings.

How about Photobucket or your favourite photo sharing site. I'd love to see them Evan.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: elmayerle on November 26, 2012, 08:25:07 AM
Really don't have a photobucket account or a sharing site at the moment.  Something more to attend to.

Let em see if I can't get them off to you in the next few days.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: kitnut617 on November 26, 2012, 08:42:09 AM
I bought these ones through CanMilAir's website
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Daryl J. on December 02, 2013, 07:53:41 AM
RAF anti-satellite
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: The Big Gimper on December 02, 2013, 08:55:21 AM
Karl Mesojednik has on his Avro Arrow Dedication Page about 20 nice profiles from the MK.I to the MK.IX.

Page is here (http://kaap.purpleglen.com).
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: PR19_Kit on December 02, 2013, 01:59:33 PM
Brilliant stuff there, thanks for the link.  :)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Diavel on December 03, 2013, 04:40:01 AM
How about a 3 engined slightly modified version built to intercept UFO's??
(http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo154/chrisonord/th_chimera001.jpg) (http://s371.photobucket.com/user/chrisonord/media/chimera001.jpg.html)
(http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo154/chrisonord/th_chimera003.jpg) (http://s371.photobucket.com/user/chrisonord/media/chimera003.jpg.html)
(http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo154/chrisonord/th_chimera005.jpg) (http://s371.photobucket.com/user/chrisonord/media/chimera005.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Logan Hartke on December 19, 2013, 10:21:18 AM
It may be silly, but it sure is pretty.

YouTube: 5th Gen SUPERSONIC CF105 MK3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UmDYc8s3YY#ws)

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Rickshaw on December 19, 2013, 04:56:11 PM
Why put the Pythons in the weapons bay?  Their seekers can't "see" behind those metal doors...
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: ChernayaAkula on December 19, 2013, 10:23:32 PM
Why put the Pythons in the weapons bay?  Their seekers can't "see" behind those metal doors...

Strange choice given that there are wing pylons, but not really a problem for the Pythons with their lock-on after launch capability. And maybe they've somehow tied in the Python's seeker with the IRST? And there's still the F-22's current low-tech solution - open the bay doors, extend trapeze and missile into the slipstream, let the seeker do its thing and then fire - or not.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Weaver on December 20, 2013, 02:04:46 AM
I've always like the idea of a late 1960s Arrow modified by Vietnam experience:

Clear canopy
Gun and fuel in the former weapons bay
4 x Sparrow on the fuselage corners, F-15 style
Underwing drop tanks with 4 x Sidewinder on the sides of the pylons, F-15 style again
Twin vertical fins mounted at mid-span

 
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: kitnut617 on December 20, 2013, 04:01:31 AM
On my Super Arrow, I'm going with four F-15 wing tanks each with a pair of AIM-54 style missiles on the inboard pylon and Sparrows on the outer ones, then  another four AIM-54's on the fuselage corners just like your idea Harold.  I'm also moving the u/c into the fuselage.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Logan Hartke on December 20, 2013, 04:16:40 AM
Pretty...

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: mrvr6 on December 20, 2013, 04:48:30 AM
On my Super Arrow, I'm going with four F-15 wing tanks each with a pair of AIM-54 style missiles on the inboard pylon and Sparrows on the outer ones, then  another four AIM-54's on the fuselage corners just like your idea Harold.  I'm also moving the u/c into the fuselage.

you got a wip thread for that beast?
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: jcf on December 20, 2013, 04:55:34 AM
I've always like the idea of a late 1960s Arrow modified by Vietnam experience:

Clear canopy
Gun and fuel in the former weapons bay
4 x Sparrow on the fuselage corners, F-15 style
Underwing drop tanks with 4 x Sidewinder on the sides of the pylons, F-15 style again
Twin vertical fins mounted at mid-span

First you'd have to give it a "weapons bay".  :-X

The Arrow was built as a weapons system, and part of that system was a removable weapons 'pack',
which also contained the electronics specific to the particular missile. The pack ran the full width of
the fuselage and partly up the side of the aircraft. When it was removed you just had a gaping hole
in the airframe. The pack was also quite shallow due to the engine intake ducts running directly
above. Turning the weapons pack area into a multi-purpose bay would require a great deal of
structural and systems rearrangement. All of this has been public knowledge for decades so why
these idiots at Boudreau can't even get the details right just underscores that their 'project' is a
con job on the uninformed. Their research seems to be limited to reading Russell Whitcomb's
flag-waving, and inaccurate, books.
As a Canadian I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me,
myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: kitnut617 on December 20, 2013, 05:12:00 AM
you got a wip thread for that beast?

