AIM-4/-26/-47, AGM-76 Falcon, and AIM-54 Phoenix

[dy031101]

The Nike-Phoenix was a proposed major upgrade and overhaul of the Nike-Hercules.

From what you did hear about Nike-Phoenix, did the overhaul make any change to the fire control set?

Both target-tracking sets and missile-tracking sets of the original Nike-Hercules system seem pretty bulky, for example.  And I found a Nike-Hercules what-if on the Shipbucket...... would it have been possible that the Nike-Phoenix system might employ more-compact sets?

I hope that at least I can use the MTR set for the Talos system as a substitute if I still need a MTR for every TTR......

[elmayerle]

Nike-Phoenix would have used, as I understand it, a suitable variation of the AWG-9 boxes in a combined tracking set; I've no doubt the resulting package would've been more compact while offering a rather larger antenna than the same electronics worked with on the F-14.

[dy031101]

Nike-Phoenix would have used, as I understand it, a suitable variation of the AWG-9 boxes in a combined tracking set; I've no doubt the resulting package would've been more compact while offering a rather larger antenna than the same electronics worked with on the F-14.

Combined tracking set...... as in a single radome (for example) handles both target tracking and missile tracking?

Shipbucket drawing of the missile (Nike-Hercules; is it safe to assume that the upgrade to the missile itself is invisible from the outside?) there for size comparison; for FCR I took the Sea Phoenix drawing and enlarged the radome a bit.  Would that be sufficient?  Or would I actually do perfectly well with the Sea Phoenix set altogether?

[elmayerle]

Definitely a single radome, much as on the aircraft carrying the Phoenix or it's predecessor (the Eagle).  The changes to the missile would be internal: new avionics, new and improved solid rocket motors, updated warhead design, etc.  What you've got looks good to me.  Since you're likely going for a longer range than the Sea Phoenix, a larger antenna would be helpful, but given the track-while-scan capabilities, it would probably work for both the Nike-Phoenix and the Sea Phoenix if you should have them together on one ship (likely, IMHO, a dedicated AAW ship).

[Jeffry Fontaine]

The Hughes Falcon family of missiles have been known by a number of designations over the years that this weapon was in service.  The following designations are known to have been used by the US and other nations that operated this air to air missile:

AAM-A-2, MX-798, MX-904, F-98, GAR-1, GAR-2, GAR-3, GAR-4, AIM-4, Rb-28, HM-58, GAR-11, AIM-26, Rb-27, HM-55. 

For the sake of keeping it simple the designations for AIM-4 and AIM-26 will be used for this discussion. 

Wikipedia - AIM-4 Falcon

Mark Fisher's Model Rocket Headquarters - AIM-4 Falcon History in Brief
Mark Fisher's Model Rocket Headquarters main page

AIM-4D Falcon Card Paper Model

Designation Systems.net, Directory of U.S. Military Rockets and Missiles - AIM-4 Falcon

Wikimedia - AIM-4 Falcon

Wikipedia - AIM-26 Falcon

Designation Systems.net, Directory of U.S. Military Rockets and Missiles - AIM-26 Falcon

Wikimedia - AIM-26 Falcon

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AIM-47 Falcon

Designation Systems.net, Directory of U.S. Military Rockets and Missiles - AGM-47 Falcon

Wikipedia - AIM-47 Falcon

Click to view larger image

(Image source: National Museum of the U.S. Air Force, Wright Patterson AFB, OH Image Number 060731-F-1234S-018.jpg)

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AGM-76 Falcon
Designation Systems.net, Directory of U.S. Military Rockets and Missiles - AGM-76 Falcon

Wikipedia - AGM-76 Falcon

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AIM-54 Phoenix

Wikipedia - AIM-54 Phoenix


(Image source:  U.S. Navy)

Designation Systems.net, Directory of U.S. Military Rockets and Missiles - AGM-54 Phoenix

FAS - AIM-54 Phoenix

NASA Dryden Flight Research Center Phoenix Missile Test Bed

U.S. Navy Museum of Armament and Technology, China Lake CA - AIM-54 Phoenix

U.S. Navy Fact File - AIM-54 Phoenix

Wikimedia - AIM-54 Phoenix


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All large and intimidating in their time and certainly one of the raw materials for your imagination when it comes to arming that fictional aircraft subject.  Having a few F-14 kits on hand has provided me with an excess of AIM-54 Phoenix shapes plus the Hasegawa weapons sets has provided even more of these things and with that many Phoenix shapes taking up space in the spare parts box one has to start considering other aircraft as possible candidates.  I was doodling with MS Paint a while back and wondered how many variations on the AIM-54 I could come up with that were still conservative in appearance which you can see in the attached image. 

