Author Topic: The FAA go American  (Read 40282 times)

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2013, 10:09:59 AM »
Another aircraft with some very good what-if potential in this same theme would be the North American A-2 (AJ) Savage in FAA markings.  Especially with the nuclear mission that it was designed for.  Late FAA Savage S.2 with Red Beard in lieu of the American Mk4 nuclear bomb


It would certainly look good, but at 51,000 lb MTO and nearly 72 ft wingspan, it's a LOT of aircraft for the RN's little carriers. It would probably be just about doable though: S-2 trackers (72 ft span) operated from various Colossus class carriers, the smallest in post-war service. Weight-wise, only Ark Royal ever operated Phantoms, (although sister ship Eagle could have been re-fitted to do so) though I'm not sure if she could launch and recover them at their maximum theoretical weight (56,000 lb MTO). However carriers as small as the Centaurs operated 46,750 lb Sea Vixens, so you might imagine it possible to operate the Savage from them with modifications to the ships and/or reduced MTO for the aircraft.

However it's hard to see the Savage lasting long enough to get Red Beard: the latter only came into service in 1962, and by then in the real world Buccaneers were available to carry it. In my small-carrier RN whiff world, the Skyhawk would probably have ended up as the Red Beard carrier (it only weighed 1,750 lb comapred to the 10,000 lb of the Mk.4).
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2013, 11:08:28 AM »
Another aircraft with some very good what-if potential in this same theme would be the North American A-2 (AJ) Savage in FAA markings.  Especially with the nuclear mission that it was designed for.  Late FAA Savage S.2 with Red Beard in lieu of the American Mk4 nuclear bomb
It would certainly look good, but at 51,000 lb MTO and nearly 72 ft wingspan, it's a LOT of aircraft for the RN's little carriers. It would probably be just about doable though: S-2 trackers (72 ft span) operated from various Colossus class carriers, the smallest in post-war service. Weight-wise, only Ark Royal ever operated Phantoms, (although sister ship Eagle could have been re-fitted to do so) though I'm not sure if she could launch and recover them at their maximum theoretical weight (56,000 lb MTO). However carriers as small as the Centaurs operated 46,750 lb Sea Vixens, so you might imagine it possible to operate the Savage from them with modifications to the ships and/or reduced MTO for the aircraft.

However it's hard to see the Savage lasting long enough to get Red Beard: the latter only came into service in 1962, and by then in the real world Buccaneers were available to carry it. In my small-carrier RN whiff world, the Skyhawk would probably have ended up as the Red Beard carrier (it only weighed 1,750 lb comapred to the 10,000 lb of the Mk.4).


All good arguments.  So what if one of the USS Essex class carriers had been provided to the Royal Navy on a long term lease or as an outright gift during the cold war.  The only problem is that to have one ready to go to sea there would be a need for two additional hulls to maintain such readiness.  One in refit, one working up and one deployed in support of NATO in the Mediterranean or the North Atlantic.  I suspect manpower requirements would have made that nearly impossible even with a free carrier but it is always nice to imagine what an FAA or RAN Savage would look like :)

***Addendum

Finding in-service dates is hit and miss.  Ginter's book on the Savage states that at least one squadron was still operating the aircraft until 1959-1960. 

I liked the idea of Red Beard arming the FAA Savage but the weapon was too late for matching up with the airframe.  Still it would be a great what if to imagine that the Savage had been produced in greater numbers and remained in service for much longer to get that match up.  Actual production numbers dictated an early retirement since there was no new airframes available to replace what was getting worn out in service but it is nice to imagine it as as a "coulda-shoulda-woulda" :)

Boeing page on the NAA Savage
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 11:46:15 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2013, 12:22:06 PM »
I'm going to have to take that FAA AJ idea now!  Look for a profile in under the wire  ;)

Sorry you had such trouble with the paint but you seem to have made lemonade out of it!! Can't wait to see her in her markings, keep it up man  :)
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2013, 12:45:04 PM »
Could woulda shoulda built the Malta's and all four Audacious selling the Colossus & Majestics, Centaurs and remaining Armoured fleets.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2013, 01:09:38 PM »
I'm going to have to take that FAA AJ idea now!  Look for a profile in under the wire  ;)

Sorry you had such trouble with the paint but you seem to have made lemonade out of it!! Can't wait to see her in her markings, keep it up man  :)

