Author Topic: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 43445 times)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2012, 06:24:14 AM »
I was thinking inside the box and looking for something that would match up with the existing engine nacelle...

Two possibilities leap to mind. The Kestrel XVI installation from the South African Ju 86Z-3 roughly matched the nacelle shape for a P&W Hornet. And, of course, the Napier Dagger installation from the HP.53 Hereford used roughly the same nacelle as the Pegasus-powered Hampden.

Outside that box (and possible verging on the nutty), how about the Lativia multi-bank, 36-cylinder engine based on DH Gispy Six cylinder banks? That engine (never built) was intended for a 1940 Latvian fighter project, the VEF I-19. An inverted-Y, the MI-02 was predicted to put out 1,470 hp. That was a military rating and probably highly optimistic. Let's say 1,200 hp was more realistic ... perfect for the Dakota  ;)
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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2012, 06:28:25 AM »
I was thinking inside the box and looking for something that would match up with the existing engine nacelle...

Two possibilities leap to mind. The Kestrel XVI installation from the South African Ju 86Z-3 roughly matched the nacelle shape for a P&W Hornet. And, of course, the Napier Dagger installation from the HP.53 Hereford used roughly the same nacelle as the Pegasus-powered Hampden.

Outside that box (and possible verging on the nutty), how about the Lativia multi-bank, 36-cylinder engine based on DH Gispy Six cylinder banks? That engine (never built) was intended for a 1940 Latvian fighter project, the VEF I-19. An inverted-Y, the MI-02 was predicted to put out 1,470 hp. That was a military rating and probably highly optimistic. Let's say 1,200 hp was more realistic ... perfect for the Dakota  ;)

Forgot to mention that all of my C-47 kits are in 1/48th scale save for the three R4D kits that are bound for kitnut617 in the near future.
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Offline simmie

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2012, 07:38:03 AM »
Airspeed proposed building the Dak under licence with either Hercules or Merlin power.

The DH Albatross was powered by the DH Gipsy King (or 12), it was over weight and only put out 450-550hp.
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Offline jcf

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2012, 08:00:57 AM »
The civil PBY Super-Cat conversions switched out the P & W R-1830s for the Wright R-2600s from a B-25.
When Terry Moore built the Super-Cat from the film Always he used Monogram B-25 engines/cowlings
on the Monogram PBY. Due to the larger diameter of the R-2600 he did have to build up the nacelle aft of
the cowlings.

So as the Monogram C-47A/DC-3A kit has R-1830s, (note that DC-3s and C-47s had the Wright R-1820) do
the same thing using Monogram B-25H/J engines/cowlings. Then you can use the R-2800s/cowlings from
a Monogram A-26 to convert your engine-less B-25H to the one-off NA-98X.  ;)

BTW the Monogram A-1 R-3350 cowling has long been pointed out to be undersized, so it could work as
a new design R-2800 installation.  ;D
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Offline raafif

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2012, 03:11:49 PM »
Merlins ....


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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2012, 03:18:59 PM »
 :)
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2012, 11:06:52 PM »
While browsing the Big H's website yesterday, the home page was advertizing a number of Russian built DC-3's (Li-2), one with skiis and the another had four large bombs under the fuselage and a dorsal turret mid-fuselage

http://www.hannants.co.uk/

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2012, 05:36:11 AM »
Merlins ....



Hmm, swap in the engine installation from a DC-4M North Star?  Which leads to the thought of higher-performance North Stars with the Merlins replaced by Griffons (perhaps off Shackletons?).

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2012, 06:29:53 AM »
Which leads to the thought of higher-performance North Stars with the Merlins replaced by Griffons (perhaps off Shackletons?).

Hey! get out of my head Evan ---- I've been thinking about Shackleton Griffons on a DC-6 to make a North Star II

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2012, 06:36:08 AM »
Not in your head, it's just that great minds think alike. :D  On the other hand, I wonder how a Centaurus installation on either a DC-4 or DC-6 would work?  Perhaps the nice, clean cowling form the Airspeed Ambassador with five-bladed props?

Offline apophenia

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2012, 12:42:15 PM »
Oh sure, now you're in my head instead! I had a whole AltHist Canadair thing worked out for Litvak's AltCanada scenario. The North Star was powered by a Bristol Canada über-Hercules, the 14-cyl Boreas (effectively a Hercules with longer-stroke Centaurus cylinders).

Canadair's follow-on was the Trans-Atlantic CL-5 Argonaut 2 for BOAC powered by 2,625 hp Centaurus 661s. Next was the more economical CL-7 North Star 3 which used the 18-cylinder Balius, a power-recovery (or turbo-compound) derivative of the parent firm's Centaurus radial.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2012, 11:53:45 PM »
Not in your head, it's just that great minds think alike. :D  On the other hand, I wonder how a Centaurus installation on either a DC-4 or DC-6 would work?  Perhaps the nice, clean cowling form the Airspeed Ambassador with five-bladed props?

He! He!  I think these are great ideas all around.  Off the top of your head Evan, what would you say would be a maximum that you could up-engine an existing airframe, like a DC-3 (power wise).  To my mind, putting Centaurous' on a DC-3 would produce a seriously overpowered aircraft, apart from the weight factor on the airframe

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2012, 03:13:30 AM »
That's a rather difficult question because the answer varies from airframe to airframe with the driving factor being whether you can retain control after losing an engine or engines (for 3- or 4-engined aircraft) in critical flight regimes.  Case in point being the late model variants of the MU-2 where the max. power was limited by what you could handle when losing an engine on takeoff; the engines were thermodynamically capable of rather more, but takeoff power was limited.  On the other hand, hot and high performance was spritely because you could hold that maximum takeoff performance to 3000 ft above sea level on an ISA +30 day.  I suspect the DC-3 would be a bit more forgiving but you also need to take weight and balance considerations into account. As you might expect, aircraft design is a balancing act between a lot of requirements and choices.