Since the AIM-47 and AGM-76 were almost the same length and diameter I have included them in this topic as they are not as easy to find in any scale with the 1/72nd and 1/48th scale Italeri YF-12 kits being the most recent source and the old Revell 1/72nd scale YF-12 being the latter. 

For the sake of this discussion and back story maybe common sense prevailed and the Phoenix and Falcon programs were combined to standardize on one missile airframe with a variety of missions to perform.  At least that way you can find a use for all of those spare Phoenix shapes in the spare parts box. 


***Edit.  Since Greg included a link for the AIM-4 and AIM-26 I added some additional links for these missiles to the OP so it now encompasses all versions of the Falcon and Phoenix. 

[GTX_Admin]

Detailed overview of Falcon Family by Sean O'Connor here.

[Daryl J.]

I've often wondered if there could be an anti shipping version of the Phoenix.   

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Maybe arming the CF-105 with AIM-47 Falcon or AIM-54 Phoenix would be a good alternative to what comes with the kit.  Since the original issue of the HobbyCraft CF-105 Arrow had something that looked like a cross between the AIM-7 Sparrow and the Rapier SAM and the second release of the kit has absolutely nothing for weapons you have a clean slate to do what ever you wish with the kit.

[elmayerle]

If memory serves me correctly, the Designation Systems.net page on the AIM-47 includes a brief bit on the AIM-47B which looks much closer to the AIM-54 in appearance.  A similar AGM-76B would not be out of place nor would AGM or ASM variants of the AIM-54.  How about either a boosted extended range AIM-54 or one fitted with an integral rocket-ramjet (like several Russian missiles) for extended range (I can argue for four intakes either forming strakes ahead of the fins or clocked between the fins).

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Other than the AIM-26 Falcon offered in an old 1/72nd Airfix kit that I believe was a Saab J-35 Draken I have not seen any other model company produce this subject in any scale.  There is a 1/48th scale resin AIM-26 Falcon available from Squadron Mail Order's True Details line of aftermarket products.  It looks like an AIM-26 Falcon and that is good enough for me. 

Link to the product listing at Squadron: True Details USA AIM-26B Missile Set, Stock No: TD48542



click on image or html to view product page

[GTX_Admin]

I wonder IR guided AIM-47 or 54?

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I wonder IR guided AIM-47 or 54?

Easy enough to modify the nose and give it an optical lens for your IR seeker. 

I had never given much thought to the AIM-54 as an air to surface missile but now I am thinking it might look quite convincing in that role on the appropriate aircraft subject. 

[Jeremak]

I've often wondered if there could be an anti shipping version of the Phoenix.

Well: Harpoon have 520 kg overall weight, carry 221 kg warhead, and have max range 315 km (F version. D version: 220 km. And Phoenix: overall weight: 462, warhead: 60 kg, range 183 km. Similar size and weight, but Phoenix is pure rocket with different flight profile, and is much faster than Harpoon, so after fiting anti-armour warhead, it may be a nice "hole-maker". Imagine F-111B converted into strike role (RA-5 replacement, or "USN Buccaneer" role if you prefer) with this missles, hunting soviet surface raiders, escorted by F-14, looking for Tu-142.

[Silver Fox]

The real trick is to combine the two ideas; an IR-seeking, anti-shipping Phoenix. Using IR makes more sense for the ASM anyway, ships stand out against the ocean. You get better target selection as well; hot spots are weapons emplacements, machinery spaces and sensors.

Why not an anti-radar version? You've got a big fast missile with a good sized sensor and good range.
Of course... AIM-54 has a 15" diameter, AGM-88 is 10" and AIM-9 is 5". So inertial guidance to the target box, anti-radiation tracking in mid-course and then IR terminal guidance if desired. With a different ARM package, the weapon would be great against AWACS-type targets. Shut down the radar too latge and the missile already an IR lock... no escape. :)
It would be easy to bash together and would make a nice, subtle variation on the weapons loadout of a Tomcat. 

[elmayerle]

Some of what I've read indicates that the AIM-54 may have had a "home on jam" mode which would put it well on the way to becoming a long-range heavy ARM (but not as heavy or long-range as some Russian ones).