I've got one on another forum I think, I thought I had one here though but it doesn't look like it as I can't find it  -----  In the Arrowhead book it broaches on later versions of the Arrow, Mach 3 and others.  It suggests a bigger version of the Iroquois but there's not a lot of room in the first two versions to increase the engine diameter so I looked for something I could use to accomodate some bigger engines.  I had in the stash one of those really terrible Zhendefu Mig-31's which also has a boxy fuselage so after some part match-ups, used the fuselage.  I've increased the fin area too, I calculated the area of the two Mig-31 fins and then increased that Arrow fin to be the same.  I didn't have to add much.  I decided to give the outer wing leading edges the Avro treatment, these are very thin and curve downwards (which doesn't really show up in the photos).  The tank in the bottom pic will be the master for some castings, needs a bit of cleaning up but I used a Mig-31 pylon for a base.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: kitnut617 on December 20, 2013, 05:22:41 AM
I decided that the original main u/c gear wasn't really up to un-prepared airstrips (I'm thinking forward gravel strips in the Arctic) which is why I moved the gear to the fuselage, just not any room in the wings for more robust u/c gear or wheels.  I've worked out how they would work and how they would retract. Wheels are F-105 ones
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on December 20, 2013, 05:45:52 AM
I decided that the original main u/c gear wasn't really up to un-prepared airstrips (I'm thinking forward gravel strips in the Arctic) which is why I moved the gear to the fuselage, just not any room in the wings for more robust u/c gear or wheels.  I've worked out how they would work and how they would retract. Wheels are F-105 ones
No way to adapt a dual wheel arrangement such as that used on the Jaguar?  It always looked like a much sturdier design and hopefully offered good performance on unprepared surfaces. 
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: kitnut617 on December 20, 2013, 05:48:30 AM
I thought about it Jeff, but wanted to keep the tandem style arrangement. Besides, too late now  - I've got it all figure out   ;)

It doesn't look too bad with the new u/c and I thought I had a photo of it temporarily on it's u/c but it's gone missing.  Unless I put it in another directory   :-X
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Rickshaw on December 20, 2013, 08:31:26 AM
I've always like the idea of a late 1960s Arrow modified by Vietnam experience:

Clear canopy
Gun and fuel in the former weapons bay
4 x Sparrow on the fuselage corners, F-15 style
Underwing drop tanks with 4 x Sidewinder on the sides of the pylons, F-15 style again
Twin vertical fins mounted at mid-span

A shrunk F-108?
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Weaver on December 20, 2013, 08:12:57 PM
I've always like the idea of a late 1960s Arrow modified by Vietnam experience:

Clear canopy
Gun and fuel in the former weapons bay
4 x Sparrow on the fuselage corners, F-15 style
Underwing drop tanks with 4 x Sidewinder on the sides of the pylons, F-15 style again
Twin vertical fins mounted at mid-span

First you'd have to give it a "weapons bay".  :-X

The Arrow was built as a weapons system, and part of that system was a removable weapons 'pack',
which also contained the electronics specific to the particular missile. The pack ran the full width of
the fuselage and partly up the side of the aircraft. When it was removed you just had a gaping hole
in the airframe. The pack was also quite shallow due to the engine intake ducts running directly
above. Turning the weapons pack area into a multi-purpose bay would require a great deal of
structural and systems rearrangement. All of this has been public knowledge for decades so why
these idiots at Boudreau can't even get the details right just underscores that their 'project' is a
con job on the uninformed. Their research seems to be limited to reading Russell Whitcomb's
flag-waving, and inaccurate, books.
As a Canadian I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me,
myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.


Pardon my hasty and inaccurate use of language.....

I know how the Arrow's "weapon pack" worked and had this in mind with my scheme. I'm not suggesting for a moment it should be "multi-purpose", rather I'd have it replaced by a permanently fitted fuel tank. If it was possible to use 1/4 to 1/3 of the volume for a gun or guns and ammo, then that would be good, but if it was too complicated I'd say go with all-fuel and fit the gun in an external conformal pod.

I think I'm right in saying that several "official" advanced Arrow schemes had a hardpoint under the rear fuselage behind the weapon pack, so that might be a possible location for a gun pod. Some might look askance at it being so far back, but the MiG-31 carries it's gun a long way back on the fuselage too, without apparent difficulty.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: jcf on December 21, 2013, 12:06:03 AM
Sorry Harold, my frustration isn't with you, it's with the idiots pushing the Arrow
as being a viable aircraft for today.

There was an external fuel tank mount for a single 500 gal tank aft of the weapons pack on the Mark. 2.

As to carrying a gun on the Arrow? Um, why bother?

Anyhow the MiG 31 gun is just dead weight as the Russians stopped using the GSh-6-23 gun
and carrying live ammo in the '80s because the gun turned out to have some dangerous flaws,
including the loss of two Su-24 in 1983.
The bigger 30mm gun was even more problematic:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/GSh-6-30.htm (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/GSh-6-30.htm)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: kitnut617 on December 21, 2013, 12:08:32 AM
I think I'm right in saying that several "official" advanced Arrow schemes had a hardpoint under the rear fuselage behind the weapon pack, so that might be a possible location for a gun pod. Some might look askance at it being so far back, but the MiG-31 carries it's gun a long way back on the fuselage too, without apparent difficulty.

In Reply #7, I posted some 'Whiff' schemes, the prints show where a centerline tank or other weapons were to be carried.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: kitnut617 on December 21, 2013, 12:16:00 AM
My first Arrow built I enhanced the early Hobbycraft kit a bit.  Tried to correct the main gear a bit to how it really was and I made the weapons bay somewhat like the details found in the Arrowhead book.
Top pic shows the 'gaping hole' Jon referes to, next two are of the weapons pack.

