Author Topic: Apophenia's Offerings  (Read 671895 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3025 on: July 31, 2022, 01:47:42 AM »
I like though I suspect that canopy might require some bracing.
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3026 on: July 31, 2022, 03:59:19 AM »
I like though I suspect that canopy might require some bracing.

Interesting. I wondered if it might require a little more tail area but hadn't considered extra canopy bracing.

What is the concern which dictates the extra bracing, Greg? There is a speed difference - 623 mph for the Hunter F.Mk.6 versus 570-600 mph for the CL-30 and T-33. But, at 640 mph, the  F-94C Starfire was faster than the Hunter. And, AFAIK, the F-94C also used the T-33 canopy.

Of course, 'my' tandem Hunter might be slightly faster than the equivalent single-seater (assuming better aerodynamics for a longer canopy). Aerodynamics would also be improved by having removed the 'Sabrinas' (I was also trying to control weight gain by eliminating two of the ADENs).

After banging together the above, it occurred to me that there was a plausible development story other than the RAF or RNethAF abandoning their preference for side-by-side jet trainers. What if the Belgians opted for tandem 2-seaters - perhaps inspired by their Fouga Magisters - and SABCA or Avions Fairey produced the forward fuselages for their Hunter trainers?
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3027 on: July 31, 2022, 05:16:40 AM »
The canopy on a NAA TF-86 would be a good example
« Last Edit: July 31, 2022, 05:19:13 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3028 on: August 10, 2022, 03:58:56 AM »
I've posted a query in the Centurion inspiration thread:
https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=178.msg200400#msg200400

Teledyne Vehicle Systems (now General Dynamics Land Systems) proposed a Centurion update which included Teledyne's Low-Profile Turret (LPT), a hull armour package, and the TCM (Teledyne Continental Motors) AVDS-1790-2A diesel (in place of the original gasoline RR Meteor). Some sources claim that this update package was pitched to Canada.

The problem is: By the time this proposal existed, Canada's Centurions had all been replaced in service by Leopard C1s. Fortunately, in whif-world, not making any sense ceases to a major limiting factor! By good fortune, the opening of a Low Profile Turret wormhole has allowed me to push the LPT proposal back by almost a decade  :smiley:

In this back-dated scenario, Canada accepts the LPT proposal but not the armour upgrade nor the US engine. (The up-armouring was thought unnecessary because Canadian Army Centurions LPTs were primarily intended for hull-down operation - following the British tactical concept for the Chieftain.) For a new powerplant, a West German diesel with some commonality with the new Leopard C1 was preferred. As such, the 660 hp MTU MB 837 Ba-500 was chosen to power the rebuilt Centurions. This was a 29.4 litre multi-fuel V-8 mated with a Renk HSWL 123 6-speed gearbox. [1]

Top Centurion LPT prototype - standard Canadian Centurion 10 hull powered by a 650 hp Rolls-Royce (Rover) Meteor 27 litre V-12 gasoline engine. A turret ring adaptor plate has been installed for the 'Low-Profile Turret'. The prototype was armed with a US M68A4 105 mm gun sporting a distinctive multi-baffle muzzle brake.

No markings were carried by the LPT prototype other than a Canadian flag on the aft side of the turret and a subtle Teledyne logo on the centre turret side (the actual LPT being on loan from Teledyne for the duration of Canadian Forces trials).

Bottom Centurion C.20 - the initial 'production' conversion Centurion fitted with the LPT and powered by a MTU MB 837 V-8 with a new Renk transmission. This tank has been newly delivered to CFB Lahr for Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) - which formed a part of 4 CMBG.

A number of detail difference can be seen when compared with the Centurion LPT prototype. Most importantly, the main gun has been changed to a Royal Ordnance L7 piece (out of stores, having been removed from Centurion C.10s). These guns have been fitted with a muzzle reference sensor system - as revealed by the collimator mounted near the end of the barrel.

For close-in self-defence, the Centurion C.20 was also armed with a 12.7 mm Browning heavy machine gun on a flexible mount. Early vehicles also features rectangular rubber side skirt extensions to help control dust while on the move. These 'straight' skirt extensions would later be replaced by a 'scalloped' design less prone to damage.

(To be continued ...)

