Author Topic: USA vs UK/Commonwealth  (Read 3246 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« on: June 04, 2013, 05:44:20 PM »
From Wikipedia:

Quote
Joint Army and Navy Basic War Plan Red, also known as the Atlantic Strategic War Plan[citation needed], was a war plan created by the United States investigating the measures required to fight a war with Great Britain (the "Red" forces).  War Plan Red discussed the potential for fighting a war with Britain and its Empire and outlined those steps necessary to defend the Atlantic coast. It further discussed fighting a two-front war with both Japan and the British Empire simultaneously (as envisioned in War Plan Red-Orange).

The war plan outlined those actions that would be necessary to initiate war between Great Britain and the United States. The plan suggested that the British would initially have the upper hand by virtue of the strength of its navy. The plan further assumed that Britain would probably use its dominion in Canada as a springboard from which to initiate a retaliatory invasion of the United States. The assumption was taken that at first Britain would fight a defensive battle against invading American forces, but that the US would eventually defeat the British by blockading the United Kingdom and economically isolating it.

So, under what circumstances could we see this being enacted?  What implications?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2013, 08:26:04 PM »
It depends, are we talking about pre-WW I or post-WW I?  Different conditions apply to these cases as WW I tended to solidify sentiments in the US in favor of the UK for the most part, though there was a strong isolationist string of political thought present.

Offline Litvyak

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Re: USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2013, 09:08:52 PM »
Defence Scheme Number One!

Evan: if I'm not wrong, War Plan Red was from around 1930?

Though I wonder about that idea of blockading the UK... in order to do that properly, I'd think you'd need to blockade the British Isles themselves, and both Canadian coasts, and Australia, and Africa and India... so I think the only way that could have been done is if the USN could have effectively eliminated the RN and the Dominion navies... which may not have been all that easy a task.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2013, 01:40:21 AM »
War Plan Red was developed by the United States Army following the 1927 Geneva Naval Conference and approved in May 1930 by the Secretary of War and the Secretary of Navy and updated in 1934–35. In 1939 on the outbreak of World War II and the UK's fight against the Axis powers, a decision was taken that no further planning was required but that the plan be retained.

As to the blockading of the UK, maybe if the USA allied with some of the European Continental powers...say France?
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2013, 02:00:50 AM »
As to reasons for this all coming to reality...

Maybe in 1932, instead of Franklin Delano Roosevelt being elected, Herbert Hoover was beaten by a more militant candidate who favoured an expansionist agenda such as invading Canada as a way of overcoming the Great Depression?  Basically someone more akin to Adolf Hitler in Germany (though not necessarily with the associated anti-semetitism etc.).  Such an invasion goes ahead...maybe following or even coincident with an initial invasion of some of the Caribbean islands?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2013, 05:16:09 AM »
Well, FDR's documented anti-semitism was bad enough.  Given some of the other potential candidates, such a militant expansionist wouldn't be out of the question; I can just see such a person pulling out of a lot of naval treaties, too, and going on a naval building spree as well as building up the other armed forces (it does put people to work, either in the armed forces or supporting them; not the best way, but it works for a while - after all, the term "moral equivalent of war" originated with the Progressives of that period and earlier).

Offline Alvis 3.1

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Re: USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2013, 07:28:06 AM »
You could have the coup that was foiled by Smedley Butler as the point of departure.

For those not familiar with Smedley Butler, he was a very highly decorated Marine Corps Major General, who was approached by a consortium of high ranking industrialists with the intent of being the military leader for a coup against Roosevelt. They felt Roosevelt was a closet Communist, and they needed to overthrow him as soon as possible. Butler was approached as they felt he had the respect of the common man in the military. Butler, however, had experienced a turn of heart on intervention and such activities, so he ratted them out. However, without any real proof other than the word of the most decorated Marine in history up to that point, said captains of industry laughed off the accusations.

So,if Butler had kept his mouth shut, taken the job, and led a coup, there may have been a decent chance something akin to what Italy had become arising. You then have the stage set for confrontation with the UK and her Commonwealth.

If you haven't read up on Smedley Butler. It's pretty interesting stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

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Offline arkon

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Re: USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2013, 11:26:24 AM »
place holder until i collect my thoughts further. but  to get to the jist of things go further back in US /UK history  USA not only wins its indapendance from england but does all it can to halt all uk expansion and suchforth, and send all other colony's into rebellion against the crown.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2013, 11:50:15 AM »
Interesting proposition:  Kind of an early anti-imperialist stance?
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2013, 05:21:50 PM »
Didn't the US actually have a referendum early on to decide whether their official language should be English or German?  Lets say they selected German and re-aligned politically as well.

