Author Topic: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 29264 times)

Offline jcf

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2014, 01:15:34 AM »
Summat to think about, F.9/37 #1 was Taurus powered and had a top speed over 350 mph,
F.9/37 #2 was Peregrine powered and could barely break 330.

So perhaps a developed Taurus for Whirlwind?
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2014, 06:25:13 AM »
Or if a small, short-stroke multi-row radial may have made the Whirlwind more suitable for SEAC operations?

The Taurus would fit for this idea, as its diameter of 46.25" is only a few inches more than the RR Peregrine's height.

Of course, if you're willing to go American for your engines.

The Wright R-1820 Cyclone is a bit too large at 54.25" diameter but is about 50kg lighter & puts out about the same power.

Australian production radial Whirlwinds could have gone for the P&W R-1830 Twin Wasp, diameter 48.03" & much better power output, as we were already producing them for the Wirraway, Boomerang & Beaufort.


**Note: All of the radials are heavier than the Peregrine, the Taurus by almost 70kg, the Cyclone by about 20kg & the Twin Wasp by about 40kg.
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2014, 10:16:47 AM »
It might just get into the air but it wouldn't be going anywhere very fast IMO.  It'd look like those Fw190s with a torpedo underneath.  Would more than likely need a lengthened tailwheel and much stronger undercarriage.

Actually, that might work - maybe as a last ditch effort as Great Britain collapses...

Remember, the CofG of the torpedo would have to be under the CoG of the aircraft so it would be mounted quite forward, projecting in front of the nose by quite a way.
*snicker* I could see that generating some ribald comments.

As long as some wag doesn't paint the torpedo pink, it should be OK.  ;D

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2014, 10:26:43 AM »
Or if a small, short-stroke multi-row radial may have made the Whirlwind more suitable for SEAC operations?

The Taurus would fit for this idea, as its diameter of 46.25" is only a few inches more than the RR Peregrine's height.

Of course, if you're willing to go American for your engines.

The Wright R-1820 Cyclone is a bit too large at 54.25" diameter but is about 50kg lighter & puts out about the same power.

Australian production radial Whirlwinds could have gone for the P&W R-1830 Twin Wasp, diameter 48.03" & much better power output, as we were already producing them for the Wirraway, Boomerang & Beaufort.

Post 1942 you could replace the R-1830 with R-2000s, for more power for basically the same dimensions.

Offline Kerick

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2015, 06:34:48 AM »
Doing some web surfing caused me to encounter the following article.
http://www.airvectors.net/avwhirl.html
Nice descriptions of Westland projects in the 30's.
The interesting part was at the very end of the article the author mentioned seeing a single engine assymetric "Singlewind" at a model show. So he goes on to suggest "what ifs" of a P-38 style version, an F-82 Zwilling version and a P&W Wasp engined version.
Not often does an author wander into "whiffland" in a serious article. Nice surprise.
Now the questions are; Has anyone built one of these? and why didn't anyone consider P&W or Wright radials for the Whirlwind in RW? (It would have put the "whirl" in Whirlwind!)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #55 on: December 25, 2015, 04:48:09 AM »
Not saying this is accurate or even feasible, but how about an Alison powered Whirlwind:

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Offline jcf

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #56 on: December 25, 2015, 06:30:36 AM »
Use early mark P-38 cowlings instead for a more likely look.

Or if you wanna go super sleek, YP-38 stylie.

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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #57 on: August 06, 2018, 08:27:19 PM »
Found on Facebook.

Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2018, 07:22:46 PM »
Awesome, imagine the floatplane version flying off HMS Prince Of Wales  ;)

Offline jcf

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2018, 02:02:55 AM »
The floatplane is an interesting idea, however it would need larger, longer floats.
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #60 on: August 10, 2018, 03:08:43 AM »
The floatplane is an interesting idea, however it would need larger, longer floats.

In 1/72, perhaps the floats from a E16A1 Zuiun? The take-off weights are similar - 10,000 lb for the Zuiun,  11,445 lb for the Whirlwind. (1/48 would be tricker ... is there a kit in this scale other than that of  Raccoon Models?)

Or maybe use two Rufe main floats?
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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2018, 06:18:52 AM »
Cool
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #62 on: August 11, 2018, 09:01:05 AM »
Well I'm making these for a Blenheim (actually a Bolingbroke). It's max T.O.W. is 14,400 lbs so just a tad big, but they could be reduced in size even more than what I am doing to them

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #63 on: April 14, 2019, 11:13:13 PM »
How about the RAF goes for the original, lighter, Kestrel powered Whilwind and gets it in service, much earlier, in much greater numbers?

