Author Topic: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs  (Read 21466 times)

Offline Tophe

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Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« on: August 02, 2017, 07:46:22 PM »
As usual, I plan to participate transforming my vector drawings of P-38 and P-51.
But... I already used most of my creativity in a recent topic (of the other site, "Science Fiction GB") "Future engines warbirds" imagining the future mysterious engines of 1946 on Lightnings and Mustangs. But I think I will find ideas anyway. :smiley:

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2017, 08:47:31 PM »
In 1941, the future seemed clear: WW2 will make the Middle East petroleum explode, and German submarines will destroy any tanker in the Atlantic, so the RAF must use the coal of the homeland as power for its airplanes (via water steam). Fortunately, a new invention (to be finalised) will make the fume invisible, to prevent visual detection of the planes.
COA-38A, B, C:

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2017, 09:59:09 PM »
Great start Tophe  :smiley:
"They know you can do anything, So the question is, what don't you do?"

-David Fincher

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2017, 06:44:51 PM »
Thanks!

And in 1975, for France refusing to pay the new price of fuel but preferring nuclear power, were considered airplanes with nuclear turboprop and cooling towers (producing just cloud no smoke).
U-238A, B, C:

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2017, 09:10:40 AM »
In 1952, Lockheed announced a future « missile with a man in it, “Starfighter” », and it was not easy to illustrate such a future from just these words. The magazine Aviation Future 1980 tried anyway, and here are its 3 possibilities of “Future Starfighter projects of 1952” (F-138, F-238, F-338), inspired by the F-38 Lightning, most famous military product of Lockheed at that time. When the future became now (Starfighter rollout, XF-104), none happened to be true or even close…

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2017, 12:02:01 PM »
The XF-86 Sabre was announced as "like a Mustang with a jet", and this was enough for "informed" journalists to publish an illustration. As "WF-86", it remains forever "not proven wrong, who knows?"

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2017, 01:33:20 PM »
Quote from "The future belongs to us", factory journal of Kansas City factory: "With absolute certainty*, we can certify that the XF-186 will be built then the F-186s will be mass-produced here, scale 1 yes!". And at the bottom of the page, in tiny letters: "*: if the related $ millions are confirmed available". 

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2017, 02:44:03 PM »
The words "F-286s will complete the family" were optimistic, "would" is often better.

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2017, 06:56:11 PM »
When in 1939 was signed the German–Soviet Non-aggression Pact, the foreseen future for the decade 1940-1950 was clearly worldwide Peace. A prospective technology article was written about related aircraft by the leading engineers of the friendly companies Lockheed-Burnelli-Blohm&Voss (“LoBuBv”). They predicted the disappearance of military aircraft in 1942 (war being declared illegal in 1941), and a sky all full of airliners, featuring twin-booms, lifting fuselage, asymmetry. Is “Prediction” a synonym of “Truth”? Probability calculations were so demonstrative, the answer must be Yes, scientifically!
The illustrated projects below are coded LoBuBv-38, -41, -141.

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2017, 02:26:01 PM »
XHaP-38, YHaP-38, HaP-38A : after the first Harry Potter book (1997, 20 years ago) success, a teenage magazine presented the future interceptor of the USAF, replacing military devices by a magic wand, nonlethal, transforming evil weapons of the enemy into smelly cheese (for the indisposed aviators to bail out, not at all to throw on poor US civilians – like, before, Charlie Chaplin won the trench gas war with French Camembert). Maybe this is not exactly “retro future” as not considered seriously as “what the future will be”, but several 13-year-old naive readers took it as very serious (because industrial), hopeful for the true future…

« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 02:29:43 PM by Tophe »

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2017, 03:00:54 PM »
In 1975 when MicroTurbo started to reach success, a commentator said “in the future, aircraft with wings will be called ‘prehistoric aircraft’, the modern active lift being so much better than the old device, that even ignored the VTOL ability!”.
MT-38A, Z, B:

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2017, 04:51:12 PM »
In 1938, after the Fokker G.1 success in Paris AirShow then Lockheed P-38 victory in USAAF contract, an article was published “Boom-Boom! : in tomorrow’s Aviation, is single fuselage doomed?” (with drawings of the probable P-38 derivative winners).