Another potential nuclear delivery platform to consider is the Grumman Tracker.  While it was powered by a pair of R1820's in real life, what if it had been fitted with R2600's or R2800's?  Take out the the TACCO and SENSO stations and turn that area into a full size weapons bay.  Remove the drop down radar abaft the bomb bay and put a more appealing nose on the thing to house an attack radar and you all of a sudden have a rather interesting looking little attack aircraft.  I have been experimenting with a 1:72nd scale Hasegawa/Minicrapht S-2 Tracker to see how it would look with a full bomb bay.  A bit of careful scribing to determine the other bomb bay door and some extra careful razor saw action to remove it and you have a rather spacious cavity that can be filled with bomb racks and some equipment racks.  I sanded off the access door on the starboard side but that could be left as a maintenance access panel if you don't want to obscure it.  I figure the crew would be two: Pilot and a Bombardier/Navigator like on the A-6 and have access to the cockpit being through the cockpit transparencies on either side (just like on the OV-1 Mohawk).  Stores pylons under the wings can remain but that pesky searchlight needs to go unless you want to convert that to your radar pod.  The MAD unit at the rear was trimmed away and sanded so that it is no longer showing as that feature.  I was toying with the idea of adding a ball turret from a B-17 or B-24 to the space previously occupied by the surface search radar since the hole is large enough but doing that means you have to add in another crew member and once inside the turret there is no getting out of it so I ruled that out.  Still it is a possible version to consider if you wanted to experiment with alternatives to a standard S-2 Tracker.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 01:17:23 PM by Jeffry Fontaine »
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2013, 06:16:20 PM »
Perhaps a maritime strike and ASW or even an AEW version of the Savage?

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2013, 07:58:17 PM »

All good arguments.  So what if one of the USS Essex class carriers had been provided to the Royal Navy on a long term lease or as an outright gift during the cold war.  The only problem is that to have one ready to go to sea there would be a need for two additional hulls to maintain such readiness.  One in refit, one working up and one deployed in support of NATO in the Mediterranean or the North Atlantic.  I suspect manpower requirements would have made that nearly impossible even with a free carrier but it is always nice to imagine what an FAA or RAN Savage would look like :)


Well presumably the Essexes would have been operated in place of other, less satisfactory carriers, so some crew could be re-assigned from them.

I suspect that there are very definite "windows" for an Essex loan/sale:

1. The classic, much discussed one is from the late 1960s to mid 1970s, the reason for rejecting it being given as the cost/time of converting them to RN standards and the fact that by then, they were as old and tired as the old, tired carriers they were intended to replace. The RV didn't "run out" of servicable carriers in that period, rather the government made a deliberate political/financial decision to get rid of them. With appropriate funding, we could have had any combination of Ark Royal, Eagle, Victorious, Hermes and Bulwark in service into the early 1980s.

2. There was another window between WWII and Korea, when a number of Essexes were laid up and presumably available. The UK government would have had to be quick and decisive to take advantage of it though (I know, pure fantasy...), because when Korea kicked off, all but two badly damaged ones were put back into USN service. It's important to remember as well that one of the reasons for the RN's 1950s carrier shortage was that many ships' builds/rebuilds were being repeatedly revised and extended as carrier technology and aircraft weights advanced in leaps and bounds. The USN was somewhat insulated from this by the sheer number and size of hulls they had, but presumably, a small RN Essex force would have spent much of the 1950s and early 1960s being re-built and re-built again, just as the real RN carriers were.

Of course, there's nothing to stop you from whiffjitsuing the history to make it credible: a slightly richer post-war UK, slightly more Essexes actually built,  a later start to the Korean War, etc, etc....

Quote
I liked the idea of Red Beard arming the FAA Savage but the weapon was too late for matching up with the airframe.  Still it would be a great what if to imagine that the Savage had been produced in greater numbers and remained in service for much longer to get that match up.  Actual production numbers dictated an early retirement since there was no new airframes available to replace what was getting worn out in service but it is nice to imagine it as as a "coulda-shoulda-woulda" :)

Boeing page on the NAA Savage


You might imagine that if the RN bought Savages but was unable to operate the Skywarrior and didn't build the Buccaneer, then the Savages might have been re-built with turboprops and more modern booster jets, with UK industry buying the jigs and tooling from NA when the USN no longer wanted them in order to keep them going indefinately. There was a prototype turboprop Savage, but it foundered on the Allison T40 fiasco : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A2J_Super_Savage  You could easily imagine it with Pythons or Double-Mambas....

