What about Australia and/or New Zealand having some and using them in Vietnam?
What about Australia and/or New Zealand having some and using them in Vietnam?
The Australian Army was heavily wedded to the M113 FOV which is why they'd decided to retire all their wheeled AFVs in the early 1960s. I suspect the Saladin might have been a bit of a surprise to the NLF the first time they encountered them but their role would have been rather limited because of their lack of off-road mobility in either the dense jungle or the open paddy fields characteristic of the coastal plains of South Vietnam.
To begin with, what about one with the turret and 30 mm L21 RARDEN cannon from the FV721 Fox:
My understanding is the Saladins and Saracens were in service into the 70s, possibly late 70's when sufficient M-113s became available to re-equip the CMF / Reserves so it is conceivable that had Australia increased their contribution, say adding CMF Cavalry Troops as force protection assets, in a similar manner to how we used ASLAVs in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The Saladin Armoured Car was introduced into the 4th/19th Prince of Wales Light Horse during the period 1965 – 1966. This vehicle offered greater firepower and mobility than had been previously provided by the Staghound Armoured Car and was effective in its reconnaissance role
The Saladin was supplied in small numbers to the Australian Army in the early 1960's, and were used only in the training role. In 1969-70 all 15 vehicles had their Turrets removed and these were fitted to the M113A1 Fire Support Vehicle - eight of which saw service with the RAAC in South Vietnam in 1971
Numerous Saladin are surviving in Australia, one example is on display at the RAAC Memorial and Tank Museum Puckapunyal Vic.[ and another complete operational, privately owned ex-British Saladin exists in the lower Blue Mountains 40 miles West of Sydney. Many ex-Australian Army Saladin remain turretless because of the fitting of Saladin turrets on M113 carriers to make the Fire Support Vehicle (M113-A1 FSV) used in the Vietnam conflict.
The vehicle on display at the Tank Museum Puckapunyal Vic is one of the 15 operated by the Australian Army. Its Turret was removed in 1969-70 for fitting to the M113A1 FSV and the vehicle was taken out of service. Following the withdrawal from service of the M113A1 FSVs, six were sold to New Zealand without their Saladin Turrets. One of these Turrets was obtained by the Museum and refitted to the Saladin's hull.
I'm pretty sure the Saladin could take a way bigger gun, given the gun:weight ratios of some of the French armoured cars. The GIAT 90mm medium velocity gun from the AML-90 should be a shoe-in, as should the Belgian Cockerill. Another interesting one would be the Israeli 60mm HVMS gun as used in Chilean Shermans, Chaffees and Piranhas.
The other obvious mod would be a modern diesel engine, in fact I think I'm right in saying such a conversion was available.
Saladin Repower
In 1991, it was announced that A F Budge Limited and Alvis Vehicles Limited had developed a repower package for the Saladin armoured car. The existing petrol engine is replaced by a Perkins 180 MTi diesel developing 180 hp.
Additional improvements have been made to the chassis including a modern cooling pack, a new electrical system, upgraded brakes, a fire suppression system and the replacement of the original transmission with a more modern automatic transmission.
The diesel installation requires only minor changes to the engine compartment and offers the advantages of improved reliability and simplified maintenance, lower fuel consumption, increased operational range and reduced risk of fire.
This conversion package has already been trialled in Asia together with an upgraded Saracen (6 x 6) armoured personnel carrier, while the Alvis Stalwart with the same has been evaluated by the UK.
In May 1994, Alvis Vehicles announced that it had been awarded a contract worth US$10 million for the supply of upgrade kits for Saladin, Saracen and Ferret vehicles from an undisclosed country in Asia, believed to be Indonesia.
To begin with, what about one with the turret and 30 mm L21 RARDEN cannon from the FV721 Fox:
If you offer up a Scorpion/Scimitar/Fox turret to a Saladin hull it looks lost: just too small. However putting a RARDEN into the original Saladin turret would be perfectly feasible and make a lot of sense, since the Fox turned out to have some mobility issues due to being too top heavy.