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2017, 05:14:23 PM »
While these are all great P-38 permutations, I especially like the tri-motor version!

If it had Italian markings, I bet you could fool some into thinking it was real!

Great stuff, Tophe!

Brian da Basher

Offline AXOR

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2017, 07:18:08 PM »
I especially like the tri-motor version!

Yeah,me too.
Great job all around  :smiley:
Alex

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2017, 03:21:29 PM »
Thanks !

You know, it's possible that sleek, aerodynamic spats could be a crucial element to this GB...

In 2000, our BdB was considered to be nominated “Master of the World” by the United Nations (in his previous life, before coming here as our dear Aerospace Models moderator), so – knowing his acute love for spats (and knowing the related UN $ zillions) – what would have been the future? As far as my factory is concerned, we would have developed then mass-produced this airplane:

(the memory drawing here is dated 2017, the source blueprints having been destroyed in 2001 – if this is not a joke)

The X-3 Stiletto experimental seemed to invent the thin micro-wing, and this was mass-produced with huge success on the F-104 Starfighter. Reasonably, at this beginning of the 1950s, this was the future of aviation, so the Mustang racers were ready to be transformed as well (becoming supersonic?!):


In 1944, the rocket-engined Me-163 has been a revolution in the sky, with its tremendous speed and climb rate, but… its tiny range made it “very special, for point defense”. However the related RATO technology was clearly seen as the future for sure (Rocket Assisted Take Off): rockets to get airborne and climb with the full amount of fuel for range, then pistons for cruise and the rest. Such Lightnings would have been:


A word of wisdom… (let it be…) The future is not mainly “what can be done” but “what should be done”.
For instance, we can fly supersonic and even hypersonic but the Concorde, dangerous, has been sent to garbage: no matter if military pilots are all kamikaze, for passenger flights the best is safety, not speed (if the travel takes time, no problem, watch movies aboard! Prefer the fun of Hollywood than the horror of Death!). In 2005 was considered the inflight collision of two A-380, with 1,800 casualties, and the International Board said “no more, now the future will be airships only (helium modern new ones), slowly but safely”… Maybe this has not been confirmed yet in 2017, but dreamers of 2005 were ready for it:


1968 was the year of Woodstock pop show, with a mass travel to Katmandu, enlightened by dreams and marij… I mean: fantasy. Future of aviation was one of the subject discussed there, not sadly but many directions were clearly foreseen, based on electric guitars, pink elephants and flower power… I heard the question “what will be the engine of them??!” and the answer is close to “Lucy in the Sky with Diamond”, but more precisely: “Liberty is So Delicious”. What? Where is the hospital? Physical one is next door! Psychiatric one is right here! Don’t move!


Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2017, 04:14:06 PM »
My what lovely spats (and airships and colorful animals!) you have there mon ami!

 :-* :-* :-*

Great stuff and yet more proof that your imagination is truly limitless!

Brian da Basher
(master of only a very tiny cottage)

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2017, 11:42:32 AM »
Thanks! About cottage… do you know Mickey Newbury’s “Swiss Cottage Place”, one of my favorite songs ever…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ4HVBkhQFc
(tear jerking for me, like many ones from this romantic genius singer)… But back to aviation retro futurism:

When the Fokker/VFW-614 was tested with success in 1971, it was so much better than competitors that such a layout (jet engines above a low wing) was concluded as being VERY certainly the future of commercial aviation: 1/ no need of big & fragile landing gear for low jet ground clearance, 2/ possibility of comfortable & cheap little stairs to climb into the airplane (without the problems of a high wing: narrow & unsafe landing gear from the fuselage or fragile & heavy from the high wing)…  It was anticipated that Lockheed may propose such an airliner, with maybe no need to pay copyright to Fokker if designed as something like the ALIN-38, derivative of their Psh-38X (from the previous marine Psh-38W). No? We are now in 2017 and… isn’t it what happened? Uh, but hell: why???