BTW, I had about 40 vacuform kits of the CF-105.  I've manage to sell quite a few of them but now I have run out of one of the sheets that I need to move the rest.  I will have to get some formed up but I want to make some masters of the moulds before I do that.  Something that will last a while.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: jcf on December 21, 2013, 01:02:35 AM
Cool Robert.  :)

I like that you have the correct number of Sparrow II.  ;)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: kitnut617 on December 21, 2013, 01:09:34 AM
There just wasn't any room for any more Jon, and even then the fin tips had to poke through the doors (just like the real thing)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Weaver on December 21, 2013, 01:24:43 AM
Sorry Harold, my frustration isn't with you, it's with the idiots pushing the Arrow
as being a viable aircraft for today.

No problem.

I thought the modern-day "Super-Arrow" was a bit OTT as well. I think it's reasonable to imagine it having a similar career to the Phantom, i.e. major new versions towards the end on the 1960s, upgrades to existing aircraft in the 1980/90s then a diminishing "legacy asset" beyond theend of the century with upgrades aimed at life extension rather than capbility.


Quote
As to carrying a gun on the Arrow? Um, why bother?

Well again, I was projecting a similar experience to the Phantom, i.e. it goes to 'nam (not necessarily in Canadian hands), gets presented with a completely different scenario to that for which it was designed, and has to be modified accordingly.

Quote
Anyhow the MiG 31 gun is just dead weight as the Russians stopped using the GSh-6-23 gun
and carrying live ammo in the '80s because the gun turned out to have some dangerous flaws,
including the loss of two Su-24 in 1983.

Didn't know about the GSh-6-23 problems - cheers.  :)

Limited relevence to the Arrow though, since that's one gun it definitely wouldn't be fitted with. I only mentioned the MiG-31 because the  position of it's gun (i.e. a long way back on the fuselage) was relevent to the issue of mounting a gun a long way back on the Arrow. The latter would probably have a Vulcan.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 21, 2013, 02:45:48 AM
Nice work there.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 21, 2013, 03:22:00 AM
...these idiots at Boudreau ... underscores that their 'project' is a con job on the uninformed…

...I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me, myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.

Agree fully!
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: mrvr6 on December 21, 2013, 07:44:08 AM
...these idiots at Boudreau ... underscores that their 'project' is a con job on the uninformed…

...I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me, myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.

Agree fully!

agreed BUT theres nothing wrong with a bit of fantasy after all thats what ahat if is all about :)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Rickshaw on December 21, 2013, 11:10:05 AM
...these idiots at Boudreau ... underscores that their 'project' is a con job on the uninformed…

...I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me, myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.

Agree fully!

Ditto.  As usual, the myth making tries to make up with fantasy what reality denies.  The CF-105 was a remarkable aircraft but like the TSR2 it is one of the great "should have beens".  It was not though, ever intended to be anything other than an interceptor.  Unfortunately too few "fan boyz" (tm, JF) seem to understand that try and turn it into something else.   In reality, when the Soviet manned bomber threat disappeared, it's usefulness was basically over.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Volkodav on December 21, 2013, 05:06:23 PM
Dare I mention the super duper, jedi master, F-111 modernizations pushed by some in Australia?

The F-111 was a great aircraft that was, that in hind sight probably was not ideal for a small to medium air force like the RAAF and had an opportunity cost that hurt across defence for decades.  The clowns wanting life extend it into the 2030s were beyond delusional.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Silver Fox on December 22, 2013, 03:23:27 AM
The Arrow hype is largely fed by those that don't have a single functional clue about air forces or the aircraft they use.

Roadmap for Arrow, post "real-world" cancellation.

1. RL 206 flies with PS-13 engines. The MKII becomes the "standard" Arrow design.

2. The MKIII Arrow is a MKII with photo-recon gear instead of the weapons system.

3. Similar consideration is given to electronic reconnaissance, producing the MKIV.

4. AVRO engineers seek to solve the issue of Surface to Air Missile vulnerability that the MKIII/IV Arrow has in over-flying hostile territory. They invent the modern tactical chaff/flare dispenser in response.

5. Investigations into the strike capability of the CF-105 produce the MKV. The MKV is essentially a MKII with the weapons pack deleted and replaced with reinforced structure. Air-to-air radar is replaced with ground search/targeting. Initially the payload is only 4,500 lbs... but rapidly increases to 12,000 lbs.

6. Upgrades to the MKIII produce a viable electronic warfare capability. The MKIIIb can jam hostile radars, the MKIIIc can carry and launch anti-radiation missiles.

AVRO announces that: "An Arrow can now photograph targets while escorted by other Arrows. More Arrows bomb the target while other Arrows jam radars and still more Arrows escort. Finally, an Arrow photographs the bomb damage while escorted by yet more Arrows."