The Airfix 1/76th Scorpion kit comes with an optional RARDEN too, so it would be really easy to do this with the ex-JB Saladin.
What about Australia and/or New Zealand having some and using them in Vietnam?
The Australian Army was heavily wedded to the M113 FOV which is why they'd decided to retire all their wheeled AFVs in the early 1960s. I suspect the Saladin might have been a bit of a surprise to the NLF the first time they encountered them but their role would have been rather limited because of their lack of off-road mobility in either the dense jungle or the open paddy fields characteristic of the coastal plains of South Vietnam.
Not sure if the Aussies had to do it, but how about for "road-runner" ops protecting supply convoys? Getting a 76mm cannister round back your way can radically alter your plans for the ambush...
To begin with, what about one with the turret and 30 mm L21 RARDEN cannon from the FV721 Fox:
If you offer up a Scorpion/Scimitar/Fox turret to a Saladin hull it looks lost: just too small. However putting a RARDEN into the original Saladin turret would be perfectly feasible and make a lot of sense, since the Fox turned out to have some mobility issues due to being too top heavy.
The Airfix 1/76th Scorpion kit comes with an optional RARDEN too, so it would be really easy to do this with the ex-JB Saladin.
I think the top=heaviness of the Fox had a lot to do with the size and weight of the turret compared to the hull. Putting a tiny Fox turret on a massive Saladin hull should fix that quite handily. Putting a 30mm into replace the 76mm suffers from a rather obvious problem in that while the armour penetration may marginally improve with the 30mm, you lose the ability to throw a handy HE, Smoke or SPLINTEX round. Having observed the effect in particular of the latter on an earth bund at a firepower demonstration, I'll just say I'm glad it wasn't me who was the target.
What about Australia and/or New Zealand having some and using them in Vietnam?
The Australian Army was heavily wedded to the M113 FOV which is why they'd decided to retire all their wheeled AFVs in the early 1960s. I suspect the Saladin might have been a bit of a surprise to the NLF the first time they encountered them but their role would have been rather limited because of their lack of off-road mobility in either the dense jungle or the open paddy fields characteristic of the coastal plains of South Vietnam.
Not sure if the Aussies had to do it, but how about for "road-runner" ops protecting supply convoys? Getting a 76mm cannister round back your way can radically alter your plans for the ambush...
If you find the ambushers before they spring their ambush. The M113 FSVs were apparently often used for "road-runner" ops in South Vietnam and their presence was sufficient to scare the ambushers off attacking the convoys. The clear difference between the FSV and the Saladin though was that the FSV could go off-road whereas the Saladin might not be able to because of the soft soil/mud present in the Paddy fields/Jungle along the roads. I'd suggest that the Saladin was an excellent vehicle for it's day but one which wasn't well suited to where we were fighting.
There was a Ferret turret with four elevating Swingfires, but it was only a one-manner with a 7.62mm for backup. RARDENs have been put into one-man turrets, but since it's a clip-feed job there's still a manual 'loader' task to perform.
Wonder what the Delco turret with a 25mm bushmaster + 2 x TOWs would look like on it?
The problem with using any traditional armoured car for ATGWs is space for reloads. An APC hull has the volume to carry many more.
An interesting option would be a refit by some country with Warsaw Pact support: AT-3 Sagger rail on the turret roof, or maybe two on the bacik of the turret?
Did anyone ever put a RARDEN on a Saladin? I know we've talked about it earlier in this thread, but that always seemed like an idea with some potential to me.
Thanks,
Logan
Is that top black and white one a TEL for a Blue Water?
A number of the old blokes in my reserve unit came up through Saracens and according to them they were pigs to drive (makes you wonder what the Humber Pig was like?). I also recall hearing the Stalwart suffered durability issues in addition to being difficult to drive, this may be why there weren't too many upgrades for the types.
How about a tank destroyer version with a 77mm HV or even a Molins Gun?
I bet you could even do a sharp Operation Granby one with a big Union Jack flying from it or something.
32 yrs… :o. Great, now I feel old. :