In 1907, a journalist asked the Wright Brothers if, in the future, with increased speed and aerodynamic needs, the canopy of airplanes will be closed. The brother engineers laughed: “Do you want to kill the pilot?!” and “Look! A human pilot needs air, impossible to breath in a goldfish glass box or bubble!”. The journalist apologized for his stupidity, sorry, and his article depicted the fast airplane of the far future (like… say: 1950! or even 2000!), that he called “Mustang” like a wild horse (not a bird at all!), but still a breathing animal, of course, no “bubble” submarine! This wise anticipation deserves a reward, for sure.


In the 1950s, the future of aviation was very surely VTOL everywhere especially for military airplanes (all runways being destroyed in the first seconds of a modern war). The TSP-51 was such a TailSitting P-51 (with no relation to the French magazines’ TSP, meaning “Tournez la page S’il vous Plait” = please turn the page to the next one). Illustrated in the (1st) April 1953 article of Willy Sheikspeer “Future aircraft: to be VTOL or not to be?!”…


In 1948, the Roswell incident changed completely the future of aviation, military side: “no need anymore to prepare a childish fight between capitalist and communist cousins, a Total War is going to oppose human beings and Aliens from another planet or galaxy! Our technology is very poor and we will immediately try to copy their evil way, so efficient alas… 1,697,957,233 human casualties are announced (not yet official, greatly increasing at each second, according to our sources)…” Years later, it seems it was not the immediate future but a TV joke, celebrating the anniversary of Wells’ radio fake reports.


After the WTC drama in 2001, civilian aviation was strongly accused and it will never be the same again, as explained in a detailed illustrated note: “Civilian pilots will be controlled severely:
- In its design, every aircraft (including racers) will have to feature 6 firing turrets with explosive bullets pointed towards the pilot, these turrets being remotely controlled by legal authorities (in the name of the president).
- If a turret is switched off by a mechanic, it will automatically explode destroying all (and everyone) around, without a single warning.
- The goal is to decrease by 99.99% the number of candidates to become pilots.
- The remaining “candidates”, very suspect of terrorism, will be sent to Guantanamo lawless place/jail for complementary interview (possibly violent, but less than 15% killed estimated, except special cases involving national Security).
The future starts NOW!” […not yet started in 2017…]


In 1971, the future of US military aircraft changed completely: no more fantastic dreams of a Huge World War 3 with USSR at Mach 3+ in the stratosphere but the main word became Vietnamization (at very low “altitude”), the armies of the US wanting to go back home (and not directly in the graveyard). A cartoonist replaced the proud Stetson (a-la-John Wayne) by a rice field hat (against local sun & violent rain)…


In the 1980s, President Ronald Reagan declared the Space Army technologic war, and aircraft within the clouds and turbulence seemed just an old memory anymore. “The future will be fighter spacecraft, for sure!” (he said). He was partly wrong for that part but when he said “this will defeat USSR”, he was right, financially…


In 1981, just before I turned 18 y.o., France elected a social-communist government, that was followed by many dances of joy in the streets: “we will not make war to USSR anymore (remember the scheduled mass murdering of cities here and there), we are friends with everybody now. Our monstrous Mirage supersonic atomic bombers-killers will be replaced by gentle unarmed agricultural biplanes for our flying lieutenants and captains. Yes we will buy them in the friendly USA: antique (= precious) P-51D & B modified with 80hp engines and 2-blade wood propellers (together with similar MiG-3 pretty biplanes in USSR). They will be developed especially for us! Paix-51, pronounced for us like P-51 means Peace-51! Yes, in a World of Peace, this is our future!” There were many clapping hands… idealistic? In fact alas, things went differently and a quick national bankruptcy/devaluation prevented any airplane change. Ahem.