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Some of what I've read indicates that the AIM-54 may have had a "home on jam" mode which would put it well on the way to becoming a long-range heavy ARM (but not as heavy or long-range as some Russian ones).

Unsure if AIM-54A had the home-on-jam capability but the later versions of the Phoenix (AIM-54C) certainly did have this feature.   

[elmayerle]

Maybe arming the CF-105 with AIM-47 Falcon or AIM-54 Phoenix would be a good alternative to what comes with the kit.  Since the original issue of the HobbyCraft CF-105 Arrow had something that looked like a cross between the AIM-7 Sparrow and the Rapier SAM and the second release of the kit has absolutely nothing for weapons you have a clean slate to do what ever you wish with the kit.

For my own purposes, I once looked at this.  The Sparrow II and the AIM-54/AIM-47 have similar envelopes (finspan X length) and the only major requirement would be a new extendable launcher for the new missile of choice.  I'd probably add the production IRST on the Arrow's vertical fin or go, F-108-style, with one at each wing leading edge/fuselage join.

[kitnut617]

I wonder IR guided AIM-47 or 54?

Easy enough to modify the nose and give it an optical lens for your IR seeker. 

I had never given much thought to the AIM-54 as an air to surface missile but now I am thinking it might look quite convincing in that role on the appropriate aircraft subject.

Well, the AIM-54 is about the same size as a Martel

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Maybe arming the CF-105 with AIM-47 Falcon or AIM-54 Phoenix would be a good alternative to what comes with the kit.  Since the original issue of the HobbyCraft CF-105 Arrow had something that looked like a cross between the AIM-7 Sparrow and the Rapier SAM and the second release of the kit has absolutely nothing for weapons you have a clean slate to do what ever you wish with the kit.

For my own purposes, I once looked at this.  The Sparrow II and the AIM-54/AIM-47 have similar envelopes (finspan X length) and the only major requirement would be a new extendable launcher for the new missile of choice.  I'd probably add the production IRST on the Arrow's vertical fin or go, F-108-style, with one at each wing leading edge/fuselage join.

You are going to have that opportunity to try that out when you get that CF-105 kit.  I have included enough AIM-4 Falcon and AIM-54 Phoenix shapes so that you can arm it with either weapon :)

Plus some plastic rod/fibre that is of small enough diameter to be used for a variety of things for your detailing efforts.  This stuff is very similar to the bristles on paint brushes and brooms but much longer and certainly much more useful.  Just ask Brian da Basher as he has used it for some of the rigging wires on his biplane projects.  Sadly the other samples I have sent out have not generated any feedback on the usefulness of the stuff

[elmayerle]

And I thank you for those shapes.  Somewhere, most likely in my remote southern stash, I've got the IDEA boxing of the 1st generation Hobbycraft 1/48 Arrow and the "shapes" supplied with it bore little resemblance to any known missile.

One good thing about that link provided by our esteemed administrator, it has sufficient data to convert a AIM-47 to a AGM-76 and I'm very tempted to apply the same approach to the AIM-54 as an AGM-76B.  I wonder, now that Japan has shown the way by fitting an AESA antenna to their AAM-4b, would it be possible to build a dual-mode seeker by interleaving IR elements with AESA transmitter-receiver modules on a large missile airframe like that of the AIM-54?  That combined with an integral rocket-ramjet propulsion section, with or without a booster, could produce quite the dangerous long-range AAM.

[dy031101]

I stumbled across this when searching for inspirations......

I should have realized that the system would have a decent multi-target engagement capability- the whole set up IS derived from and an expansion upon the main weapon system of the F-14, after all.

[Daryl J.]

Note to self:  find some scenario where one of these types can be hung beneath either a Sea Vixen or Javelin in 1:48 scale and Non- British service.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Note to self:  find some scenario where one of these types can be hung beneath either a Sea Vixen or Javelin in 1:48 scale and Non- British service.

Phoenix and Sea Vixen sounds like a great idea.

[Rickshaw]

One of the primary reasons why the British turned their backs on Phoenix was the cost.  At several hundreds of thousands of dollars per round, it was deemed simply too expensive.

[Daryl J.]

Cost.  That will now be considered.   I may have to invent an exportable near-Phoenix.      (eyes first run Monogram F-14 Tomcat Phoenix shapes  and Evergreen Sheet in the Stash).

Thanks.  :)