Author Topic: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs  (Read 34416 times)

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2017, 09:55:21 AM »
I know politics (serious ones with disputes) are forbidden in this forum, and though the future has always been commanded by politicians/political history, more or less, and a word about it may be more funny (through ridiculous propaganda, even from a good side) than boring technical directions. Moderator, please delete this if it is “too much”, reaching status “unacceptable”.

In 1945-46, Europe had to choose between the 2 winners of WW2: Stalinist communism and Capitalist republic. A first project of the Marshall plan seems to have been based on military aviation:
“Europeans, you must decide, 2 possibilities for you to choose a FUTURE:
– Red army (like bloody agonizing soldier): most planes on the ground, to be repaired someday if ever, ½ hour of flight training per year, pilots’ wages: $1 per year (because “richness is guilty” repeats the severe political police crushing people everywhere), low octane fuel made from vegetables shared with the hungry angry population (“diet is good for your health” say the fat leaders to the slim humble commanded).
– US (like Ultra Special goodness): very powerful planes incrusted with huge natural diamonds (for stealth performance); 300 hours of flight training per year, pilots’ wages: $122,000 per year (to boost local economy, buying wine-&-beer/flowers-&-fur/toys-&-chewing-gum, …).”


A looooong time ago, in some English-speaking country (I don’t want to remember precisely which one) a candidate to presidency had a very special relation to women, that he treated as “just fucking bitches” (according to some journalists and opponents, unconfirmed). It seems he said to a friend: “in the future, if I am elected, the R[censored] races will be very much more sexy, vote for Me and you will see!”. Retro future is frightening sometimes, (sigh of relief – I am a puritan citizen).


In France, almost every election of president has its ecologist candidate. In 1981 (or 1988?) was published this view of the ecologic future in the sky (if voters decide so):
A/ very-solar plane;
B/ windy electrical plane (2 lateral propellers fed with battery, 1 central wind turbine generator to charge the battery; propellers’ airflow + relative wind ensure a very positive total, providing light and hot water to mechanics after flight, in addition to cooking hot-dog and French fries);
C/ piston engined plane using for fuel: agricultural ethanol (a.k.a. “French wine”).
It seems this was not the true future program of the candidate but a joke from a few minor opponents, pretending this ecology cannot be regarded as mentally sane.


In 1981, the new French president abolished legally the death penalty here, then he was very angry that polls demonstrated a strong disagreement of the population against this new law, people arguing that rapist murderers of children do not deserve jail well-balanced free workless food with TV entertainment. The government published immediately an article/answer to destroy such opposition: “If in 5 years, the other side comes back and declares ‘kill the killers’ again, this is not only a very stupid self-contradiction but this will require future new military airplanes. Hey you: flying soldier accomplishing your duty, if ever you dare killing one enemy (despite the new visibility, intentionally poor), you must suicide immediately, using the self-directed gun, or this will be for you hungry jail forever (with just one little piece of bread per month, worms included, drinking contaminated water taken from toilet waste), raped everyday by fellow prisoners, enjoy! If ever you truly want this ‘future Heaven’, that definition of ‘Humanity’, you will just have to vote in the right direction…”

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2017, 02:45:05 PM »
In 1943, American spies in Germany transmitted the discovery of the incredible He-111Z twin-fuselage 5-engined Heinkel… Immediately, the Big Boss of the USAAF concluded: “we will do the same and even better!” Busy with a fighter contract, he required North-American engineers to change their plans: “Hey! This is the future winner: P-51Z! That is a drawing of mine! Genius! Yes!”, but the engineers asked: “do you need a glider tug?”. The answer was No, so the engineers smiled and say “Sir, we respect your opinion and your dollars… while, uh… we may provide you with a different Twin-Mustang: a fighter…”. Then History went in another direction than the scheduled future of the Boss.


When the weird Heinkel He-119 appeared in public, with its minimum drag without wind-screen nor protruding pilot head, all observers of the World concluded: this is the new future in aircraft design! North American worked on that idea… but not much.


Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2017, 03:04:43 PM »
The SAAB Viggen introduced greatly the canard layout in standards for supersonic aircraft (more than the Mirage Milan, XB-70, Tu-144…) but Burt Rutan proved with his Vari-Eze that controlling such a machine is easy and reliable almost for everyone. He wrote: “the future of aircraft with propellers is also promised to canard domination!”, with a Mustang racer as illustration. Piaggio engineers contested that a little later: “the future belongs to 3-surface pusher aircraft”, with another Mustang racer project as proof (“the abnormal is going to become the first choice of every dersigner”).