The problem with taking the Savage very far into the 1960s as an attack bomber though, would be speed. 460mph at 41,000 ft was quite respectable when it was designed in the late 1940s, but it must have been looking a bit suicidal ten years later.  It would be hard to ignore the alternative merits of hanging a Red Beard and two drop tanks on a Skyhawk, particularly since you could have it with a UK engine (the J65 was a US Sapphire, which means an Avon would also fit).

You could, of course, convert the Savages into tankers to extend the range of the Skyhawks....

Something else I'm looking at is an FAA Douglas Skyknight, either the real one or the projected swept-wing development. Can't find a UK engine that will slot in in place of the J-34s though. However, there was a plan to fit Skyknights with the J-46 in enlarged nacelles, and only another 3" diameter on that will get you a Metrovick Beryl....
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2013, 12:34:13 AM »
Jeff, have you ever seen the Grumman XTB2F-1?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_XTB2F

It was meant to replace the Avenger on board the CVBs but the USN was too weary of running twin engined aircraft off of carriers at the time (not sure why...).

You can't deny that it had some influence on the Tracker and it could certainly be viewed as a ancestral attack version.  It also had a dorsal and ball turret with twin .50s in them along with a 75mm cannon in the nose like the B-25s.  Something to think about maybe?

I have a 3-view drawing of it if you want one.

So...FAA A-4s huh?  Which model do you think would best suite the RN?
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2013, 08:29:57 AM »
I've just come to pick decals for the Panther and realised a major flaw in my story: even if the RN got Panthers in time for Korea, it wouldn't have had carriers that could operate them. No carrier of any navy got an angled deck or a steam catapult until after Korea and I strongly suspect that the Colossus class carriers that served there couldn't have operated Panthers without them. Argentina's Independencia (ex HMS Warrior) was rated as unsuitable to operate to operate their Panthers even with an interim angled deck due to her catapults not being strong enough. I can't find any example of a Colossus or Majestic operating jets without an angled deck and a steam catapult.

The USN was able to operate jets from straight-deck Essexes because they were big:  with 850ft (ish) flight decks, they were 75 ft longer than even Eagle & Ark Royal, let alone the Colossus class....

Hmmm - needs thunking about..... ???
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2013, 09:18:48 AM »
Sounds like another layer of what if to me :) 

How about cross decking with the FAA squadron attached to an American Carrier Air Group/Wing and operating from one of the jet capable carriers used during the Korean War?  About all you need to add is a carrier group identification letter to the tail and the squadron MODEX code to the wings. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2013, 09:32:16 AM »
Yes I considered that, but I've come up with another solution: HMS Eagle commissioned in 1951 with Attackers, which means she could operate a Panther-like jet with her straight deck and hydraulic cats. IRL, she never went to Korea, but what I'm going to do is have her finished a bit quicker so she can do a tour there.

My FAA Seahawks decal sheet has Eagle codes, so we're off.... :)
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2013, 09:53:11 AM »
Problem solved!!!  Send Eagle to Korea!

My other thought would be some sort of training/liaison squadron with the USN.  You have your planes but your CV is still being built so come join the CVW of one of ours and learn the ropes sort of thing.  Might be a little far fetched as I've never known a time when 2 countries operated squadrons off the same ship, especially back then but who knows?  This is whiff world after all  ;)

Weaver, I'm going to do a pair (if not, at least one) of the FAA nukes we discussed.  Want to come up with a back story for them and I'll whip up the profile(s)?  Preference over an AJ or A-4?  Let me know  :)
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2013, 10:31:02 AM »
Well, topside is decalled and looking good. :)

I went for 738 squadron's black Pegasus badge in the end, because it fits on the nose and stands out well against the Sky paint. In the end, fitting all the markings on wasn't as much of a pain as I thought it would be. Buzz numbers come in a variety of sizes so I picked a small one. It's going to be a bit light on stencilling because the aftermarket sheet doesn't come with much (just oddball bits that wouldn't be on any kit sheet) and the original sheet is ruined (and American). I'm pretty sure I've got a sheet of ejector seat triangles upstairs and a bit of raiding should get me a few other bits and bobs. Might have to give the step guide lines a miss though: too much other stuff in the way...



