Author Topic: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks  (Read 81156 times)

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #225 on: June 28, 2021, 01:36:06 AM »
Does anyone know of any updated variant of the Motoren und Turbinen Union MB 838, with a higher horsepower than the 830hp that powered the Leopard 1?

AFAIK, the last update was the 'modernized' MTU MB 838 Ka-501. This engine put out 1,400-1,500 hp - compared with 830 hp for Leo 1's MB 838 CaM 500. MTU Friedrichshafen (now part of Rolls-Royce Power Systems, ex-Tognum) does build another 90-degree V10 - the Common Rail 10V2000 (M94) - but, at 22.3 litres displacement, it is much smaller.

MB 838 : Bore/stroke 165 mm/175 mm
10V2000: Bore/stroke 135 mm/156 mm

But MTU seems to regard the V10 layout as obsolete for tank applications - V12s being inherently better balanced. I note that the Indian Army also toys with replacing its Arjun MBT's dated MB 838 Ka-501s with a modern V12. In the Indian case, the V12 preference is for a more closely comparable Cummins QSK38 - 38 litres (159 mm/159 mm bore/stroke) producing 920-1,260 hp (1,600 bhp @ 1900 rpm).

I don't know the external dimensions for these engines. The Arjun is a big vehicle which may give the Indians more options than operators of Leopard 1 variants. If you are looking at modern applications and/or Leo 1 upgrades, probably better to ditch the old MB 838 and ZF 4HP250 in favour of a modern  V12 and Renk transmission.
Auferstanden aus Ruinen; Glück für Menschen und Maschinen ...

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #226 on: June 28, 2021, 02:24:57 AM »
Does anyone know of any updated variant of the Motoren und Turbinen Union MB 838, with a higher horsepower than the 830hp that powered the Leopard 1?

MAD

Yes, supposedly the Indian Arjun tank is powered by a MTU MB 838 Ka-501 V10 putting out 1,400 hp.  There is also the MB 838 Ca-501 used in the OF-40 Mk.3 putting out 950hp.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #227 on: June 28, 2021, 07:36:54 AM »
Does anyone know of any updated variant of the Motoren und Turbinen Union MB 838, with a higher horsepower than the 830hp that powered the Leopard 1?

AFAIK, the last update was the 'modernized' MTU MB 838 Ka-501. This engine put out 1,400-1,500 hp - compared with 830 hp for Leo 1's MB 838 CaM 500. MTU Friedrichshafen (now part of Rolls-Royce Power Systems, ex-Tognum) does build another 90-degree V10 - the Common Rail 10V2000 (M94) - but, at 22.3 litres displacement, it is much smaller.

MB 838 : Bore/stroke 165 mm/175 mm
10V2000: Bore/stroke 135 mm/156 mm

But MTU seems to regard the V10 layout as obsolete for tank applications - V12s being inherently better balanced. I note that the Indian Army also toys with replacing its Arjun MBT's dated MB 838 Ka-501s with a modern V12. In the Indian case, the V12 preference is for a more closely comparable Cummins QSK38 - 38 litres (159 mm/159 mm bore/stroke) producing 920-1,260 hp (1,600 bhp @ 1900 rpm).

I don't know the external dimensions for these engines. The Arjun is a big vehicle which may give the Indians more options than operators of Leopard 1 variants. If you are looking at modern applications and/or Leo 1 upgrades, probably better to ditch the old MB 838 and ZF 4HP250 in favour of a modern  V12 and Renk transmission.

Thank you apophenia, very informative info.

MAD

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #228 on: June 28, 2021, 07:40:22 AM »
Does anyone know of any updated variant of the Motoren und Turbinen Union MB 838, with a higher horsepower than the 830hp that powered the Leopard 1?

MAD

Yes, supposedly the Indian Arjun tank is powered by a MTU MB 838 Ka-501 V10 putting out 1,400 hp.  There is also the MB 838 Ca-501 used in the OF-40 Mk.3 putting out 950hp.

Thanks GTX
I never knew there was a OF-40 Mk.3 variant of the OF-40 series🤔

So this 'MB 838 Ca-501 of 950hp:, would that slip into the existing space of the Leopard 1A3 to 1A5 engine bay?? If so one would assume it would need an upgraded transmission to handle the increased horsepower?

MAD
« Last Edit: June 28, 2021, 08:48:01 AM by M.A.D »

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #229 on: June 28, 2021, 09:00:47 AM »
Leo3 shown above:




Any chance of a Leo1 profile with a Bofors L74 105mm L/62 gun Greg???

M.A.D


Hey GTX, how did you go with this request?
I was never gifted with a physical reply 😯😉

MAD

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #230 on: June 29, 2021, 01:41:17 AM »
I didn't get around to it sorry - life presumably got in the way...  That said, it would really just show a slightly longer barrel
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #231 on: June 29, 2021, 02:23:02 AM »
I never knew there was a OF-40 Mk.3 variant of the OF-40 series🤔




All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #232 on: June 29, 2021, 02:24:56 AM »
Does anyone know of any kits of the Oto-Melara Palmaria 155mm SPH?

