Author Topic: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration  (Read 51041 times)

Offline apophenia

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #125 on: November 10, 2019, 06:58:21 AM »
Grumman Design 50, one of the studies that eventually led to the Hellcat.

Cool  :smiley:  So, as depicted here, the Design 50 was a fairly direct growth-development of the F4F-3? I'm assuming that the large belly fairing is an intake (not just an extended 'keel' for the main undercarriage)?
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Offline jcf

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #126 on: November 12, 2019, 12:18:33 PM »
Grumman Design 50, one of the studies that eventually led to the Hellcat.

Cool  :smiley:  So, as depicted here, the Design 50 was a fairly direct growth-development of the F4F-3? I'm assuming that the large belly fairing is an intake (not just an extended 'keel' for the main undercarriage)?

The original stab at an R-2600 engined F4F goes back to 1938, it was dropped and then returned to in 1940
which was when Design 50 was being worked on, the drawing is from the early days when they considered
keeping commonality with the F4F, they decide it was better to go to an all new design. The belly appendage
is most likely both an intake and fairing for an enlarged landing gear.
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Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #127 on: November 16, 2019, 02:18:31 AM »
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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #128 on: November 16, 2019, 02:40:54 AM »
  ;D  8)

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #129 on: November 16, 2019, 04:23:21 AM »
There's already kit...

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Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #130 on: November 16, 2019, 11:41:43 PM »
Given the Gee Bee's flight characteristics, it'd probably have downed more Americans than enemies.

If I built one, I'd put something in the back story about it being the first fighter to become a 'reverse' ace.

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Offline Geoff

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #131 on: November 17, 2019, 04:52:01 AM »
Maybe the USS Wasp launches blue camouflaged Wildcats to Malta instead of Spitfires earlier in 1940?




Perhaps the Eagle squadron used RAF types with US markings in the battle of Britain?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 04:55:24 AM by Geoff »

Offline apophenia

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #132 on: November 17, 2019, 05:30:14 AM »
The original stab at an R-2600 engined F4F goes back to 1938, it was dropped and then returned to in 1940 which was when Design 50 was being worked on, the drawing is from the early days when they considered keeping commonality with the F4F, they decide it was better to go to an all new design. The belly appendage is most likely both an intake and fairing for an enlarged landing gear.

Thanks Jon, good stuff! Okay, Design 50 has to be rendered  :D
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #133 on: December 06, 2019, 10:21:13 AM »
Odd thought, what if the Bristol Taurus and Hercules engines were put into production in the USA along with the Merlin?  Might we see them fitted to P-36 airframes, perhaps leading to more evolved P-36 versions with aspects of later P-40s in our reality?

Offline jcf

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #134 on: December 06, 2019, 01:10:11 PM »
Why? They weren't any better than the Wright and P & W engines.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #135 on: December 06, 2019, 02:24:42 PM »
well, other than offering alternate engines and sources of them, they would introduce the US industry to a different technology, sleeve-valves, that could alter future piston engine developments - and not just aeronautical engines.

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #136 on: December 07, 2019, 12:56:07 AM »


IMHO Wildcat could be the king of this GB. Anyway I am in love with my own design ;) :P kind of onanism :-\
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 12:58:10 AM by ysi_maniac »

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #137 on: December 07, 2019, 05:16:16 AM »
That is a wonderful melange` there Carlos!

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #138 on: December 07, 2019, 09:05:21 AM »


IMHO Wildcat could be the king of this GB. Anyway I am in love with my own design ;) :P kind of onanism :-\

Beautiful, though I think you'll need to move the tail surfaces back for controllability or, at the very least, go for a larger vertical fin and rudder.

Offline jcf

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #139 on: December 07, 2019, 03:33:54 PM »
well, other than offering alternate engines and sources of them, they would introduce the US industry to a different technology, sleeve-valves, that could alter future piston engine developments - and not just aeronautical engines.

The first sleeve-valve engine was a US automobile engine, Knight-type engines were produced for many
years:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_engine

Continental's first aero-engine, built in 1927, was a 9-cylinder sleeve-valve radial (a modified Wright), using
the Burt-McCollum Single-Sleeve Valve design (the same type as used by Bristol). They had  purchased rights
to the system from the owners, Argyll Motors, in 1925.

