Author Topic: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38  (Read 18837 times)

Offline Tophe

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Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« on: August 08, 2014, 12:30:07 AM »
I thought I would not participate in this group, as WW1 is before aerodynamism that I like (related to high speed).
Though, in my archives, I found the Lockheed P-38 forefather, dated 1918: the Loughhead L-38...
I swear it is 100% true (in my mind, at least)

Online ChernayaAkula

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2014, 01:03:54 AM »
That looks cool!  :D
Cheers,
Moritz

"The appropriate response to reality is to go insane!"

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2014, 02:38:57 AM »
Thanks!
Well, in fact the proposal was a triple one: standard L-38; high-speed (reduced span) L-38B, high-maneuverability (triplane) L-38C.
Here are the L-38B and L-38C:

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2014, 02:51:18 AM »
 :)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2014, 06:24:50 AM »
If it is not true, it should have been, mon ami!

I really like how you changed the engines just a little to "un-modernize" them.

Someone should build this. Seriously!

Brian da Basher

Offline raafif

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2014, 09:12:24 AM »
 :)  the bi-plane looks better than the tripes - engines look like Franklin (or Lycoming) horiz-opposed types. Spats could do with v-struts to the center fuselage pod.

Will a COW-gun be fitted ??

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2014, 11:00:25 AM »
Thanks for the struts-to-pod suggestion! :) more solid this way
(With my time machine, I went back in 1918 and corrected the designs:)

But there will be no gun ever, sorry: I am a naive pacifist and these are just observation unarmed aircraft.

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2014, 11:45:40 PM »
these are just observation unarmed aircraft.

Of course, in 1918 there was not much automatism so the pilot could hardly be observer at the same time, thus two-seat versions L-38A2, L-38B2, L-38C2:

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2014, 11:53:06 PM »
That's awesome Tophe!
:)

Alvis 3.1

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2014, 12:04:29 AM »
Thanks Alvis 3.1415929... (by the way, do you know that 355/113 is pi, almost?)

Well, as I remember, the second crew member was mostly for gun operation on WW1 aircraft (camera was already available for observation), while my L-38s have no gun at all, even for defensive care... so a VERY high speed was needed, to escape from hostile fighters, and that gave the very powerful L-38D4:

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2014, 12:52:34 AM »
That is super clever and creative!! Begs to be built!  :-*
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Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2014, 02:03:30 AM »
Thanks a lot!

Well, this is not the end of this Loughead WW1 tale: after the L-38D4 was designed the similar L-38E4 (but this one had almost no relation to my dear P-38, alas):

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2014, 02:34:12 AM »
My what lovely spats you have there!
 :-* :-* :-*
The absolute last word in aerodynamics!

Mon ami, this to me confirms without a doubt that you are a genius.

I will be giving these pictures a very close look...
 :-* :-* :-*
Brian da Basher

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2014, 08:23:45 AM »
Thanks a lot, Brian!

I will be giving these pictures a very close look...
Feel free to contest/suggest improvements/corrections, this will still enrich the collection...

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2014, 09:01:22 AM »
Of course, Brian, "removing spats" would not be an "improvement" for you (but accute "heresy"), so I try this change by myself, into the marine version L-38E4F, and this one brings me back to the P-38 family, with its lateral booms (which is curing the non-twin-boom "heresy" on my own side)...:

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2014, 10:01:23 AM »
No, no floats replacing spats, this is too much inside heresy, stop, I apologize. I beg your pardon, moderator...

But the Loughead design bureau faced another problem, in early 1918: the general had sighed "hey, you crazy lunatics, I don't want a 4-engined observer, nor even a twin-engined observer, the requirement is for a SINGLE-ENGINED observer!". My grand-grand-father (the rich of the family, that has gone to America) smiled: "yes, the L-38 can do it, almost unchanged! With maybe a little asymmetry, while the German Gotha succeeded last year in this field with their Go.VI, and we, American engineers, are even better! Proudly!"... My grand-grand-father died in a psychiatric asylum (like me), I don't know why. I like these designs (stamped July 4th 1918), especially the 2½-plane...

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2014, 01:45:06 PM »
Of course, in case there was a heavy engine and light pilot, the L-38C1 could have been mounted opposite, the third little wing providing lift where best needed:

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2014, 04:14:49 AM »
It's interesting to me how that third little wing somehow adds balance.

You have an artist's eye, mon ami!

Brian da Basher

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2014, 12:25:03 AM »
Thanks! while the pilots, generals and troops did prefer an engineer than an artist, as designer... ;)

Now, knowing the engines of that time were not big, there was room behind for a pilot or observer, thus the L-38F1 & F2:

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2014, 12:51:52 AM »
There were not only artists working in the Loughead design bureau, but aso kids... The young funny little Vincent proposed the silly idea of a lifting fuselage! Everyone laughed a lot, of course, and the L-38G was designed this way as a joke, an entertainment. Years later, the little Vincent, grown adult, became famous, his last name was Burnelli...



Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2014, 01:29:20 AM »
No, no, the tale above is not true at all! In 1918, Vincent Burnelli was not a kid but a young man, aged 23... And the Burnelli-Loughead L-38G (above), L-38G1 and L-38G2 (below) were "serious designs", even if they failed to get orders:

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2014, 02:39:24 AM »
I really like the version with the Burnelli fuselage, mon ami!

It's always a treat to see what direction your ideas take!

Brian da Basher

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2014, 12:17:46 PM »
Thanks a lot, Brian!

Well, let us be serious now. I think I should mention the Long-Range observers LR-38A and B, dated 1918 but November (probably before the peace on Nov.11th but I am not 100% sure...). One was a different triplane, and the other was a quadriplane (with tandem sets of wings). I am not sure if such designs were ever tried somewhere else, apart of the CAproni Noviplano with 9 wings.

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2014, 10:41:57 PM »
Ups, I forgot the 4th wheel/spat, sorry... (that was not playing with dangerous asymmetry, here, just a copy-paste I forgot):

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2014, 12:39:22 AM »
The Loughead-Dunne L-38H2 & L-38H1 were flying wings, still in 1918: