Author Topic: Major Powers political shift  (Read 1112 times)

Offline Old Wombat

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Major Powers political shift
« on: September 27, 2020, 10:10:33 AM »
This idea has just floated through the void between my ears, possibly because of the number of Soviet/Russian aircraft being built around the place, & it's probably been proposed in the past but;

"What If the USA was torn apart by a Bolshevik revolution in 1918/1919 & became a communist nation & the Russian Empire, possibly as a constitutional monarchy or non-socialist republic, survived as a capitalist nation/empire?"

Ideas, anyone? ???
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 12:12:48 AM by Old Wombat »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Major Powers policical shift
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2020, 01:57:56 AM »
I suppose it would depend upon the question of how exactly one would see the countries developing under said scenario.  If the Socialist/communist USA did not turn into the perverted dictatorship the real world USSR did (anyone who thinks the USSR was anything else than a dictatorship and thinks that is what true Socialism is supposed to look like doesn't have a clue) you might see something interesting.  Likewise, just because a Russia was nominally non-socialist and nominally capitalist doesn't mean anything pretty either - Putin's Russia is arguably a non-socialist, capitalist country today but does anyone think it is anything other than a thinly veiled dictatorship?

I don't see where this scenario is supposed to go. ???
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Major Powers policical shift
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2020, 10:01:59 AM »
My personal preference included the Duma not being quite so ineffectual, forcing Tsar Nikolai II to abdicate (either in 1905 or in 1915) & instituting a constitutional monarchy with Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich (Nikolai's oldest surviving brother) being made Tsar.

There was quite a strong Communist element amongst the USA's intelligentsia at that time & amongst their trade unions, although that was somewhat mitigated by the various crime gangs. However, if the crime gangs had been effectively suppressed/eliminated (not easy by any means but possibly easier then than in/after the 1920s/30s) the Communist element may have come to the fore, or it may have come to the fore & been the suppressor/eliminator.

I hadn't really gone much beyond that.

And, Greg, which Communist state didn't at least start out as a dictatorship? ??? I can't think of any off the top of my head.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 10:03:31 AM by Old Wombat »
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
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Re: Major Powers policical shift
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2020, 10:16:21 AM »
In all honesty, it was the beginnings of a mind game without any RW impetus, just an idea to play around with where the world may have gone under this scenario.

You know, "What If ...?" ???
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
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Re: Major Powers policical shift
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2020, 10:12:56 PM »
Right, this whole thing was just in the hopes of kicking off a fun though experiment without delving into the how, just accepting that it is & working from that.


If I sound a bit grumpy, by the way, it's because I am. I'm also confused as to when the Hell the world decided that everything had to make historical sense when trying to have a bit of fun!

There was once a time when you could say "This is the scenario, let's play with it!" & people would say "Sure!" & have fun playing in that odd little world.

All-of-a-sudden that's not how it is, everyone has to know how, when & why this scenario came into being - even here in a haven for "What-If ...?".


Greg, if you don't mind, could you delete the whole thread ... It's not fun any more. :icon_crap: Belay this request! ;)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 12:06:50 AM by Old Wombat »
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Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
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Re: Major Powers policical shift
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2020, 12:05:20 AM »
Amazing what a little support (elsewhere) can do for a mood! :))

So, I'll try this again, only word it differently:

What If ...

Post-World War 1, the USA became a quasi-democratic Communist state (ie: only various factions of the Communist ideology being eligible to elected office), while Russia became a Westminster-based bicameral democratic constitutional monarchy, with Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich Romanov replacing his brother, Nikolai II, as Tsar ...

Discuss?
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
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Re: Major Powers policical shift
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2020, 12:06:11 AM »
First thing that strikes me, in relation to world civil & military aviation, is that Igor Ivanovich Sikorsky & Alexandr Nikolaievich Prokofiev de Seversky probably wouldn't have emigrated to the US, meaning that their aviation expertise & inventiveness would have remained in Russia.

Any ideas on who would try to/probably flee the USA to, say Canada, the UK or ... Russia? ???

Fairly sure Henry Ford would remain in the US, he was quite the supporter of the Leninist/Stalinist USSR in the RW.

Howard Hughes would certainly give it a try, & probably succeed.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Major Powers policical shift
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2020, 12:07:10 AM »
Instead of a Bolshevik revolution in the USA in 1918/1920, suppose we had something like Harry Turtledove's Joe Steele happening in the 1930's and beyond?

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Major Powers political shift
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2020, 06:22:22 PM »
Quote
(anyone who thinks the USSR was anything else than a dictatorship and thinks that is what true Socialism is supposed to look like doesn't have a clue)

Refreshing to know that someone else appriciates this!!

Interesting scenario Old Wombat!

Although a little later in terms of your timeline,
I not long ago read The Untold History of the United States by Oliver Stone and Peter Kuznick. It quoted Vice President Henry A. Wallace stating that both powers/ideologies (Capitalism and Communism) should be allowed to openly compete with one another (so without enacting Truman's 'Containment' policy.)
So, if Wallace's notion was used, then I'm thinking that countries/governments might swing to and from capitalism to communism visa versa.....and as GTX correctly states, there's a very big difference between communism and socialism, so the United States might not be as quick to brand every country that wanted independence from their colonial master - aka nationalism, as 'Communists' and as part of the fear toting 'Domino Effect'. Hence we probably wouldn't see as many of the atrocious CIA/MI5/KGB lead/sponsored/delivered Putsch/Coup Detat! Maybe we'd see more countries consolidating their natural resources for their own national benifits - namely thier own economies, without British, French, Dutch and American interventions underbrush guise of 'communism' threat, as opposed to the threat to British, French, Dutch and American corporate investment and profits.
I'm thinking in such an environment, we'd probably most likely see more Yugoslavia/Romania-types who were at ease using mixes of both Western and Eastern weapons systems/platforms because of their actual cost and capability vs political affiliation and sponsorship....
Maybe also as a consequence of such competitive arrangement, the likes of the atrocious political opertunistic engineered strategies like the Red Scare and Red Baiting makes better non belligerent societies of some countries.....

Just ideas mate.... 😉

MAD
« Last Edit: October 03, 2020, 06:55:25 AM by M.A.D »