Author Topic: 'might have beens' ... Australia  (Read 10976 times)

Offline tsrjoe

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'might have beens' ... Australia
« on: September 05, 2013, 01:37:51 AM »
ok here goes for starters ... please note those listed below are not in any particular order or time frame but were all SERIOUS evaluations for which there is SUPPORTING references  :)

Lockheed F.104A/C Starfighter, RAAF., 1958

BAC. Jet Provost 5, RAAF., 1965

NA. RA.5C Vigilante, RAAF., 1962 (favoured)
Vickers Valiant,  RAAF., 1963
Boeing R/B.47E Stratofort, RAAF., 1963
BAC. TSR.2 Eagle, RAAF, 1963
Convair B.58A Hustler, RAAF., 1961
Dassault Mirage IVO, RAAF., 1963

SAAB. AJ/JA.37 Viggen, RAAF., 1972
Dassault Mirage F.1, RAAF., 1972

Grumman F.14B Tomcat, RAAF, 1975 (favoured)
MDD. F.15A Eagle, RAAF, 1975

MDD. AV.8B, RAN. (A.4 replacement)

another type looked at  and assessed as a 'poc.' by the RAE. was the CAC. CA.23, Australias answer to the Lightning ... unfortunately this design did in no way bear up under scruitiny even tho being powred by the same Avon powerplant as the P.1B, it being just barely supersonic due to a number of major design faults!

... i will keep scanning through the references and add to this post when i come across any others... please feel free to augment the listing if you find any iv missed !
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 01:19:42 AM by tsrjoe »

Offline upnorth

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2013, 01:27:07 PM »
I always thought the Mirage IV would look great in RAAF markings, the ARDU "Fanta Can" scheme would look particularly fetching on it.
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2013, 02:56:39 PM »
I wasn't aware the F-14 was favoured in the initial Mirage replacement competition...

Offline Volkodav

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2013, 04:55:47 PM »
I heard it mentioned as an option bbut never the B and never as the preferred option.  I imagine the A could have been a contender do to commonalities with the F-111, unless of course the idea with the B would be to subsequently retro fit the F-111 with the same engine.

One I have heard before was a mix of F-15s and Harriers with the Harriers also serving as a replacement for the Skyhawks as well as being the replacement for the Mirages light attack capability.

Interestingly I also heard the a buy of 100 Jaguars was seen as likely at one point

Offline upnorth

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2013, 07:50:36 PM »
On the matter of A-4 replacements, was the A-7 Corsair II ever considered for purchase by Australia?
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2013, 08:07:01 PM »
On the matter of A-4 replacements, was the A-7 Corsair II ever considered for purchase by Australia?

Would an A-7 fit on a Majestic?  Then again Melbourne was due for replacement but what was available affordable and could operate A-7s that could have replaced her?

That said I have posted somewhere (cant remember whether here or another site) that a mix of A-7s and F-8s would have been an interesting option for Australia during the mid 60s through to the early 90s.  The idea was the RAN replaces Melbourne and Sydney with either one or a pair of Essex, UK carriers (Implacable and Indefatigable?), or Clemenceaus while selecting a common airframe(s) to cover the Fighter and attack roles for the FAA and RAAF.

The idea is no Mirage, Phantom, F-111, Skyhawk or F/A-18 and a large ongoing local manufacture of F-8 and A-7 over two decades.  Upgraded and improved versions of both supplementing / replacing earlier models through the life of the types.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2013, 04:54:03 AM »
Lots of fuel for the  Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda GB!  There is still time folks!!!
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Offline Weaver

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2013, 10:44:04 AM »
UK carriers (Implacable and Indefatigable?), or Clemenceaus while selecting a common airframe(s) to cover the Fighter and attack roles for the FAA and RAAF.

Implacable and Indefatigable were both scrapped before 1960 due to the cost of rebuilding their double-level 14' high hangars to take bigger aircraft. The original plan was to rebuild them, but the horrendous cost-escalation on Victorious's theoretically simpler rebuild put paid to that. Victorious would have been a good candidate for what you propose. The shipyard fire that resulted in her scrapping was a trival excuse to get rid of her and she could easily have been put into service in about 1968/69. Aircraft-wise, she could take Buccaneers, so Crusaders and Corsairs shouldn't have been a problem.

