Author Topic: Apophenia's Offerings  (Read 892511 times)

Offline upnorth

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3175 on: August 03, 2023, 12:54:58 PM »
I guess the big question here is: Are slow-flying ECM platforms like the Guardrail viable in contested airspace?

If not, the logical follow-on question would be: Are bizjet-based ECM platforms any more viable in contested airspace?

A fair point, that.

As I think about the current situation of Ukrainian air space, those sorts of assets would need to be applied quite clandestinely at the moment.

Say a willing NATO nation that had a border with Ukraine allowed the aircraft to be based on their territory and operated over their airspace so the aircraft systems could reach into Ukrainian airspace from outside.

However, that opens an entirley bigger can of political worms that I think NATO might not go for...
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3176 on: August 04, 2023, 02:17:16 AM »
If one used them back behind the front lines in a careful manner then yes.  If you try to do so in range of enemy air defences then definitely not.  Hence why UAVs have a greater role...and even they are being shot down in large numbers.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2023, 02:18:53 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3177 on: August 04, 2023, 03:32:13 AM »
If one used them back behind the front lines in a careful manner then yes.  If you try to do so in range of enemy air defences then definitely not.  Hence why UAVs have a greater role...and even they are being shot down in large numbers.

Part of my Falcon 20 for Ukraine concept was to get ECM out over the Black Sea. Sounds like that is really a job for (attritable) UAVs.
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3178 on: August 18, 2023, 08:20:58 AM »
Goofing around with the Freedom Fighter ...

Probably one of the least attractive fighter modifications ever was Northrop Grumman's 2003 F-5E SSBD (Shaped Sonic Boom Demonstration) conversion. [1] But it got me wondering about a CF-5 mod that would solve the Tinker-Toy's designed-in fuel crisis while also providing space in the nose for a radar antenna worthy of a CF-18 FLIT.

The idea is that a whiffily-backdated version of that ungainly, drooped snout would house a usefully-sized radar antenna - I'm thinking Westinghouse AN/APG-68 rather than the chunkier Hughes AN/APG-65 of the CF-18 - while the underbelly fairing behind the nose wheel bay acts as a conformal fuel tank. In this scheme, all single-seat CF-5s (CF116As) would be rebuilt with 2-seat cockpits ŕ la the CF116D in order to best act as lead-in trainers for the CF-18As. So, permanent LAU-7/A launchers mounted for AIM-9Ms or, later, ACMI pods ... no more wingtip tanks needed.

Illustrated is Bristol Aerospace's demonstrator based on CF116D 116834. This airframe would later be destroyed as a part of the Government of Canada's second out-of-court settlement with the Northrop Corporation.

_________________________________________________

[1] The SSBD conversion was part of DARPA's Quiet Supersonic Platform (QSP) programme aimed at reducing the intensity of sonic booms.
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline Gingie

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3179 on: August 19, 2023, 05:08:42 AM »
Profile reminds a little bit of a T-2 Buckeye

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3180 on: September 01, 2023, 09:44:49 AM »
Close-In Demining for the Ukrainian Counter-Offensive

The question came up elsewhere about what to do with available but turretless Leopard 1 hulls. My answer was a Leopard 1A5 hull fitted with the flail and other mine-clearing gear from the Bundeswehr's M48-based MiRPz Keiler. The difficulty with that concept is the time that it would take to re-tailor that Keiler and produce it for a Minenräumpanzer conversion for the Leopard 1 hull.

A simpler - and quicker to implement - scheme would be converting Leopard 1 hulls into assault breacher vehicles kitted out to launch Mine Clearing Line Charges (MICLICs). The mounting should be of 'universal' NATO type - equally able to launch British Pythons (as shown) or US Linear Demolition Charge Systems (LDCS).

I've called this conversion the Leo-Piton since the British Python system has been mounted. If the US system was installed instead, it would become the Leo-LSZZ (Liniyna systema zaryadu dlya znesennya).

The tactical advantages of such conversions would be two-fold. First, despite being lightly armoured for a tank, the Leopard 1 hull is well-protected compared to most demining line charge launch vehicles. Second, is the high reverse speed of the Leopard 1A5. In other words, the Leo-Piton will be able to launch its charges and then, using its two reverse gears, back away at 26-to-28 km/h without exposing its more lightly-armoured sides or rear to hostile fire.