Offline Litvyak

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Re: USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2013, 08:55:19 PM »
I don't know if there was an actual referendum but it was between English, German and Dutch.
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Offline jcf

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Re: USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2013, 02:26:26 AM »
The Muhlenberg Vote is a myth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhlenberg_legend

http://maxkade.iupui.edu/adams/chap7.html

Anyhow the US doesn't have an official language.

As to the original question: why does the US have to be cast as the bad guy in such a scenario?
Why not a fascistic, neo-feudal UK? The UK and Commonwealth had plenty of upper-class/business
leaders who thought the Nazis, Fascists and Japanese Imperialists were wonderful.
Of course you'll probably need to step back in time and create a state where Parliament remains
subservient to the Crown, and then put this guy on the throne:



 ;D

BTW in real world terms war between the UK and US was an unlikely scenario by the end of the 19th
century, and even more unlikely by the 1930s because the two were so interlinked economically by
trade, and finance, that a war would have crippled both economies. This goes double for Canada and
the US.

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2013, 02:36:07 AM »
True re the intertwining of economies etc...though we can dream here. ;)

True also, no-one said the USA has to be the 'bad guy'.  It could easily be a UK/Commonwealth protagonist.  Maybe someone wanted to re-integrate the USA into the Empire...

Thanks also for reminding me of one of my favourite films.  Any excuse to put this marking on models is a good thing:

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2013, 02:38:34 AM »
Maybe even something such as this could be the trigger... ;) ;D

Quote
John Cleese Letter to USA

To the citizens of the United States of America, in the light of your failure to elect a competent President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective today.

Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories. Except Utah, which she does not fancy. Your new prime minister (The Right Honourable Tony Blair, MP for the 97.85% of you who have until now been unaware that there is a world outside your borders) will appoint a minister for America without the need for further elections. Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed. To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

1. You should look up revocation in the Oxford English Dictionary. Then look up aluminium. Check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'favour' and 'neighbour', skipping the letter 'U' is nothing more than laziness on your part. Likewise, you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters. You will end your love affair with the letter 'Z' (pronounced 'zed' not 'zee') and the suffix ize will be replaced by the suffix ise. You will learn that the suffix 'burgh' is pronounced 'burra' e.g. Edinburgh. You are welcome to respell Pittsburgh as 'Pittsberg' if you can't cope with correct pronunciation.

Generally, you should raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up vocabulary. Using the same twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. Look up interspersed. There will be no more 'bleeps' in the Jerry Springer show. If you're not old enough to cope with bad language then you shouldn't have chat shows. When you learn to develop your vocabulary then you won't have to use bad language as often.

2. There is no such thing as "US English". We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take account of the reinstated letter 'u' and the elimination of -ize.

3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents. It really isn't that hard. English accents are not limited to cockney,upper-class twit or Mancunian (Daphne in Frasier). You will also have to learn how to understand regional accents - Scottish dramas such as Taggart will no longer be broadcast with subtitles. While we're talking about regions, you must learn that there is no such place as Devonshire in England. The name of the county is Devon. If you persist in calling it Devonshire, all American States will become shires e.g. Texasshire, Floridashire, Louisianashire.

4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as the good guys. Hollywood will be required to cast English actors to play English characters. British sit-coms such as Men Behaving Badly or Red Dwarf will not be re-cast and watered down for a wishy-washy American audience who can't cope with the humour of occasional political incorrectness.

5. You should relearn your original national anthem, God Save The Queen but only after fully carrying out task 1. We would not want you to get confused and give up half way through.

6. You should stop playing American football. There is only one kind of football. What you refer to as American football is not a very good game. The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your borders may have noticed that no one else plays American football. You will no longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play proper football. Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls. It is a difficult game. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies). We are hoping to get together at least a US Rugby sevens side by 2005. You should stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the 'World Series' for a game which is not played outside of America. Since only 2.15% of you are aware that there is a world beyond your borders,your error is understandable. Instead of baseball, you will be allowed to play a girls' game called rounders, which is baseball without fancy team strip, oversized gloves, collector cards or hotdogs.