A pair of new-build Clemenceaus would probably be a good option, particularly if one or both could be built in Australia. They had to use F-8E(FN)s which were modified for lower landing speeds relative to the standard Crusader (blown wing and modified slats/flaps/tailplanes), but as far as I know, there was no down-side to these mods. Presumably a similar system could have been applied to the A-7, and if you bought Spey/TF-41 engined ones, we know from the Buccaneer that the Spey was good for BLC.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2013, 01:44:57 PM »
UK carriers (Implacable and Indefatigable?), or Clemenceaus while selecting a common airframe(s) to cover the Fighter and attack roles for the FAA and RAAF.

Implacable and Indefatigable were both scrapped before 1960 due to the cost of rebuilding their double-level 14' high hangars to take bigger aircraft. The original plan was to rebuild them, but the horrendous cost-escalation on Victorious's theoretically simpler rebuild put paid to that. Victorious would have been a good candidate for what you propose. The shipyard fire that resulted in her scrapping was a trival excuse to get rid of her and she could easily have been put into service in about 1968/69. Aircraft-wise, she could take Buccaneers, so Crusaders and Corsairs shouldn't have been a problem.

A pair of new-build Clemenceaus would probably be a good option, particularly if one or both could be built in Australia. They had to use F-8E(FN)s which were modified for lower landing speeds relative to the standard Crusader (blown wing and modified slats/flaps/tailplanes), but as far as I know, there was no down-side to these mods. Presumably a similar system could have been applied to the A-7, and if you bought Spey/TF-41 engined ones, we know from the Buccaneer that the Spey was good for BLC.
Australia taking over the Implacables, either from commissioning or post war is a long lived fantasy on mine.  I would have loved to have seen one of them upgraded and used to replace the un-modernised Sydney in the late 50s and the other to replace the modernised Melbourne in the early 60s, i.e. the Majestics would only ever have been an interim to build and train the RAN FAA.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2013, 12:49:49 AM »
Wrt to the F/A-18A alternatives, the list at one time included:
SAAB Viggen
McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle
Northrop P.530 Cobra
Lockheed CL-200 Lancer
Grumman F-14 Tomcat
Dassault Mirage F1, and
Panavia Tornado.
This was apparently the list during the early - mid '70s.

Later on the YF-17 was also looked at as well as the Sepecat Jaguar, A-10, Mirage 2000 were all mentioned.

The eventual list considered during the late '70s was:
McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle
General Dynamics F-16
Northop F-18L
McDonnel Douglas F-18A
Dassault Mirage 2000, and
Panavia Tornado.

There was all sorts of speculation at the time as to favourites.

Perhaps one of the most interesting proposals was that for the Mirage F.1.  Apparently Dassault offered around 1971 for Australia to join in a co-production agreement whereby Australian Industry would manufacture components for the world market regardless of whether or not the RAAF ordered the type.  During 1972, it looked as though the offer was going to be taken up but eventually, the DoD recommended against it.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 12:06:01 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2013, 12:51:49 AM »
On the matter of A-4 replacements, was the A-7 Corsair II ever considered for purchase by Australia?

I understand there was but not as an A-4 replacement but rather a partial F-111 replacement in the early '70s (when the F-111 was in trouble).  Speculation for aircraft to form a replacement for the F-111C included the A-7 Corsair II and/or the F-4E Phantom II.
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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2013, 12:56:10 AM »
Other RAAF/ADF Options:

AIR87:

Tenix/Agusta A129 Scorpion - a derivative of the A129INT
Bell ARH-1Z
Boeing AH-64D
Rooivalk
I also believe that at various times some of the Kamov/Mil products were offered as was the AH-60L and a variant of the Super Seasprite.

F-35 alternatives:

Under the guise of AIR6000, just about every modern combat aircraft was a potential option, though the F-35 join in killed off the comp.  Possible contenders included:
Eurofighter Typhoon
Dassault Rafale
SAAB Gripen
Boeing F-15 (in updated form)
Lockheed F-16 (in updated form)
Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet (surprise, surprise)
Sukhoi Flanker developments

AEW&C:

E-2s and E-3s were both looked at numerous times from the late '70s onwards, as was a AEW&C variant of the P-3 and the C-130.  The final contenders for what eventually became Wedgetail also included a C-130 derivative and an A-300 (or 310) fitted with the Israeli Phalcon system.