I've cheated a bit on the original question because my conversion actually starts off fitted with a turret - albeit a non-standard one. Unlike other Leopard 1A5s, the Danish Leopard 1A5 DK model retained the old welded turret. For my Leo-Piton conversion, the ex-Danish Leo turret has been heavily modified. With the mantlet removed, the front of the turret has been given an extreme slope. Aft of its forward-moved crew positions, the turret has been 'bobbed' to create space for Python or LDCS containers and their launch rockets.

Anybody have any thoughts of the viability of such a line-charge launcher conversion in the Real World?
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3181 on: September 01, 2023, 08:16:11 PM »
Like most armour, if supported by infantry &. in this case, other AFV's (including gun tanks) it should have a fairly good chance of being successfully deployed
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3182 on: September 02, 2023, 02:57:35 AM »
Another options for turret less Leo 1s would be to install a ATGM launcher in its place - perhaps even something like the ground launched Hellfires see here:



or even here:

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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3183 on: September 05, 2023, 09:27:43 AM »
Thanks folks.

Next up for turretless Leopard 1s is the MiRPz Keiler 2 - a mine-clearing flail conversion. As the name suggests, this is Rheinmetall's earlier Minenräumpanzer gear installed on a Leopard 1A5 hull.

More on this later ... when it forms the basis of an Engineering Dept. discussion.

[edit] Now up: https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=10845.0
« Last Edit: September 22, 2023, 06:02:04 AM by apophenia »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3184 on: September 06, 2023, 01:05:05 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3185 on: September 22, 2023, 06:06:40 AM »
Another from the Engineering Dept. discussion Mineclearing Flail Tanks for Ukraine:
-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=10845.0

This time, another hypothetical Leopard 1 conversion with an Aardvark RACE A-inspired hydraulically-driven mine flail.

-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=10845.msg211578#msg211578
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3186 on: October 09, 2023, 10:18:29 AM »
Getting Gripens to Ukraine - Scenarios

This is a lead-in to a profile (in the next post) ...

___________________________________________


Scenario 1: Sweden surrenders some Gripen fighters from Flygvapnet stocks. [1] At present, Sweden has tied delivery of Gripens to Ukraine to accession to NATO (presumably hoping that their future allies will put pressure on Turkey rather than pointlessly pandering to Erdogan).

This is the most probable RW scenario for the appearance of Saab JAS Gripen fighters in Ukraine. Sweden diverts some of the Gripen C fighters from their planned Flygvapnet upgrade programme and redirects them to Ukraine.

___________________________________________

Scenario 2: The Czech government releases its fleet of 14 x Gripens for use in Ukraine.

Prague had been in discussions to extend their lease of 14 x Gripens. Instead a joint US-Swedish offer was accepted to replace these aircraft with a larger number of F-16 fighters from US ANG stocks. Under this deal, the 20 x Czech Air Force F-16Cs are due to serve until the arrival of 24 x F-35As. All CzAF 'Zmije' ('Vipers') will be single-seaters. Czech pilot-training on F-16Ds will occur under USAF auspices at Morris ANG base in Tucson, AZ.

___________________________________________

Scenario 3: Leased Hungarian Air Force Gripens are surrendered for use in Ukraine.

In late September 2023, Hungarian PM Viktor Orbán announced that Hungary was in no rush to approve Sweden's bid to join NATO. By way of response, the government of Sweden reversed its January 2012, approval for a lease extension on Hungarian Gripens to 2026. Effective 31 October 2023, supplies of Swedish spares and services were cancelled.

No compensation was given but Sweden offered to pay for the return of Magyar Légiero (HunAF) Gripens. The offer was left open until its expiry date of 30 November 2023. On Monday, 27 November, the Országgyulés approved payment terms for the return of all 14 x HunAF Gripens.

Swedish pilots collected the HunAF lease aircraft from Kecskemét AB to fly the 600 km hop to Poland's 23 Baza Lotnicza just east of Minsk Mazowiecki. Ukrainian pilots previously trained on Gripens in Sweden then picked up their new mounts at 23 BL for transfer to unspecified operational air bases in Ukraine.

___________________________________________

Scenario 4: Saab buys back Gripens from South African

After several years where SAAF Gripens were all inoperable due to spares shortage, a maintenance plan was agreed for the 13 x airframes in flying or near-flyable condition. To help fund this package, Pretoria agreed to Sweden's request to buy-back the 12 x South African Gripens held in long-term storage. The SAAF would retain 13 of these fighters in flying condition until they could be replaced by a new fighter aircraft type. At that point, the remaining 13 x Gripens would also be sold back to Saab.

While Saab refurbished the first dozen ex-SAAF Gripens for use in Ukraine, South Africa closed a deal with Indian brokers to purchase mothballed MiG-29s from Malaysia. Under this deal, 16 x ex-TUDM MiG-29S fighters were bought. Partially disassembled at RMAF Kuantan, the MiG-29 airframes were flown out by Indian Air Force IL-76MD Gajraj airlifters. Their initial destination was the IAF's No.11 Base Repair Depot at Ojhar (near Nashik, NE of Mumbai). In the meantime, SAAF pilots had been flight-training on IAF MiG-29UBs while South African maintenance crews - SAAF and civilian - had been familiarizing themselves with the MiG airframe.

At No.11 BRD, under the aegis of HAL, a dozen of the ex-TUDM fighters were overhauled and given a partial MiG-29UPG upgrade (the other 6 airframes were upgraded to full MiG-29UPG2 standards for delivery to the IAF). Once the upgrades were complete, experienced Indian pilots flew the 12 x MiG-29SA [3] fighters on a test-run south to Thiruvananthapuram in Kerala. The dozen fighters were then flown non-stop from TRV to South Africa accompanied by two IAF IL-78MKI in-flight refuelling tankers of No. 78 Squadron. [4] Upon arrival at SAAF AFB Makhado at Louis Tri in Limpopo, the twelve MiG-29SA fighters were officially turned over to South Africa.

___________________________________________

[1] Currently, the Flygvapnet operates 71 x Gripen C fighters and 23 x Gripen D 2-seaters.

[2] The leased CzAF Gripens are to serve alongside lighter Aero L-159 ALCAs.

[3] This MiG-29SA designation had previously been applied to a Slovak upgrade package but these aircraft had all been transferred to Ukraine in 2023. As upgrade by HAL/IAF, the MiG-29SAs lacked the UPG's advanced weapon control systems and EW suite as well as UPG22's AESA radar.

[4] SAAF pilots and support staff - now fully-trained on the MiG-29 - returned to South Africa aboard the two IL-78 FRA.
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3187 on: October 09, 2023, 10:20:32 AM »
PS ZSU (Ukrainian Air Force) Gripen C of the 288th ('Karpatskyy') IAP home-based at Starokostiantyniv. [1] Forward-based - at an undisclosed location - this fighter-bomber belongs to the 288th's udarnyy zahin (strike detachment).

An ex-Hungarian AF aircraft, 'Siryy 36' carries four US-supplied GBU-12 Paveway LGBs and associated Rafael AN/AAQ-28 Litening targeting pod. Also note the wingtip-mounted Diehl IRIS-T short-range AAMs. [1]

'Siryy 36' wears its original 'air superiority grey' scheme with HunAF insignia overpainted. Stand PS ZSU markings consist of the Ukrainian roundel in six positions and a tryzub stencilled onto the tail. Also on the tailfin is a simplified crest of the 288 IAP - the 'Wolf' emblem being the symbol of the entire Carpathian Legion.
____________________________


[1] For 6 months, PS ZSU Gripens flew with obsolete AIM-9M 'self defence' missiles on their wingtip pylons because IRIS-T delivery was repeatedly delayed by German Kanzler, Olaf Scholz.

ps: Found the base image through Google image but, alas, no idea who the original artist was  :(
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3188 on: October 09, 2023, 05:01:59 PM »
With Slovakia added to the anti-Ukrainian cabal within NATO, & the possibility that even Poland may swing that way after their election, getting NATO to agree to anything to help Ukraine, as an organisation, or to ever permitting their entry into the alliance, is looking less-&-less likely.