My thinking is with production already underway with a proven and reliable engine, the design would be much more likely to be perfected, mass produced, then improved.

Offline jcf

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2019, 04:37:33 AM »
How about the RAF goes for the original, lighter, Kestrel powered Whilwind ... "
???

The original twin-tailed P.9 was to be powered by the Kestrel K.26, which was just the
developmental designation of what was later named the Peregrine.

“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2019, 05:26:58 AM »
How about the RAF goes for the original, lighter, Kestrel powered Whilwind ... "
???

The original twin-tailed P.9 was to be powered by the Kestrel K.26, which was just the
developmental designation of what was later named the Peregrine.

Are there any photos or drawings of the twin tail version Jon ?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2019, 01:52:46 AM »
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 01:55:15 AM by GTX_Admin »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline jcf

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2019, 03:38:17 AM »

The original twin-tailed P.9 was to be powered by the Kestrel K.26, which was just the
developmental designation of what was later named the Peregrine.


Are there any photos or drawings of the twin tail version Jon ?


Here ya go, 3-view. Note that it's not simply a twin-tailed Whirlwind.



“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
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whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline jcf

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2019, 03:42:57 AM »
The drawing Greg posted shows it as twin-tailed Whirlwind, which the 3-view shows
as not being the case. The twin tail was abandoned at the same time that the fuselage
was deepened and the inner wing panels straightened at the trailing edge for the
Fowler flaps.
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2019, 03:58:42 AM »
Cheers Jon/Greg, it looks very interesting  :smiley:

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2019, 06:53:57 PM »
Bugger, now I need to find the reference.  I am trying to remember where I read it but the gist was the original P.9 concept had Kestrels and they were replaced with K26/Peregrine as weight increased from added equipment and specification changes.

I have only read this in one place (and cant remember where) so it may not be the case and the author could have been confusing the K26 with the 650hp Kestrel. 


Not wedded to the idea at all but if it was the case that there was a 650hp Kestrel powered design, it could have been available earlier and not suffered the development issues of the actual adopted design.

Offline jcf

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2019, 05:55:43 AM »
Buttler BSP Vol. 3 Fighters & Bombers 1935 - 1950, states explicitly
that the Kestrel K.26 (Peregrine) was picked at the beginning.
The Putnam Westland Aircraft since 1915, and Goulding's Interceptor,
state the same.

The Kestrel XVI would most likely be the best match fotr your idea:
670 hp at 2,225 rpm for takeoff
690 hp at 2,600 rpm at 11,000 ft (continuous power, medium supercharged))
745 hp at 3,000 rpm at 14,500 ft (Max emergency power, fully supercharged))
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2019, 07:25:20 PM »
Buttler BSP Vol. 3 Fighters & Bombers 1935 - 1950, states explicitly
that the Kestrel K.26 (Peregrine) was picked at the beginning.
The Putnam Westland Aircraft since 1915, and Goulding's Interceptor,
state the same.

The Kestrel XVI would most likely be the best match fotr your idea:
670 hp at 2,225 rpm for takeoff
690 hp at 2,600 rpm at 11,000 ft (continuous power, medium supercharged))
745 hp at 3,000 rpm at 14,500 ft (Max emergency power, fully supercharged))

Thanks for that.

Offline jcf

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2019, 02:35:53 AM »
Buttler also mentions that consideration had been given to totally redesigning the Kestrel, going
beyond the Merlin-like features added to make the Peregrine, this was passed on as it would
have required more redesign of the P.9 and added to the overall delay. What the changes
would have been he doesn't say, to me it gives rise to visions of an even slimmer installation
something along the lines of the Merlin 130/131 installation as used on the DH Hornet.

Goulding mentions that a Dewotine D.510 was borrowed by the RAF to explore the possibilities
of the engine mounted cannon concept, and that Rolls-Royce offered to create a moteur canon
version of the Kestrel, giving the possibility of a six gunned P.9/Whirlwind.
 ;D
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline apophenia

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Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2019, 06:23:56 AM »
... Rolls-Royce offered to create a moteur canon
version of the Kestrel, giving the possibility of a six gunned P.9/Whirlwind.
 ;D

Ooo, that gives all kinds of late '30s RAF options. Cheers Jon  :smiley:
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