In the early 1940s, most of the attention was focused on the tragic war alas, but an unclassifiable article depicted a very different future for aviation: “seaplanes and runways are doomed, we will jump in the sky!” (with landing that uses parachutes). No echo was encountered and History was not interested (alas?), except for drones (but paying no copyright to the article’s author).


In the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, I have always read prospective articles saying “airliners of the future will have no more fuselage: for sure they will be flying wings…”. OK but when? In the year 3000? who cares? I have looked in the archives and it was already told in the 1940s, with the W-82AL as illustration:


Long before the stealth fashion in aero design of the 1980s (and top-secretly before with the SR-71?), there were the 1910s transparent airplanes (almost invisible?), it is now well known. But in the meantime: in the 1940s, there was also the wooden Mosquito with no radar signature, and also a weird prediction: “aircraft of the future will be impossible to detect, even visually!”. The illustration below (“the cloud-carrying fighter”) was given either as futuristic or daydreaming fantasy, I don’t know.


With the radar technological race of the early 1940s, the electronic industry changed completely the aviation world, no more reserved to pilot aristocrats. As soon as January 1941, North American announced that – before the end of this year – future Mustangs in service (both fighter P-51U and bomber B-51U, U for unmanned) will be remotely controlled only. The date was wrong, but 70 years later this is becoming true (with other models, of course).


When appeared the twin-boom PZL Belphegor, many Western observers laughed loudly: “What?!! A jet biplane??! Stupid!! Hey, go back to school!”. No, gentlemen, sorry, PZL engineers wrote an article in the scientific Nr 1 revue “Science”, explaining that the change from biplane to monoplane has been a tremendous fault of the 1930s. “Airplanes of the future will be multiplanes again!”, and there were lots of mathematical proofs with equations and diagrams. And they were very right, knowing at last (today, in 2023) that the new Reno race, Unlimited, has been won by the Mustang triplane (of Chris Miller Jr):


In 1945 with the end of the war, and many many surplus machines, airplane industries had trouble to sell their products. One idea was to start a new race (like in 1926-27 for crossing the Atlantic), and in 1946, this great race goal was crossing the Pacific Ocean against the winds, San Francisco to Tokyo (not Alaska to Siberia, easy…) without stop (in Midway) nor air-refueling. This seemed impossible but made design bureaus work hard. Then, an unknown man (P.Mustangopoulos, US-citizen of Greek ascent) wrote a surprising article concerning this Pacific air crossing : “The winner, in a close future, will be the one pleasing Gods!”. Presenting a triple-fuselage tandem wing Mustang, “because” the God of the Ocean (Poseidon/Neptune) always wins (fishing?) with such a triple-forked trident and will bless only such an attempt glorifying Himself... (No money was found for building it).


Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2017, 02:57:00 PM »
According to US reporters of 1943 (and Historians of early 1944), the P-38s that killed General Yamamoto (the one wanting a negotiated peace) and its undefended plane reached glory, and made everyone in the US wanting to continue this war. But it was very different in Japan. The Generals Council in Tokyo decided a plan called “CHANGING THE FUTURE”: 1/ Japan will make its own P-38 replacing local failures; 2/ Assassination will be the principle all right. Then the Laitero (or LightHero) J9M (Ki-999) prototype was born, and mass-produced with tandem wings for range. A single one, painted black, dropped the Japanese atomic bomb on Los Angeles the night of December 25th 1944, that killed 1.13 million people, and both President Roosevelt and General Mac Arthur died that very day (both from a heart attack). The rest is well known: the US Congress surrendered and gave to Japan 1/ the Philippines back 2/ Hawaii 3/ Australia and Great-Britain, Germany then taking Europe and Africa, India, crushing USSR (and China together with Japan). Yes, the announced future had changed… (this is written today in the year 2324, from an old Japanese source, author “Manga2017” apparently, historicity of the content: to be confirmed).

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2017, 07:50:39 PM »
I have found a surprising article, about the first human landing on the moon, “next year”, but published in 1943… The intended pilot would be Captain Frankie Rouzvelth, USAAF, and the US government encouraged donations for it, it seems.