It's a real worry! :icon_crap:
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3189 on: October 10, 2023, 04:22:48 AM »
With Slovakia added to the anti-Ukrainian cabal within NATO, & the possibility that even Poland may swing that way after their election, getting NATO to agree to anything to help Ukraine, as an organisation, or to ever permitting their entry into the alliance, is looking less-&-less likely.

Agreed on Slovakia. A definite sign of things coming unstowed. IMHO, NATO suffers from similar 'tolerance' issues to those crippling the EU. At this stage, a decisive NATO leadership would push back against recalcitrant members.

Battlegroup Slovakia currently includes Czech, German, Slovenia, and US troops. Why continue to reward the likes of Fico et al? Instead, BG Slovakia should be stood down and its foreign troops redeployed to bolster eVA BG in Romania and BG Poland. Such a move might even please the attention-seeking Fico and his supporters but the AFSR and the rest of Slovak society would get the message.

What is the likelihood of this happening? Well, look at Hungary so far. The HUN eVA BG features Hungary as its own 'Framework Nation' - which obviously appealled to Orbán's vanity. It doesn't seem to matter what pro-Putin nonsense comes out of Budapest, Hungary continues to be a 'valued ally'. Maybe that should change too?

Were I Jens Stoltenberg, I'd be advocating the shut-down of HUN eVA BG. I'd move its Italian troops to Romania and its US and Croatian troops to Poland. Which brings up those Polish elections. If PiS is re-elected, I doubt that squabbles with Kyiv will continue - such 'tensions' were largely political constructs to rally the rural base of PiS. In the end, Poland knows very well that they need a strong Ukraine between them and Russia.

Another potential factor here is Gen Milley stepping down. I'm not sure when the General became so negative but, on Ukraine, Milley has been a complete 'Despair Squid'. Mind you, Gen Brown's 'Accelerate Change' motto doesn't seem to apply to Kyiv either. Despite being a former F-16 jockey, Brown has been part of Washington's go-slow on getting Western fighters to Ukraine. Will he change his tune now that his is Chair? We wait with bated breath ...
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline kim margosein

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3190 on: October 10, 2023, 11:32:54 AM »
The previous Slovakian government a lot of their good stuff to Ukraine.   They are now effectively without an Air Force, and they also furnished a lot of Soviet era APCs and tje like.  The trouble is no one under 40 really remembers what Soviet occupation days were like. 

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3191 on: October 17, 2023, 06:34:50 AM »
No backstory on this one. It was prompted by Greg's suggestion:
-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=904.msg212172#msg212172

BTW: The OD version was based on a Gaëtan Marie USAAC profile.
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3192 on: October 23, 2023, 10:07:25 AM »
No backstory on this one since it is a real, unbuilt project - the German side of Panavia having set themselves the task of designing a STOL strike-fighter sometime late in the Cold War.

I'm a sucker for odd-ball mutts ... and they don't get much odder or muttier than Panavia's Schubschwenkler STOL Entwurf !
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3193 on: October 23, 2023, 03:15:45 PM »
It looks more suited to extra-atmospheric operations than atmospheric flight! :-\
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3194 on: October 24, 2023, 02:00:48 AM »
No backstory on this one. It was prompted by Greg's suggestion:
-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=904.msg212172#msg212172

BTW: The OD version was based on a Gaëtan Marie USAAC profile.

Thank you
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3195 on: October 24, 2023, 02:03:26 AM »
No backstory on this one since it is a real, unbuilt project - the German side of Panavia having set themselves the task of designing a STOL strike-fighter sometime late in the Cold War.

I'm a sucker for odd-ball mutts ... and they don't get much odder or muttier than Panavia's Schubschwenkler STOL Entwurf !

For those unaware, it had two engines:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3196 on: October 25, 2023, 03:14:30 AM »
For those unaware, it had two engines:

Thanks Greg. I'd lost track of my copy of that image. Nor have I found much other info on this Schubschwenkler ...

-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/tornado-projects.3/page-4#post-615223
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3197 on: November 26, 2023, 07:21:33 AM »
PZL P.11h float-fighter - a quickie based on a suggestion by Greg:

-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=10919.msg213276#msg213276
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline ericr

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3198 on: November 26, 2023, 06:57:29 PM »

nice floatplane  ;)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3199 on: November 27, 2023, 01:20:44 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.