M-D is apparently livid... they were just about ready to make the same claim for their F-4 Phantom series.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Daryl J. on December 22, 2013, 04:47:58 AM
Option 2.   I like option 2
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 22, 2013, 05:01:15 AM
Dare I mention the super duper, jedi master, F-111 modernizations pushed by some in Australia?



What?!  You no think this realistic?! ;)

(http://www.ausairpower.net/XIMG/f-111c-3v-amraam-1.png)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 22, 2013, 05:02:54 AM

AVRO announces that: "An Arrow can now photograph targets while escorted by other Arrows. More Arrows bomb the target while other Arrows jam radars and still more Arrows escort. Finally, an Arrow photographs the bomb damage while escorted by yet more Arrows."


What?!  No Refuelling by other Arrows?  Damn waste of a platform if you ask me... ;)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: jcf on December 22, 2013, 09:08:36 AM

M-D is apparently livid... they were just about ready to make the same claim for their F-4 Phantom series.

Dunno why they'd be 'livid' and it would depend on timeline, as M-D didn't come into being
until 1967, and I doubt if the Douglas side of the house would have cared anyhow.   ;)

No love lost between Long Beach and St. Louis.  ;D
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: The Big Gimper on September 21, 2015, 04:52:08 AM
Folks:

I am very privileged to come across some very rare Avro Arrow Memorabilia.

The two pictures below are scans are what I consider authentic photos borrowed from an ex-Avro employee who was employed as an Executive Assistant.

She worked first as an EA first for a RCAF Air Commodore (I am guessing the rank. Waiting for details. Her memory is not that good anymore) and later in the Avro Sales organization. It was in the sales department where she came to acquire these photos. The story as told to me by her son is that when visitors would come to the factory, they would layout a large number of photos as gifts and the pilots would go and pre-sign all of them. There sometimes would be leftovers which would be destroyed. She had the good frame of mind to take these as well as other now precious memorabilia.

The signatures are from Janusz Żurakowski and Wladyslaw Potocki ("Spud").  Note he signed it as "Spud".

(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n547/CF-101B/Aircraft-Special/RL-201-1-Copyright.jpg)

(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n547/CF-101B/Aircraft-Special/RL-201-2-Copyright.jpg)

Enjoy.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Kerick on September 21, 2015, 06:58:49 AM
Awesome pics! Keep those in a special place high and dry.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Old Wombat on September 21, 2015, 10:33:49 AM
SO, good Anglo-French names, then. ;D
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: M.A.D on September 21, 2015, 02:51:57 PM
Dare I mention the super duper, jedi master, F-111 modernizations pushed by some in Australia?



What?!  You no think this realistic?! ;)

([url]http://www.ausairpower.net/XIMG/f-111c-3v-amraam-1.png[/url])


You know, for all the fanciful notion of this twelve AMRAAM totting F-111 'Bomber Interceptor' concept', I just finished watching a conceptual Boeing B-1R promotional video, which literally supports this notion!

M.A.D
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 22, 2015, 03:51:03 AM
The fanciful things with CK's idea was that there was (and indeed still is) no need for it - there were/are no hordes of enemy coming over the horizon.  Moreover, CK, used to try to say that all these mods (new engines, new radar, new avionics, reworked airframe, certification of everything could all be done for peanuts!  What a joke!
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Alvis 3.1 on September 22, 2015, 01:17:01 PM
It basically feeds on the belief the Arrow was and still is the *best* fighter ever built. It could fly faster than an SR-71, carry more weapons than a Phantom, and fly rings around an F-15!
It was so good it HAD to be cancelled or nobody else would have been able to sell a plane ever afterwards!

Alvis 3.1
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Old Wombat on September 22, 2015, 04:13:13 PM
Sorry, is this the "Sparring Room" or "Ideas & Inspirations > Aerospace"? ???
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: jcf on September 23, 2015, 12:56:47 AM
Sorry, is this the "Sparring Room" or "Ideas & Inspirations > Aerospace"? ???

The latter, however there's nothing that sez every notion has to be greeted with oohs and aahs of adulation.

If something is idiotic, it's idiotic and many folk of the Canadian persusasion, myself amongst them, get tired
of OOT Arrow fantasies and continuations of baseless myth.

 :icon_fsm:
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: elmayerle on September 23, 2015, 01:51:35 AM
The Arrow had the potential to be an excellent interceptor (and Avro-Canada had some concepts for ballistic missile interception, too) and, quite possibly, a good strike aircraft (there was such a derivative proposed to Britain's GOR.339).  I could see it, too, as an excellent recce platform (intend to model one that way using a RF-111 recce pallet).  That would be quite enough if it had been developed.  From all I've been able to gather, the Iroquois was in advance of both the J75 and the Olympus 320R (for the TSR.2) and it's established fact that an Iroquois engine did wind up in the UK.  Was it all-doing, no; was it an excellent aircraft that deserved better, yes IMHO.  Certainly it gives plenty of room for whif fodder.  I can't, though, see it as a tactical fighter along the lines of the F-15 or F-14.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Dr. YoKai on September 24, 2015, 08:13:54 AM
I've always thought it was a pretty aircraft, but gone is gone. Thank goodness for injection molding technology.