My other thought would be some sort of training/liaison squadron with the USN.  You have your planes but your CV is still being built so come join the CVW of one of ours and learn the ropes sort of thing.  Might be a little far fetched as I've never known a time when 2 countries operated squadrons off the same ship, especially back then but who knows?  This is whiff world after all  ;)

Argentina's Skyhawks have operated off Brazil's carrier quite recently. It was also common practice for the RN and USN to do cross-decking exercises. I don't think they ever flew significant numbers of aircraft off each other's decks but they certainly demonstrated the capability. You can find nice pics of RN and USN Phantoms sat next to each other on adjacent cats, with the RN one's nose right up in the air on it's jump-strut...

Of course, the NATO and national exchange programmes mean that many pilots do a tour with another air arm, flying the host's aircraft in the host's colours, so the experience gets spread around even without swapping actual aircraft. I imagine that if the FAA really was buying Panthers they'd use this facility to the hilt to get their pilots up to speed...

Quote
Weaver, I'm going to do a pair (if not, at least one) of the FAA nukes we discussed.  Want to come up with a back story for them and I'll whip up the profile(s)?  Preference over an AJ or A-4?  Let me know  :)

Great, but bear with me a few days: not going to get much chance to go online at work for the rest of this week...

In my back-story the FAA don't get nukes until Red Beard comes along in the 1960s, so the carrier would most likely be a licenced produced Douglas-Blackburn* Skyhawk S.1, which would be based on an early A-4A to A-4D airframe, i.e. one with a J-65/Sapphire engine. Look to Buccaneer squadrons for markings...

*It has to be Blackburn who are the UK licencees, because I actually knew someone called Doug Blackburn: too good to pass up... ;D
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 07:51:29 PM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2013, 12:32:44 AM »
Now here's an interesting drawing from the Wiki page:



There appear to be two folded heights on that, 17'10" and 16'11", and in the side view that shows them, the tip tanks arn't on (which is wierd because they wern't detachable). The lower height appear to be achieved by having the main gear compressed, so my question is, was that a state the aircraft could be left in, or was it something that was only done just before launch?

Why do I care? Because the tallest RN hangers were 17'6": my FAA Panther might need a Gannet-style double-wing fold...... ???


Here's a thought: might it be possible to fold the wings up and then rotate them backwards manually so that they site more-or-less horizontally, clipped onto the ends of the tailplanes? if the front hinge had an additional rotation pin and the back one had a manually removable one, it might work.....
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2013, 03:39:57 AM »
Why not just reduce the angle of the folded wings to 45 or 50 degrees to get that needed clearance?  The negative being that your parking footprint is expanded but you could at least get the thing inside the hangar deck. 

Another option to consider would be the shorter wing fold section like that of the F8F Bearcat.   

There is also the older, yet proven method of wing fold as used on the Avenger and Hellcat by having the wings fold and rotate to lie along the fuselage lengthwise.   
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 03:42:27 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2013, 07:53:52 AM »
Why not just reduce the angle of the folded wings to 45 or 50 degrees to get that needed clearance?  The negative being that your parking footprint is expanded but you could at least get the thing inside the hangar deck. 

Because space is critical on small RN carriers. When your total aircraft compliment is only 35, "a few less" can be the difference between a viable force and a non-viable one. The only RN carriers to approach the size of an Essex were the Ark Royal and Eagle.

Quote
There is also the older, yet proven method of wing fold as used on the Avenger and Hellcat by having the wings fold and rotate to lie along the fuselage lengthwise.

Well that's pretty much what I'm suggesting, but as a modification of the existing structure rather than a complete re-design.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #66 on: August 24, 2013, 09:13:10 PM »
I've always wondered why everyone abandoned the "Grumman Fold" when jets came along, including Grumman.  There has to be a good reason why only piston engine aircraft have used that particular method of folding the wings.  Something to do with high speeds?  Thin vs. Thick wings? Ability/inability for outer wing to carry heavy stores?  Anyone have any idea?
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #67 on: August 24, 2013, 09:51:26 PM »
I've always wondered why everyone abandoned the "Grumman Fold" when jets came along, including Grumman.  There has to be a good reason why only piston engine aircraft have used that particular method of folding the wings.  Something to do with high speeds?  Thin vs. Thick wings? Ability/inability for outer wing to carry heavy stores?  Anyone have any idea?