In your particular example, if I put Centaurus engines on a DC-3, I would either need to extend the fuselage aft or place some balance weight aft to get the cg back where it should be (frankly, I like the idea of extending the rear fuselage with an extra frame just aft of the wing for extra capacity but putting some heavy equipment in the aft fuselage would work, too).

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2012, 05:20:02 AM »
Should cost be no object,  two Tamiya F4U-1's could donate their engines, exhausts, cowlings, and shortened props for a beautiful pair of 2800's.   The wing would get a 1 inch extension at the root and the MLG get a bit of a stretch to allow for slightly larger props.   The aft fuselage stretch would apply along with other Super DC-3 features.   But suddenly one is into significant capital outlay in 1/48 before the saw hits styrene.    :o :o :o

And given all the sanding that would be needed, it would, IMHO, be simpler to use the Monogram kit vs. the Trumpeter because recessed panel lines are a bugger to work with if dealing with major changes.   
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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2012, 06:26:40 AM »
Should cost be no object,  two Tamiya F4U-1's could donate their engines, exhausts, cowlings, and shortened props for a beautiful pair of 2800's.   The wing would get a 1 inch extension at the root and the MLG get a bit of a stretch to allow for slightly larger props.   The aft fuselage stretch would apply along with other Super DC-3 features.   But suddenly one is into significant capital outlay in 1/48 before the saw hits styrene.    :o :o :o

And given all the sanding that would be needed, it would, IMHO, be simpler to use the Monogram kit vs. the Trumpeter because recessed panel lines are a bugger to work with if dealing with major changes.


The Monogram kit would be a cheaper alternative for your parts unless you absolutely have to have three blade propellers for the project.
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Offline raafif

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2012, 07:17:59 AM »
The Monogram kit would be a cheaper alternative for your parts unless you absolutely have to have three blade propellers for the project.

Four-blade props would look better -- the Hasegawa/Academy F4U-4 or Monogram P-47 bubbletops are cheap donors for engine-pods.

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2012, 08:12:06 AM »
Four-blade props would look better -- the Hasegawa/Academy F4U-4 or Monogram P-47 bubbletops are cheap donors for engine-pods.


More blades = More Better ;)

One of my recent quests was to source a couple of six blade propellers from the Hasegawa 1/48th scale J7W Shinden just for such a purpose. 
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Offline jcf

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2012, 11:23:31 AM »
A Monogram A-26 would be a cheaper source for R-2800s and cowlings, and, being a Douglas aircraft, probably
much closer in appearance to what an R-2800 installation on a DC-3 airframe would have looked like in reality,
if such a thing had been done.
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
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actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2012, 11:35:07 AM »
Sigh...I just walked away from a very inexpensive A-26 kit at the show yesterday.    :icon_crap:
Not only could it provide the engines, it likely would have simplified  construction of Super DC-3 flying surfaces.    Hmmm.... (where's the facepalm emoticon?  ;D)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 11:55:46 AM by Daryl J. »
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Offline finsrin

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2012, 11:36:10 AM »
There are five blade 1/48 1/72 Spitfire propeller kits at Great Models.
Interested to see R-2800 (3350?) build of a DC-3.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2012, 01:27:00 PM »
So here's a Russian variant of the Li-2:

Radar, platypus style shoved into the lower nose.
Tu-4 radial engines x 2
Long fuselage aft the main wing
Revised main wing profile reducing leading edge sweep.  (Obviously I think the DC-3 wing planform looks wonky when viewed from above, every one of my proposed DC-3 variants redoes the wing sweep)
Net visual effect results in a much more Bulldoggish looking aircraft in the same vein as the Beaufighter and Grumman Skyrocket.
Role?

Who knows?   Anti submarine in the Arctic circa 1960's?   Eurasia transport from Moscow to the U.S.S.R east coast?   Early airborne carrier of a medium range ballistic nuke?    Anti narcotics policing in the 'Stans north and east of Afghanistan from 1980 to current?   
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2012, 02:05:37 PM »
Were the IL-12 and IL-14 derived from the DC-3/C-47?   
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2012, 06:45:20 AM »
Monogram C-47 with engine nacelles and spinners liberated from the noses of two Monogram P-40B's.
Aftermarket exhausts.   Alternate wide blade props.
Random and sundry radars suitable for the time period. 
Refueling probe similar to the one on the C-27 Spartan.
Used as a test bed for air-to-surface missiles under development at various test ranges until about 1995.
Both USAF and USN apps.   

Hey, if the Brits can keep a Meteor flying to test ejection seats, why can't the US use an overbuilt sky truck too? 
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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2012, 06:56:25 AM »
Hey, if the Brits can keep a Meteor flying to test ejection seats, why can't the US use an overbuilt sky truck too?

Considering a large amount of those planes are still in flying condition and used to this day, why the heck not?!  I really like that test bird idea.  Sounds like something Pax River would get a lot of use out of.
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Re: Douglas DC-2, DC-3 and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2012, 07:21:55 AM »
Well I know the RAAF have long used DC-3/C-47  aircraft as testbeds
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