______________________________

[1] This engine and transmission package was all but identical to that in Bundeswehr tank destroyers.
You better stock up on water, canned goods off the shelves
And loot some for the old folks who can't loot for themselves
The doorbell's ringing, could be the elves
But it's probably the werewolf, it's quarter to twelve
And when it's midnight, ... the wolf bites

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3029 on: August 11, 2022, 12:53:56 AM »
Looking good.  See my answer in the other thread too.  That said, I tend to suspect a updated Canadian Centurion might have been more along the lines of the Stridsvagn 104:



Of course, another option might be for this to be done to the Australian Centurions... ;)
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3030 on: August 11, 2022, 02:13:48 AM »
... Of course, another option might be for this to be done to the Australian Centurions... ;)

Interesting that you should mention Australian Centurion ...  ;)
_______________________________________________

Top Centurion 'AS22' - An unofficial designation for a Centurion LPT demonstrator trialled in Australian by 1 Armoured Regiment in the early 1980s. This vehicle mounted a MAG58 GPMG for self-defence (rather than a 50-calibre Browning) and its experimental (and easily damaged) fabric side skirts were soon removed. Initial trials at Puckapunyal were basically successful but the lack of adequate air conditioning became very apparent once the test vehicle re-deployed with the 2nd Cavalry Regiment at the Mount Bundey Training Area in Northern Territory.

The Australian Defence Force was already preparing to receive Leopard AS1 tanks and had no real interest in the Centurion. Instead, the ADF was gauging the potential of the Low Profile Turret for the Leopard hull. The object was to determine whether such a hybrid had any potential as a recce or  surveillance vehicle to re-equip 2 Cav in Darwin. Lack of air conditioning in the 'sweatbox' might have been easily addressed. However, the key concern was over the severely limited number of ready rounds in the ammunition carousel.

Bottom Centurion C.26 - DFSV (Direct Fire Support Vehicle) variant mounting a Bofors 57 mm LPT gun. This automatic cannon was very similar to the Bofors 57 mm L/70 Mk 3 arming Canadian Navy Halifax class frigates. Outwardly, the Teledyne LPT looked very similar, inwardly it was specifically adapted for the 57 mm L/70 gun and its ammunition. [1]

The vehicle shown is one of the last serving Centurion variants in Canadian service. By the time of the CF deployment to Kandahar, all Centurion C.23 tanks had been replaced by Leopard 2A6Ms. But DND's Multi-Mission Effects Vehicle (MMEV) programme had fallen seriously behind schedule. As a result, the Centurion C.26 was the only DFSV type available for deployment. Lack of preparedness was partly revealed by the 'bum bustle' surrounding a tacked-on air conditioning unit. More anti-RPG 'fencing' shielded the base of the LPT itself.

Another 'Kandahar mod' was the fitting of a 'rooftop' Protected Weapon Station armed with a C6 GPMG. [2] Here that PWS is being used to 'check 6' - that weapon system's optics being superior to the C.26's rear vision cameras. This vehicle

As the Canadian Force prepared for their withdrawl from Afghanistan, vehicle training for Afghan National Army crews began on the DFSV Centurions at Camp Nathan Smith. Upon withdrawl, the ANA commenced operational use of the Centurion C.26s. Although left with considerable stocks of spares, C.26 servicability was poor in ANA service and the Afghan Centurions were idle by mid-2016.

With the end of Canadian Forces operations in Afghanistan, this last CF Centurion variant was finally retired. However, the 57 mm LPTs were refurbished and updated by BAE Systems to arm the LAV-MGS (Mobile Gun Systems) - part of DND's MMEV (Multi-Mission Effects Vehicle) system. A heavier, anti-tank variant was also proposed within the MMEV scheme. This concept was not realized. Instead, the rebuilt 105 mm L7 LPTs were installed on the new CCV-MGS (Close Combat Vehicle) based on the Swedish CV90 hull.

______________________________

[1] The Bofors L/70 gun's smaller rounds - 57 438 mm R versus 105 617 R for the tank gun - allowed a larger ammunition carousel (carrying 15 ready rounds instead of only nine).

[2] C6 GPMG is the Canadian designation for the FN MAG 58. The PWS was a Canadian-built version of the Israeli Rafael Mini-Samson remote weapon system. Later the PWS would be classed under the US Joint Army-Navy Nomenclature System as the AN/MWG 505 RWS.
You better stock up on water, canned goods off the shelves
And loot some for the old folks who can't loot for themselves
The doorbell's ringing, could be the elves
But it's probably the werewolf, it's quarter to twelve
And when it's midnight, ... the wolf bites

Offline raafif

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3031 on: Today at 06:45:18 AM »
Excellent Cent / Teledyne Low-Profile Turret (LPT) :smiley:

Rather like my Abrams LPT.
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg25679#msg25679