Offline finsrin

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2017, 03:10:59 PM »
P-51Z gives me styrene visions !

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2017, 03:59:37 PM »
Thanks!

When the Flying Flea (Pou du Ciel) reached a tremendous success, in 1933-1935, with its highly staggered biplane wings (almost tandem wings), many observers judged “this is the layout of the future’s normal airplane”. And even the Mustang was considered that way, but secretly…

Offline AXOR

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2017, 04:54:45 PM »
Avan-stang is awesome and I like helicopter Mustang,great job Cristophe...you are very productive lately
Alex

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2017, 02:04:07 AM »
I like the Avan-Stang
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2017, 03:51:31 AM »
I really like the B-51U transport Tophe!

Your imagination is off the charts brilliant, mon ami!

Brian da Basher

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2017, 06:29:00 AM »
Thank you all!

you are very productive lately
This is because of holydays, that this subject made pleasant, thanks to the organizers!

The inventor René Leduc spent whole decades of his life shouting in vain “ramjet is the engine of the future!”. In 1953 at last, his Modèle 021 flew, with success and the prophesy seemed fulfilled (“it is no more a far future but immediate future, almost the new rule already!”). A twin-fuselage/twin-engined version of the 021 was designed, and it seems below that Lockheed tried to adapt its Lightning basis to this idea also. Alas, this future never came… or not yet.


When the Coléoptère flew in 1958 with its annular wing, almost all designers wondered: “Why haven’t we thought about this layout before? In the future, this shape will always be considered, not less than stupid (prehistoric) horizontal wings; this is at last properly human machines: like we replaced legs by wheels, we will replace horizontal wing by annular!”. That is why so many Airbus and Boeing airliners feature annular wings, no? Just Lockheed Lightning cancelled designs (of mine)? Oh, what a pity, I feel my mind falls down to prehistory again…


Piloting as a hobby became very common in the 1980s, with the hang microlight deltaplanes, and this seemed for sure the airplane of the future (not for supersonic speed but almost all the rest). And when happened the idea to build again old Mustangs, still very good for many jobs, the question was: old solid wings or future hang delta? You know the answer, I fear, destroying the wonderful future… (the related airplane could have been used perfectly by the US Navy, aboard carriers, its foldable tissue wing taking almost zero room on storage)…


You all know that the sailplanes/gliders needed to be tugged in the air by some airplane, which is uneasy, expensive, with boring delays (and safety issues for landing if drifted too far from airport). Fortunately was invented the motor glider, gliding freely after folding its take-off little engine inside the nose or elsewhere (the engine can be operated again for climbing a second time and enjoy, or for reaching the airport). This was so good, predictions said millions of copies will be manufactured in the future. Not yet, no more great success, but I can show you such a (cancelled) civilian Mustang:


At the end of the 1980s, when the Berlin wall fell down, then USSR itself (!), the future seems no more WW3 (or local wars with the same, like Korea/Vietnam) but peaceful actions only. “What will be the military airplane of the future?” has been the subject of a congress, with many people very afraid to lose $ billions. The conclusion said “send to garbage fighters, bombers, attack/strike/CoIn planes and helicopters, just will remain cargo work, to bring food and medicine to desperate people”. Mustang lovers cried “And what will we do?”, the answer being “let you invent new cargo Mustangs, or ambulances, these kinds of glorious missions without a kill”. The future result may more useful than beautiful…



Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2017, 10:57:08 AM »
Soviet experts say it for decades (at least since the 1960s): “the future of aviation is at very-low-altitude: WIG ekranoplans! (Westerners, come, join us, and respect our leadership there!)”. In the 1980s, this could have produced the Ek-82.


In 1963, the wingless prototype M2-F1 of the NASA made observers dream: no more wings on future aircraft? (like a wingless Twin-Mustang?) In fact, this was a misunderstanding, concerning not aircraft but future space shuttle.

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2017, 11:50:57 AM »
The Stipa Flying Barrel of 1932 was not beautiful but as it was pretended to embody the future of aviation (which is true: it was the ancestor of the jetplane), so the Mustang should have been designed this way…

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2017, 12:45:48 PM »
After WW2, the future of escort fighters was clearly parasite aircraft. "No matter which is chosen (Goblin or Gobstang), anyway this is the future for sure".


Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2017, 01:07:23 PM »
Since 1968 the future of seaplanes is hydrofoils ! (no more floats, no more hulls) but almost nothing came from this announcement (and little testing), it seems. The drawing below is very imperfect, that is maybe the reason why the prototype never took off.