To come back to whiffery, is the structure of the Arrow such that the weapons pack/bay could be configured to launch rockets
after the fashion of VLS cells? Something along the lines of a large diameter stumpy missile for, say, shooting at the stray flying Saucer or Soviet satellite?
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: jcf on September 24, 2015, 09:09:38 AM
I've always thought it was a pretty aircraft, but gone is gone. Thank goodness for injection molding technology.

To come back to whiffery, is the structure of the Arrow such that the weapons pack/bay could be configured to launch rockets
after the fashion of VLS cells? Something along the lines of a large diameter stumpy missile for, say, shooting at the stray flying Saucer or Soviet satellite?

Nope, the pack was really pretty shallow.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 25, 2015, 03:49:04 AM
Some profiles by one of our members to wet your appetites:

(http://www.rp-one.net/profiles/graphics/ac_cf105_409sqdn_rcaf_1.png)

(http://www.rp-one.net/profiles/graphics/ac_cf105_414sqdn_rcaf_1.png)

(http://www.rp-one.net/profiles/graphics/ac_cf105_iiaf_1.png)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 25, 2015, 04:34:05 AM
I've always thought it was a pretty aircraft, but gone is gone. Thank goodness for injection molding technology.

To come back to whiffery, is the structure of the Arrow such that the weapons pack/bay could be configured to launch rockets
after the fashion of VLS cells? Something along the lines of a large diameter stumpy missile for, say, shooting at the stray flying Saucer or Soviet satellite?


Nope, the pack was really pretty shallow.


One can see it here:

(http://www.avroarrow.org/images/JimF/weappacS.jpg)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 25, 2015, 04:51:21 AM
One especially for Bill...though he may not see the aircraft in the picture:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/0ca1b0b57cbef777a20a3c896b855ff7_zpsorslye75.jpg)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Daryl J. on September 25, 2015, 06:50:02 AM
Those were the days....................
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: dy031101 on September 26, 2015, 03:11:48 AM
...... (and Avro-Canada had some concepts for ballistic missile interception, too)......

Outside of Mutually-Assureded Destruction already being a deterent, what was the challenge that prevented the concept of ABM-armed manned interceptors from happening, particularly for countries that did not possess any credible strategic nuclear capability of their own??
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Rickshaw on September 27, 2015, 08:50:16 AM
...... (and Avro-Canada had some concepts for ballistic missile interception, too)......

Outside of Mutually-Assureded Destruction already being a deterent, what was the challenge that prevented the concept of ABM-armed manned interceptors from happening, particularly for countries that did not possess any credible strategic nuclear capability of their own??

Apart from the technical difficulties of designing a long-range, high accelleration, missile which was guided by a long-range radar system?  Cost.   The US spent approximately several tens of billion dollars on it's Safeguard System to turn it off after a couple of months.  It took over 20 years to develop as well.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: The Big Gimper on June 07, 2016, 12:50:52 AM
Avro Canada CF-XX Super Arrow concept

(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13308174_10156962463755557_7061294482894301874_o.jpg)

(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13329575_10156962463750557_3439790667690188067_o.jpg)

Source: Facebook The Greatest Planes That Never Were
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Gingie on June 08, 2016, 11:41:53 AM
^ Obviously based off the one Clint Eastwood stole from Russia!
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: mrvr6 on June 08, 2016, 03:36:09 PM
now thats LOVELY!
i saw a comment on youtube where somebody claimed the arrow would still be the best fighter around today,
i asked him what it would be the best at? and gave him a list of speed alt range maneuverability etc etc, so far he hasnt replied lol
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: KiwiZac on June 14, 2016, 10:06:58 AM
([url]http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/0ca1b0b57cbef777a20a3c896b855ff7_zpsorslye75.jpg[/url])

Those were the days....................

That photo is likely from the rollout of the Canadian Air and Space Museum's replica in October 2008...note the modern car visible under its belly!  ;)

I have an old-tool Hobbycraft 1/72 Arrow in the stash but I've no idea what to do with it, but this thread is a great font of knowledge!
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: The Big Gimper on August 15, 2016, 05:27:41 AM
(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13988178_10154180420656117_4153180907010837628_o.jpg)

(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13914083_10154180420651117_7360778706198146299_o.jpg)

(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13913863_10154180421066117_1708165385654597956_o.jpg)

(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13923551_10154180421886117_3437698591514672765_o.jpg)

Source: Artist Peter Robichaud
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Artoor_K on May 07, 2017, 06:15:58 AM
I've bought a model of Arrow in 1/48. Also, I've got 1/48 Airfix TSR2. I'm going to make a dio with them. Camo for TSR2 is chosen-green/gray top, light grey bottom. The problem is- how to paint Arrow? Production plane wouldn't be white with orange accents? Or would it?
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: The Big Gimper on May 07, 2017, 06:41:42 AM
That is a very good question Artur.

I don't think it would be white. It also depends oh which "Mark" you will build it as.  Which Air Force?