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #233 on: June 29, 2021, 03:52:58 AM »
Thanks again GTX

Helpful and informative 👍

MAD

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
  • "Define 'interesting'?"
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #234 on: June 29, 2021, 03:13:38 PM »
Doesn't look like this has shown up here before (I looked but didn't see it);

Stealth Leopard 1



Click on image for link to video.
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #235 on: August 04, 2021, 07:39:50 AM »
Comparing dimensions between production Leopard 2 and prototype.





Prototype's hull is lengthier than Leo 2A4's :o :icon_ninja:

Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #236 on: August 04, 2021, 11:25:07 AM »
Finn Armour in second winter war.

After the fall of Berlin Wall, finn gov and army decide to conquest back the territories that russians took during wwii.

Suply mint Leopard 2A would be too expensive, so finn authorities urge german gov and army to suply turrets and guns, new or used, for Leopard 2A 3 or 4.

When first victories come, finn army begin to take advance of "russian suply" ;)


Online Frank3k

  • Excession
  • Global Moderator
  • Formerly Frank2056. New upgrade!
    • My new webpage
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #237 on: August 04, 2021, 11:42:30 PM »
Doesn't look like this has shown up here before (I looked but didn't see it);

Stealth Leopard 1

So Tesla got the idea  for their Cybertruck from the stealth Leopard?


Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #238 on: August 06, 2021, 01:36:19 AM »
Italian army upgrading ther ageing M47 and M48 with Continental diesel engine package and OF-40 turret.



Note: OF-40 can be considered part of Leopard 1 family

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #239 on: August 08, 2021, 03:25:41 AM »
Random idea:  Leopard 1 fitted with either 142mm Anti-Char Rapide Autopropulsé (ACRA) or 152mm M81/MGM-51
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Geoff

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #240 on: August 17, 2021, 03:45:49 AM »
Proposed TAM with Leo 2 turret

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #241 on: August 17, 2021, 04:48:39 AM »
Proposed TAM with Leo 2 turret

This is the proposed Tanque Argentino Pesado (TAP) which shared the stretched, 7-roadwheel hull of the TAM VCA 155 Palmaria self-propelled gun.
Auferstanden aus Ruinen; Glück für Menschen und Maschinen ...

Offline Geoff

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #242 on: August 17, 2021, 05:45:20 AM »
Proposed TAM with Leo 2 turret

This is the proposed Tanque Argentino Pesado (TAP) which shared the stretched, 7-roadwheel hull of the TAM VCA 155 Palmaria self-propelled gun.

yes I believe so

Offline Marderman

  • Guess what he builds lots of...
    • didi-berlage.de
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #243 on: August 17, 2021, 04:59:03 PM »
Hello,
TAM with Leo 2, I check it some years before, look here:
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1074.25 It called TAP Tank.

In the past few weeks I have sent some Leopards to "Leopard Club":
http://www.leopardclub.ca/ReadersModels/Diethelm_Berlage/


Offline Geoff

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #244 on: August 18, 2021, 10:02:26 PM »
Hello,
TAM with Leo 2, I check it some years before, look here:
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1074.25 It called TAP Tank.

In the past few weeks I have sent some Leopards to "Leopard Club":
http://www.leopardclub.ca/ReadersModels/Diethelm_Berlage/


Sorry had not seen the Marder thread - I'm a bit late to the party.

Can i ask where you found the Argentine army star markings on the display picture, or did you print them?

I am trying to do some Argentine what ifs and I am confused about some soft vehicle markings. I know a code EA xxxxxx is used now. But some trucks in the '82 war had the "sun" marking I think - the picture is not good quality. I have also seen vehicles with the air force roundel. Are these specific to army - navy - air force, or ??? Confused am I

Offline Zaskar24

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #245 on: August 22, 2021, 11:18:38 AM »
This is an interesting hybrid that I just found out about on the Secret Projects forum. I did not see it here. It does not look like an adapter is needed with the Altay turret, unlike the LeClerc turreted Euro Tank.  https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/the-anatolian-leopard-altay-turret-leopard-ii-chassis-hybrid.36416/

It makes me wonder if the K2 Black Panther turret would work the same since the Altay is at least partially based on it, if memory serves.

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #246 on: September 05, 2021, 03:51:57 PM »
Leo3 shown above:




Any chance of a Leo1 profile with a Bofors L74 105mm L/62 gun Greg???

M.A.D


Would such a lengthened gun as the Bofors L74 require additional bracing/support along its length, so as to stop warping, seeing that on the
Stridsvagn 103, it's fixed/supported on the glacis
along the length of the barrel? Something akin to what they've done with the Puma IFV (see attachment)?

MAD
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 04:20:13 PM by M.A.D »

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #247 on: September 05, 2021, 03:56:48 PM »
Leo3 shown above:




Any chance of a Leo1 profile with a Bofors L74 105mm L/62 gun Greg???

M.A.D



ysi_maniac, could you do your coloured camouflage and accessories (equipment/tools/crew gear) magic with GTX's profile drawing???

MAD

Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #248 on: September 15, 2021, 07:43:10 AM »
Leopard with 2 different 120 mm Leonardo turrets. :thumbsup:


Offline newtonk

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #249 on: September 17, 2021, 04:54:50 AM »
Found this oddity, posted here for discussion and dissection...