Offline AXOR

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2017, 06:07:47 PM »
Woooow I'm quite envious,I lost my mojo for some time.
Great job Cristophe,keep them coming !
Alex

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2017, 06:19:07 PM »
Thanks!

In 1956, a very cold winter made everybody wonder: will the future be a new glacial era? Wheels of airplanes would be replaced by skis, everywhere in this forthcoming future, not only in Canada/Scandinavia/Siberia but as well in Senegal/Borneo/Amazonia.


Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2017, 08:11:12 PM »
Of course, we know that the present 2010s are the years of nano-technologies (very very little), but remember: in the 1990s this was the time of micro-technologies (very little), and in the 1970s: mini-technologies (little). Even in those 1970s, the words were the same: “at mini-scale, processes are more efficient, with less loss of power: instead of 1 time 10, you could take 8 times 1 (no need of 10 times 1), this is the progress, future is coming!” But while electronics and computer jumped in the first line for that revolution, application to aircraft remained rare, at last.


Somebody told me (I don’t know if this is true) that the principles of winglets and ducted propellers have been discovered a long time ago, early in the 20th century, but the ones saying this is the future of aviation were regarded as lunatics. However, such “future” principles could have been applied in the 1940s.


Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2017, 08:15:45 PM »
Ups, I forgot (to say?) one detail: if you asks me "what holds the duct on the P-51DuP?", I answer: no need of physical support, this is probably magnetic, this is the future! ;)

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2017, 05:51:06 AM »
The Me-163 Komet was so much better than all existing Allied interceptors, the USAAF wanted 100 copies of Me-163 immediately to defend New York. But, ahem, the enemy would refuse to sell a weapon to be used against itself, so an US version of the Komet was clearly the required future in America. This could have been the P-51Me Comet Mustang, without paying Copyright because war is war…


Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2017, 10:48:39 AM »
In late 1945: “With no more war, will we still buy fighters-bombers? Yes, the future seemed clear and heroic differently, peacefully: fighting flames with water bombers (at least in our French Southern forests, burning year after year, each summer with dryness and wind)”… The color is for French old tradition of firemen, before the actual creation of flying firemen, painted yellow. In 1978, these designs came back to life, not carrying heavy water but light hydrogen gas, the new fuel of the future, good against pollution (“good for the planet”) but requiring huge volumes.

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2017, 10:58:47 AM »
Correction: this was not hydrogen gas like an old airship but liquid hydrogen (cold & pressurized).
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 06:58:22 PM by Tophe »

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2017, 06:58:47 PM »
In the early 1940s, when appeared in full service the weird P-39 Airacobra, and its surprising car door, many pilots expressed the same opinion: “I wish this door is the future in aviation, not only for flyable cars but also trainers and all, for pilots’ comfortable installation at the commands; this is not a detail for us!”. Alas for them, this remained rare.
 

Many times in aviation, with Eng. Dunne, Horten, Northrop and their counterparts in USSR, voices claimed “future aircraft will be at 100% flying wings, no need of tail!”. Well, now such B-2 and a few others are produced but this remains a minority. After the XP-56 project selection, for instance, the future could have been a mass-production of 25,000 P-51FW, winning the war… All aviation would have been transformed.


I have seen weird pictures of future aircraft-submarine compounds (I think they were designed in the 1940s in USSR and in the 1970s in USA). This could have been built and flown, with failure or success.


It is famous that since the Civil War of ships in the USA, the technologic military race has 2 sides: shoot efficiently/protect efficiently. Every program of fighters had to face such a future: more firing power (but less performance)? And/or more protection (but less performance)?


Offline AXOR

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2017, 10:17:24 PM »
Yes,P-51 SM is fantastic !
Alex

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2017, 10:27:03 PM »
Thanks!

In 1930, a French engineer (Charles De Rougé) patented the T-tail, so much better than classical it must be the immediate future of all aviation worldwide in the 1930s! The future T-tail P-38 of 1939 were imagined but never came to life (later, after expiration of the legal patent, the T-tail layout became common but the time had turned to jetplanes, like Javelin in the 1950s and Boeing 727 in the 1960s).


Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2017, 10:55:03 PM »
Hey, Tophe... Does that Pr-51 indicates that resistance is futile?  ;D
... and kill me again
or take me as I am,
for I shall not change...
never...

Offline AXOR

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2017, 11:51:07 PM »
Hey, Tophe... Does that Pr-51 indicates that resistance is futile?  ;D
That was my first thought too  ;D
Alex