If it is an early RCAF model (early 1960s to 1970s) it could be bare metal or Silver Lacquer). It could be also be Air Defence Grey like the 2nd batch of CF-101s in the late 1970's and 80s. Of if it is later, use the CF-18 colours.

I have 10's of profiles and they come in many different schemes. If you want copies of all my profiles, send me a PM with your personal email address and I'll give them to you.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: kitnut617 on May 07, 2017, 07:28:04 AM
I've bought a model of Arrow in 1/48. Also, I've got 1/48 Airfix TSR2. I'm going to make a dio with them. Camo for TSR2 is chosen-green/gray top, light grey bottom. The problem is- how to paint Arrow? Production plane wouldn't be white with orange accents? Or would it?

Like this maybe
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: The Big Gimper on May 07, 2017, 10:01:39 AM
Very nice Robert. Whose markings will it receive?
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Artoor_K on May 07, 2017, 07:41:11 PM
That is a very good question Artur.

I don't think it would be white. It also depends oh which "Mark" you will build it as.  Which Air Force?

If it is an early RCAF model (early 1960s to 1970s) it could be bare metal or Silver Lacquer). It could be also be Air Defence Grey like the 2nd batch of CF-101s in the late 1970's and 80s. Of if it is later, use the CF-18 colours.

I have 10's of profiles and they come in many different schemes. If you want copies of all my profiles, send me a PM with your personal email address and I'll give them to you.

I'll stick with RCAF😊 Which mark? Well, I plan to show it with TSR like on static display on airshow. It could be 1980 more or less. Thanks a lot for your help. Pm will be sent in a few minutes😃
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: kitnut617 on May 07, 2017, 08:42:40 PM
Very nice Robert. Whose markings will it receive?

I used some different exhaust nozzles to make it into a Mk.2, so it'll be something in that serial range with appropriate sqn markings
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 08, 2017, 01:45:46 AM
I'll stick with RCAF😊 Which mark? Well, I plan to show it with TSR like on static display on airshow. It could be 1980 more or less.


Based on this info, you would probably look at CF-101 style schemes for the Arrow (given the CF-105 would have served in its place) and either CF-104 or CF-116 style schemes for the TSR.

(http://bobqat.com/AeroBob/Other_AF/CF-101_101065_409Sq-2.JPG)
(http://www.i-f-s.nl/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/104796_type.jpg)
(http://orig10.deviantart.net/4f43/f/2014/365/c/8/419_squadron_cf_116_by_f16crewchief-d8c0reo.jpg)
Title: Alvis 3.1's "How to update the Arrow to be equivalent to F-35"
Post by: jcf on August 17, 2017, 12:06:15 AM
Now with animation.  ;D

(http://photos.smugmug.com/BTS-2/i-J6vNdRk/0/fe690f76/O/ALVIS_ARROW_02.jpg)

(http://photos.smugmug.com/BTS-2/i-sZ44Xzp/0/203c40ae/O/ALVIS_ARROW_01.jpg)
Step 1 - reduce to approximately the same size as the F-35.

(http://photos.smugmug.com/BTS-2/i-j8vC6FJ/0/9453c302/O/ALVIS_ARROW_ANI.gif)
Make mods as necessary to introduce reduced RCS, etc.

Yer welcome.  ;D :icon_fsm:
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: tankmodeler on August 18, 2017, 12:03:56 AM
...... (and Avro-Canada had some concepts for ballistic missile interception, too)......

Outside of Mutually-Assureded Destruction already being a deterent, what was the challenge that prevented the concept of ABM-armed manned interceptors from happening, particularly for countries that did not possess any credible strategic nuclear capability of their own??

Apart from the technical difficulties of designing a long-range, high accelleration, missile which was guided by a long-range radar system?  Cost.   The US spent approximately several tens of billion dollars on it's Safeguard System to turn it off after a couple of months.  It took over 20 years to develop as well.
One of the key issues would be weight of the missile. Assume for a minute you could actually create and package the tracking and homing systems into a missile terminal stage that could do the job if it got close enough (and actually creating such a system is where all ABM missiles actually attempted fell down), you then need to get that terminal stage to the ICBM. Which, over Canada, is at the apex of its high, looping, ballistic trajectory from the USSR to the US. Canada is absolutely the worst place to launch an ABM as to achieve the altitude to get to the ICBM, you have to push it uphill the furthest, so the booster would be the biggest.

The Sprint ABM was to be launched to hit the ICBMs in the terminal mode, just before impact with a range of 25 miles. They weighed 7500 lb each.

THAAD is, of course, newer and uses much better technology than would be available to an early-60s ABM Arrow. Each missile has a range of 125 miles and weighs 1980 lb. And is still designed to hit incoming missiles within the upper atmosphere.

ICBMs generally top out at a 1200 mile max altitude.

An effective ABM for mid course intercept would need to be essentially another ICBM in size to get to the altitude.