7. You will no longer be allowed to own or carry guns. You will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous in public than a vegetable peeler. Because we don't believe you are sensible enough to handle potentially dangerous items, you will require a permit if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.

8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 2nd will be a new national holiday, but only in England. It will be called Indecisive Day.

9. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for your own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what we mean. All road intersections will be replaced with roundabouts. You will start driving on the left with immediate effect. At the same time,you will go metric with immediate effect and conversion tables. Roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour.

10. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips. Fries aren't even French, they are Belgian though 97.85% of you (including the guy who discovered fries while in Europe) are not aware of a country called Belgium. Those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called crisps. Real chips are thick cut and fried in animal fat. The traditional accompaniment to chips is beer which should be served warm and flat. Waitresses will be trained to be more aggressive with customers.

11. As a sign of penance 5 grams of sea salt per cup will be added to all tea made within the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, this quantity to be doubled for tea made within the city of Boston itself.

12. The cold tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all, it is lager. From November 1st only proper British Bitter will be referred to as beer,and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as Lager. The substances formerly known as American Beer will henceforth be referred to as Near-Frozen Knat's Urine,with the exception of the product of the American Budweiser company whose product will be referred to as Weak Near-Frozen Knat's Urine. This will allow true Budweiser (as manufactured for the last 1000 years in Pilsen,Czech Republic) to be sold without risk of confusion.

13. From November 10th the UK will harmonise petrol (or Gasoline, as you will be permitted to keep calling it until April 1st 2005) prices with the former USA. The UK will harmonise its prices to those of the former USA and the Former USA will, in return, adopt UK petrol prices (roughly $6/US gallon- get used to it).

14. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you're not adult enough to be independent. Guns should only be handled by adults. If you're not adult enough to sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist then you're not grown up enough to handle a gun.

15. Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us crazy.

16. Tax collectors from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all revenues due (backdated to 1776).

Thank you for your co-operation and have a great day.

John Cleese
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline raafif

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Re: USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2013, 05:59:37 AM »
no-one said the USA has to be the 'bad guy'.  It could easily be a UK/Commonwealth protagonist.  Maybe someone wanted to re-integrate the USA into the Empire...

seems ideal for Maggie Thatcher after the Falklands War concluded .... ;)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2013, 09:08:24 AM »
How about this:
Japan commits ground forces serving along side Commonwealth forces from the very start of WWI.  They serve in Gallipoli and on the Western Front eventually supporting a Corps often serving alongside the ANZACs.  In the Middle  East they provide Cavalry that serves alongside and then under the command of Chauvel.  The IJN integrates a substantial force into the Grand Fleet for the duration.

The US on the other hand remains neutral and then attempts to assert authority after the extended C1920 war over the victorious but weakened Allies.  They push for Naval disarmament, de-colonization and a League of Nations that they control.  Europe is a basket case, exhausted by the war and the Spanish Flu but the Uk a :icon_punal:nd Japan, although weakened, tell them to get stuffed.

This does not lead to war in the short term but does draw Japan closer to the UK, with particularly close relationships developing between Japan, Canada, Australia and New Zealand garnered from the mutual respect and admiration that grew in the trenches beaches and deserts where they bled and died together.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2013, 09:59:18 PM »
^^^^^
Sounds quite plausible to me. Another, additional, point of dispute could be greater US insistence on something similar to the Marshall Plan post-WW1. I seem to recall they did try, albeit not strongly, to dissuade the European allies from taking punitive measures against Germany & Austria-Hungary after WW1 - just take that one or two steps further.

Next point: Does there need to be a "bad guy"?

I doubt any nation or alliance has ever though of itself as the "bad guy" prior to or during a war (if ever), quite the reverse, in fact. Also, it appears to me, that most wars have, actually, been fought between either two sets of "bad guys" or two sets of "good guys" with very few real "good guy - bad guy" conflicts (WW2 being one of those few exceptions).

The base causes of most wars are population pressure, food production & trade (which actually relates closely with the previous two). Technology, also, plays a part - largely by increasing the pressures which build up due to these causes before they need to be released. There are sub-plots of religion, politics & tribalism/racism thrown in there but the base causes remain pretty constant.

???

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: USA vs UK/Commonwealth
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2013, 06:52:36 AM »
Agreed, no need for a bad guy, just conflicting interests and the resulting friction.