Offline jcf

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2017, 05:51:21 AM »
Those are all cool Tophe.  :smiley:

One of the big themes in US advertising during WWII for 'what's coming after the war'
was an 'airplane or autogiro or helicopter' in every driveway,I think any one of those
could be derived from your Mustang and Lightning.
 ;D
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
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Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2017, 09:24:27 AM »
Thanks jcf, I will try to make something in this direction you mentioned.

I remember in the 1970s, the future was clearly STOL aircraft: “No need anymore of huge runways (easy to destroy for military, far from downtown for civilian), no need of VTOL performance penalty (requiring a huge power at the expense of range and load), Short Take Off and Landing is the final perfection in aviation! This is logics applied to Take-Off: horizontal was bad, vertical was bad, oblique is of course the best! The future will say which way will win (vectored jet, tilting wing, tilting engines, flaps blowing and maybe with several small engines) but for sure: non-STOL planes are doomed!” (Ahem… in 2005-2015 for the huge Airbus A380, longer runways have entered service, instead…).

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2017, 02:05:14 PM »
One of the big themes in US advertising during WWII for 'what's coming after the war'
was an 'airplane or autogiro or helicopter' in every driveway,I think any one of those
could be derived from your Mustang and Lightning.

Yes, thanks jcf: “Future 1943: after the war, there will be many surplus aircraft available, cheap! If you have to drive in New York then in Chicago, no need to have 2 cars: attach your car to a plane and fly it to the other city! Detach it and here you are!”


And even better: “Future 1944: after the war, flyable new cars will be available! If there is traffic, stop, spread your wings and fly over!”.


Offline jcf

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2017, 02:53:07 PM »
 :smiley:  :smiley:  :smiley:  :icon_fsm:

Wunderbar.  ;)
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2017, 03:51:00 PM »
New Year 1955 speech at the North Am factory: “Now ladies and gentlemen, let us be serious one moment please. A little child asked me ‘Sir, what is the future of aviation?’ and we all know the answer, all of us: SST of course! SuperSonic Transport! Mach 1.1 and beyond! And I mean thousands of North Am supersonic airliners in our sky, like we are now producing supersonic Supersabre for the army! This is an evidence without any possible objection, all right?! Cheers!”

Offline Tophe

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Re: Retrofuture Lightnings & Mustangs
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2017, 08:42:40 PM »
Lockheed directive for its commercials, 1955: “our competitor, the North Am SST, is a prehistoric design that will not work: the future in aviation is completely different, now everyone serious must switch to the AREA RULED supersonic flight, especially for commercial passengers (requiring safety!). We did that years ago and are almost ready to sell it! And remember that Lockheed owns the unique experience of the P-38 Lightning family, with over 38,000 multifuselage copies, this new step of us is THE future. All the world knows the truth, now and forever. Even poor African countries asked the price for second hand copies of our AR-38A (not yet available, wait just a little for the future to come).”


One of the big themes in US advertising during WWII for 'what's coming after the war'
was an 'airplane or autogiro or helicopter' in every driveway,I think any one of those
could be derived from your Mustang and Lightning.

Thanks again jcf! (I add now autogyro and helicopter future ways 1945, not easily, and staying single-seat like Mustang not a sedan automobile alas…)


Internal note at the USAAF HeadQuarters, 1942: “Now the future seems very clear, STRATOSPHERIC FLIGHT is the key of future warfare! And in such a thin air we need huge span and pressurized solid cockpit.” (note 2017: it seems this is the unknown source of the bubble-top P-51D)


After the failure of radar countermeasures, in Europe 1944, it was decided that, in some future (but as soon as possible), all Allied aircraft must fly at very very low altitude (below 100ft) and have minimum height (reduced fin), no propeller.


In the early 1940s, it seems the British generals refused to admit the failure of their Roc fighters, repeating “The future still belongs to turret fighters! If you want us to buy something, you will have to make a turret version of it! And a very good one!”