An Arrow could never hoist an effective air launched ABM even if one existed at the time. And neither could any other aircraft of 1955-65.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 18, 2017, 02:49:38 AM
Random idea which may already have been covered:  operational CF-105 carrying AIR-2 Genie
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: The Big Gimper on August 18, 2017, 04:23:33 AM
Random idea which may already have been covered:  operational CF-105 carrying AIR-2 Genie

No need to say it twice. It will be done.  At least 4.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: elmayerle on August 18, 2017, 05:23:15 AM
Random idea which may already have been covered:  operational CF-105 carrying AIR-2 Genie

Or a later model with the AIM-68:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-68.html (http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-68.html)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: The Big Gimper on August 18, 2017, 10:20:30 PM
Random idea which may already have been covered:  operational CF-105 carrying AIR-2 Genie

Or a later model with the AIM-68:
[url]http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-68.html[/url] ([url]http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-68.html[/url])


Wow! Did not know about the Big Q!  Does Big Q exist in styrene?  Could not find one via Google? Maybe a 3D print opportunity?
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: kitnut617 on August 18, 2017, 10:57:51 PM
Random idea which may already have been covered:  operational CF-105 carrying AIR-2 Genie

Or a later model with the AIM-68:
[url]http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-68.html[/url] ([url]http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-68.html[/url])


Anymore drawings of that Evan ?
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: elmayerle on August 19, 2017, 12:19:45 AM
Only drawing I know of is at the link I gave.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 19, 2017, 04:21:00 AM
AIM-26 (http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-26.html) is also an option
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: elmayerle on August 19, 2017, 12:34:57 PM
Not totally germane to this topic, but that does suggest a F-106 armed with one AIM-68 and four AIM-26 missiles.  Of course, that F-106 could be in Canadian markings.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: kitnut617 on August 19, 2017, 10:21:41 PM
That AIM-68 is quite a big missile in 1/72 scale, about 1 1/2" long (38mm). I was thinking of using a Bullpup as a base but I don't think they're that long.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: elmayerle on August 20, 2017, 01:55:38 PM
My thoughts would be to use an AIM-47 or AIM-54 as a base.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: The Big Gimper on March 18, 2018, 10:55:35 PM
(https://scontent.fxds1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/29196698_1997770827110254_8193665400144134144_n.jpg?_nc_eui2=v1%3AAeHjUvZQyuk7jQkRvZf1jePjwT3H4dvSckRsJeHxRCoD7OzGC5qu9ac8elyL3Njgo6Rx9199kX775CITnBHk4_hWMo1ISptWqhJDjjIAkP7kGA&oh=c90488be207d60b536ac89fbb8e9abb8&oe=5B494BB7)

Right now there is an amazing display in the window of Wheels & Wings Hobbies (Toronto, Canada) on the history of the Avro Arrow in celebration of the 60th anniversary of its first flight on March 25, 1958, a true marvel of the Canadian aviation industry!

Check it out at 1880 Danforth Ave! — at Wheels & Wings Hobbies.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: The Big Gimper on April 16, 2018, 06:24:01 AM
Found on FB. A Japanese build of the 1/72 Hobbycraft Arrow old molds.

(http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/cockroach_killer_00x/imgs/f/6/f6a613fb.jpg)

(http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/cockroach_killer_00x/imgs/1/4/147b1710.jpg)

(http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/cockroach_killer_00x/imgs/3/d/3dc2555b.jpg)

Full build report (in Kanji) can be found here: http://mohsoh-hanger-no9.blog.jp/archives/52373227.html (http://mohsoh-hanger-no9.blog.jp/archives/52373227.html)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 17, 2018, 01:16:14 AM
Nice work
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: The Big Gimper on July 30, 2018, 08:59:27 AM
From Facebook.

From the poster:  Thought you'd like to see a photo of my dad, Chris Pike's log book showing him flying a CF-100 doing an Avro Arrow chase. Dates are January 11 and February 1.

And:  "Arrow Chase" on Jan 11 1959 was as chase to Arrow RL205? aka the only time RL205 flew?

(https://scontent.fyyz1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37989573_10205033060581879_3803316479751880704_n.jpg?_nc_fx=fyto1-1&_nc_cat=0&oh=0417f1de761a2e4fbc28a14b98ac19b0&oe=5BD69118)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 09, 2020, 03:35:40 AM
Useful reference (https://documents.techno-science.ca/documents/CASM-Aircrafthistories-AvroCanadaCF-105Arrownose.pdf)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 30, 2020, 04:08:55 AM
One I don't recall seeing before:

(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/avro-jpg.523446/)
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/avro-105-1-jpg.523449/)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: kitnut617 on June 30, 2020, 04:37:49 AM
It's in the "Arrowhead" Arrow edition I have Greg --- page 158 plus quite a long paragraph about the proposal on pages 159 & 160. Quite a few diagrams too.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: jcf on June 30, 2020, 07:33:09 AM
ZELL
(https://photos.smugmug.com/BTS-2/i-zcJn2MP/0/423d39c1/O/CF105_ZELL_01.png)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/BTS-2/i-X6WKHP3/0/28c0fcec/O/CF105_ZELL_02.png)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/BTS-2/i-GKGccNV/0/90c64062/O/CF105_ZELL_03.png)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: jcf on June 30, 2020, 07:38:45 AM
Reconnaissance version description.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/BTS-2/i-PCxQbMf/0/e86e6c05/O/CF105_RECC_01.png)

Mach 3 Arrow
(https://photos.smugmug.com/BTS-2/i-3KD6TQM/0/79d212db/O/CF105_MACH3_01.png)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: apophenia on June 30, 2020, 08:24:30 AM
And, of course, there's Arrow II - the scale-o-rama replica with Learjet engines  ;)

Edit: Hmmm, first image went peculiar on me ... here's another. Anyhoo, the Arrow II is/will be a 60% scale replica, with GE CJ610-6 turbojets from a Learjet 24D.