Scottish engineer Archie Niven worked for Continental and he had 70 patents, most assigned to Continental, like
this one from 1927 for a 9-cylinder sleeve-valve radial:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US1937123A/en?oq=1%2c937%2c123

Continental XR-1740 14-cylinder sleeve valve, 1939.

1939

« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 05:44:01 AM by jcf »
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actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
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Offline charliemikeromeo

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #140 on: December 08, 2019, 03:27:25 AM »
A little late, but...Boeing's Model 322, an intermediate design between the B-17 and B-29, with a pressurized fuselage and B-17 wings and tail:


https://charliemikeromeo.com/2019/12/07/boeing-model-322-superfortress/

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #141 on: December 08, 2019, 06:39:49 PM »
Boeing's Model 322.   Great find. :smiley:   Inspirational - Yes.   Challenging kit-bash.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #142 on: December 09, 2019, 12:46:45 AM »
well, other than offering alternate engines and sources of them, they would introduce the US industry to a different technology, sleeve-valves, that could alter future piston engine developments - and not just aeronautical engines.

The first sleeve-valve engine was a US automobile engine, Knight-type engines were produced for many
years:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_engine

Continental's first aero-engine, built in 1927, was a 9-cylinder sleeve-valve radial (a modified Wright), using
the Burt-McCollum Single-Sleeve Valve design (the same type as used by Bristol). They had  purchased rights
to the system from the owners, Argyll Motors, in 1925.

Scottish engineer Archie Niven worked for Continental and he had 70 patents, most assigned to Continental, like
this one from 1927 for a 9-cylinder sleeve-valve radial:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US1937123A/en?oq=1%2c937%2c123

Continental XR-1740 14-cylinder sleeve valve, 1939.

1939

Very, very interesting Jon, thanks for posting that.   :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

Offline elmayerle

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #143 on: December 09, 2019, 05:26:22 AM »
Boeing's Model 322.   Great find. :smiley:   Inspirational - Yes.   Challenging kit-bash.
In 1/72, I could see Academy's early B-17 plus an Airmodel conversion for the Model 307 Stratoliner as a good starting place if you wanted to keep that vertical tail; otherwise 'most any late-model 1/72 B-17 kit and the Airmodel conversion would do.

In 1/144, the Roden Stratoliner and either the Anigrand early B-17 or Minicraft's later B-17.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 05:32:39 AM by elmayerle »

Offline jcf

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #144 on: December 10, 2019, 03:13:59 AM »
The XR-1740-2 is roughly Bristol Hercules size so you could use Hercules
engines and cowlings to fake a Continental equipped on B-17, B-18, B-24
etc.

The XR-1740 description on the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum website
has this rather weird bit of writing:
"The Navy later sponsored a number of unconventional engine designs; however, few
entered production. In the case of the 1939 XR-1740-2 development, the outcome
was apparently typical of single-sleeve valve history. For example, Bristol’s Roy
Fedden, one of history’s great aircraft engine experts, was unable to mass
produce single-sleeve engines
."

 ???  ;D

I'm going to contact Brian Nicklas at NASM and ask him what's up with that.  ;D
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline jcf

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #145 on: December 10, 2019, 07:09:18 AM »
The Model 322 graphic is nice, however I believe the Model 322 was to a specification for a multi-engine
medium bomber and was not part of the B-29 evolution.


 Model 322

“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline Geoff

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #146 on: December 19, 2019, 02:26:05 AM »
Would there be a chance of the USAAC using the Buffaloes in the same way they had the SBD??


Inspiration perhaps:





Just found out that some of the Dutch aircraft were sent to the USAAC so Belgium is quite plausible.

Offline Geoff

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #147 on: December 19, 2019, 02:28:26 AM »
Would it be reasonable for "Eagle Squadron" to be wing sized and have a bomber sqd using British aircraft, but with USAAC stars? I have a Whitley needing a good idea

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #148 on: December 19, 2019, 03:14:33 AM »
Would it be reasonable for "Eagle Squadron" to be wing sized and have a bomber sqd using British aircraft, but with USAAC stars? I have a Whitley needing a good idea

In the whiffverse anything would be possible I would imagine...I'm not the GB Mod though.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 03:19:06 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Acree

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #149 on: December 19, 2019, 03:45:48 PM »
Absolutely!