Caribou replacement:

Another often overlooked RAAF competition was for a Caribou replacement (under AIR5190).  Possible contenders included:
CASA C-295
CASA CN-235
IPTN CN-235 (Indonesian variant of above)
Lockheed C-27J (the apparent winner before the project was shelved - note, not cancelled)
Antonov AN-32 (yes this was proposed)
Re-engined Caribou with Turbo-props and possible fuselage extension.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2013, 02:55:45 AM »
Re-engined Caribou with Turbo-props and possible fuselage extension.

Isn't that a Buffalo Greg ?

Offline upnorth

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2013, 04:35:41 AM »
On the matter of A-4 replacements, was the A-7 Corsair II ever considered for purchase by Australia?

I understand there was but not as an A-4 replacement but rather a partial F-111 replacement in the early '70s (when the F-111 was in trouble).  Speculation for aircraft to form a replacement for the F-111C included the A-7 Corsair II and/or the F-4E Phantom II.

Interesting you should mention the Phantom as a partial F-111 replacement considering it had filled the gap when delivery of the F-111 was delayed.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that some of the RAAF crews who worked both the Phantom and the F-111 preferred the Phantom. Was there any truth to that or was it just F-4 propaganda?
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2013, 05:12:00 AM »
I read somewhere that the contingency plan should the F-111 be cancelled was three squadrons of F-4E, one squadron of RF-4C and a squadron of KC-135. 36 E's, 12 C's and 6 tankers.

Offline Litvyak

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2013, 05:21:36 AM »
Ooooh. That'd've been sweet.
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2013, 11:59:35 AM »
The eventual list considered during the late '70s was:
McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle
Northop F-18L
McDonnel Douglas F-18A
Dassault Mirage 2000, and
Panavia Tornado.

I'm surprised you missed the F-16, Greg.  It eventually reached the shortlist, along with the F-15, the F/A-18 and the Mirage 2000.

I remember getting caught up in an exchange of letters-to-the-editor in the National Times in 1987 with one of Peter Young's protégés who was heavily in favour of the F-16, while of course Carlo Kopp has always lamented that the F-15 wasn't chosen.   Strange thing was that I'd just finished my Master's studying with Peter Young (he was a rogue and a rascal, I can tell you).

IIRC the Mirage 2000 was knocked out because of it's radar, range and single engine.  The F-15 'cause of it's cost, the F-16 'cause of it's single engine and lack of BVR missile which of course left the compromise - the F/A-18 which is what we got.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 12:01:50 PM by Rickshaw »

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2013, 12:07:35 AM »
Re-engined Caribou with Turbo-props and possible fuselage extension.


Isn't that a Buffalo Greg ?


Err...no.  More like this
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2013, 12:10:30 AM »
I read somewhere that the contingency plan should the F-111 be cancelled was three squadrons of F-4E, one squadron of RF-4C and a squadron of KC-135. 36 E's, 12 C's and 6 tankers.

I doubt that would have been realistic since the key reason why any proposals (and they did exist) to keep the F-4Es were shot down since the RAAF couldn't provide the manpower to operate/support both the F-111s and the F-4Es.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2013, 12:12:07 AM »

I'm surprised you missed the F-16, Greg.  It eventually reached the shortlist, along with the F-15, the F/A-18 and the Mirage 2000.

Typo...along with a number in that post. :-[
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2013, 02:06:28 AM »
Re-engined Caribou with Turbo-props and possible fuselage extension.


Isn't that a Buffalo Greg ?


Err...no.  More like this


That looks freaking neat :)  ----  a Tracker turbo conversion would work for that -- hmm!

Offline Volkodav

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Australia
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2013, 07:55:44 AM »
I read somewhere that the contingency plan should the F-111 be cancelled was three squadrons of F-4E, one squadron of RF-4C and a squadron of KC-135. 36 E's, 12 C's and 6 tankers.

I doubt that would have been realistic since the key reason why any proposals (and they did exist) to keep the F-4Es were shot down since the RAAF couldn't provide the manpower to operate/support both the F-111s and the F-4Es.
It was from a statement by Malcolm Frazer when he was defence minister in the late 60s as to what would be required if the contract could not be renegotiated and the F-111 buy was cancelled.  Whether it was a planned alternative force structure or an assessment of what would be required to deliver an equivalent capability, I do not know.