Edit/Edit: Okay, images don't wanna play for some reason. Here's a link: https://www.avromuseum.com/arrow-ii-project.html (https://www.avromuseum.com/arrow-ii-project.html)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: kitnut617 on June 30, 2020, 09:20:40 PM
Being done by the guys that run Action Hobby in Calgary.  I got to see the beginnings of that when I was still in Calgary quite a few years ago.  These people also did the 1/8th RC model that was flown in the Avro movie featuring Dan Aykroyd.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 01, 2020, 02:00:08 AM
It's in the "Arrowhead" Arrow edition I have Greg --- page 158 plus quite a long paragraph about the proposal on pages 159 & 160. Quite a few diagrams too.

Which book is that mate - not aware of it.  Can you post a picture of the cover or simply its ISBN?
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 01, 2020, 02:03:33 AM
I've said it before and will probably say it again:  We could really use some 1/48 ZELL conversion kits...
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: kitnut617 on July 01, 2020, 05:39:14 AM
It's in the "Arrowhead" Arrow edition I have Greg --- page 158 plus quite a long paragraph about the proposal on pages 159 & 160. Quite a few diagrams too.

Which book is that mate - not aware of it.  Can you post a picture of the cover or simply its ISBN?

This one Greg
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 02, 2020, 01:33:37 AM
Ta - I actually do have that one but must have forgotten those pages.  Mind you, I was thrown by the name - I was looking for a book titled Arrowheads.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: kitnut617 on July 02, 2020, 02:21:19 AM
Sorry, the 'word' Arrowheads is on the third page when you open it, which I believe are actually the authors, but I've always heard it referred to that way. The front of the book just says Avro Aircraft Arrow. The front also says 'Revised Edition'.
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 28, 2020, 03:04:44 AM
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202010/WHAT%2520IF%25202011/RAFARROWF203.jpg&key=39d4843e96d690eee1d96ae94c1002b8b2e8b3ddcbb94b23a6b4e561b5b772f3)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 01, 2020, 02:23:46 AM
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202013/JASDFCF-105JARROW02_zpse7fe512a.jpg&key=51fb370a1b600aca02fdac67926dcaf1f41a687c57277c12bb24331925d12fd7)
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202013/RAFARROWF201_zps8ffc2ab1.jpg&key=ceaf49ce7ddb70dfffb72b8fbdf46b980f724a29b641088ce69a9e2e0b5dd928)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 01, 2020, 02:24:54 AM
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202013/ALAARROW01_zps47f7d268.jpg&key=56be0da74a094e80b604fabdd41acd381edbc7bcfed15e6393162f9174f00e23)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: The Big Gimper on April 11, 2022, 09:56:49 PM
Peter J Robichaud Studios

Here are the paintings I've done so far of 'what if' Avro CF-105 Arrows in service paint schemes and markings they might have worn along with various upgrades.
1960s- 445 Wolverine Squadron in silver paint
1970s- 416 Lynx Squadron in light grey paint
1980s- 441 Silver Fox Squadron in tactical grey camouflage
Acrylic on canvas.

(https://scontent.fxds1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/278402467_644470689919697_3787556301507978508_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s600x600&_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=h6uqgLg-YgEAX-UQ_od&tn=C-Ijqip31g_KnWN0&_nc_ht=scontent.fxds1-1.fna&oh=00_AT8YXBSvJ0LGAZDVYsgcaCs6tPno5YGcMvEqXAhB-w3pcw&oe=6259EEA8)
(https://scontent.fxds1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/278225676_644470963253003_996869820442465930_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=hDjmBK-mQ3UAX_vJ8mr&tn=C-Ijqip31g_KnWN0&_nc_ht=scontent.fxds1-1.fna&oh=00_AT8AKLLnriHx_JxKh4OLJl2QhiCDGB1EvxRFIe812TS8tQ&oe=62597A46)
(https://scontent.fxds1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/278280163_644471049919661_1552421558613591035_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=ULX4iDl65U8AX-jFnH0&_nc_ht=scontent.fxds1-1.fna&oh=00_AT82qgH6PCMReATx0UM3IGU18WzV5mECftzQQ00fVX5aOA&oe=6258C5D9)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 12, 2022, 01:06:38 AM
 :smiley:
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: ysi_maniac on February 12, 2024, 03:08:05 AM
CFB-111

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/CFB-111.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/CFB-111.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
Title: Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
Post by: The Big Gimper on February 12, 2024, 05:28:21 AM
Holy Avro Aardvark Batman!