Well it's the simplest, strongest wing-fold system IF you've got the hangar clearance for it. If you don't need a fancier system, then why have it: simplicate and add lightness.....

The RN was so keen on the idea because their armoured hangars were very heavy, so every square foot of wall saved translated into a big weight saving. Also, the only way to improve aircraft complement on a closed-hangar carrier was to have a double-decked hangar, which only made the weight/topweight problem worse. Over the course of it's evolution, the hangar height on Illustrious class carriers actually went down from 16' to 14' in stages, which is why the latest and lowest-mileage of them at the end of the war were also the hardest and most expensive to contemplate re-building.... ::)
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2013, 10:03:05 PM »
Got the Falcon vac-form canopy cut out and trimmed successfully this morning.......and breath......... :icon_meditation:

It's currently drying from a dip in Klear (Future). To avoid a repeat of my earlier cock-up, I've got an Eduard canopy mask, but it's for the Hobby Boss kit not the Hase one, so we'll see how interesting that is.

I'm also in the middle of correcting another mistake, which I believe is quite common. Wondering what colour 3" RPs were, I went looking on the web, found a nice black one in a museum, and promptly sprayed all 16 black. Then the other night, I found a discussion about these on another website, where one guy said "of course another mistake modellers often make is to paint them black...."

Wha?  :icon_surprised:

Loads of people objected to this, pointing him to the museum pics, but he patiently explained that the reason why 3" rockets in museums tend to be black is because they're the inert drill rounds that survived to end up in museums. The live rounds, that got fired and therefore didn't survive, were all bronze green. Turns out that he was an RAF armourer for 20 years too, so I guess he knows what he's talking about...

So I'm now painting the bodies bronze green, in-between the zero-point clips that I've already painted aluminium..... :icon_crap: (probably find out they were purple now....)

Warheads were olive green, but I found contemporary pics of some splendidly grotty RAF ones being loaded onto Hunters in Oman, so they're going to be olive/rust, the story being that they're from RAF stocks in the middle east...
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #69 on: August 27, 2013, 05:57:22 AM »
Down to the fiddly bits to the finish now.

Went to put the canopy on, and found that my pot of Clearfix was solid, so I tried another product called Glue'n'Glaze that I got at a model show:  indistinguishable from PVA basically. I thought it had screwed up horribly at first, but once it had half-dried, I was able to reposition the canopy and clean it up and it looks okay now.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Buzzbomb

  • Low Concentration Span, oft wanders betwixt projects
  • Accurate Scale representations of fictional stuff
    • Club and my stuff site
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #70 on: August 27, 2013, 07:25:42 AM »
Great job .. waiting now for the grand reveal

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2013, 09:52:33 AM »
Well it was going great....

I've had the model upside-down most of this evening, carefully scraping tiny amounts of paint off the undercarriage mounting points so that they'll stick. Got them all on, turned it right way up, and the canopy is full of swarf....... :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:

So tomorrow, I'm going to be prising the vac-form canopy off, cleaning it then re-fitting it then re-re-painting the sills.... :icon_crap:
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2013, 07:08:36 PM »
Okay, canopy off and cleaned up, undercarriage and dive brakes on and drying. Now needs:

Nav lights painting
Undercarriage/dive brakes touching up where paint's been scraped off to get a bond
Canopy back on and touched up
Tailplanes on and touched-up if neccessary
Coat of Klear to make all the touch-ups semi-gloss and protect the decals
Coat of Klear on the rocket bodies
Gun gas and rocket-exhaust "soot" marks
Rockets on

« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 07:10:32 PM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2013, 08:40:42 PM »
Some of that done, and now discovered a new problem ('cos there always HAS to be a new problem with this model... :icon_twisted:). Because it's moulded in dark blue plastic, the combination of that plus liquid glue forms an electric blue solution which then creeps into the surrounding paint, much of which just happens to be white or sky where it shows up really well..... :icon_crap:

So I've just re-painted large chunks of the undercarriage and doors, again, in situ, to cover over it, and will probably have to do the tailplane joints again when they're dry.

Think I'm going to have painted every bit of this thing five times over by the finish: there is nearly no panel lining left visible....
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #74 on: August 31, 2013, 09:38:47 PM »
This kit will be the one that finally puts you in an institution mate...
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.