Author Topic: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Type 42 Batch IV destroyer  (Read 13470 times)

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
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Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Type 42 Batch IV destroyer
« on: May 02, 2014, 03:44:14 AM »
Okay, first off, here's a little tale for context which I first posted on the Aircraft Carrier Ideas thread.

The Royal Canadian Navy plays it British.

1. I'm not suggesting that this is a good idea, or an improvement on reality, it's just an interesting one that generates plenty of easy what if modelling opportunities while keeping at least within sight of realistic budgets.

2. I have no real handle on RCN naming policy, so feel free to suggest better alternatives.

3. British export aircraft would probably have Mark Numbers rather than UK letter codes, but I've used the latter to make the equipment standard clear.


1950s

HMCS Bonaventure commissions with a mixed strike/ASW air group as follows:

Air Group (all new)
Fighter/bomber : Sea Hawk
All-weather fighter : Sea Venom
ASW : Gannet AS.1
SAR/plane guard : Whirlwind


1960s

The decision is made that Bonaventure's future role will be as a North Atlantic ASW helo carrier with a small fighter detachment for scaring off Bears. There's some debate about whether to keep the Sea Hawks (fewer aircrew) or the Sea Venoms (radar) but the latter's all-weather capability wins. Bonnie serves in this configuration until 1971, by which time the Sea Venoms are looking a bit desperate.

Air Group
All-weather fighter : Sea Venom (refurbished, with Sidewinder capability)
AEW : Gannet AEW.3 (new)
ASW/SAR : Wessex HAS.1 (new)


1970s

Canada snaps up the option to buy HMS Centaur when she decommissions from the RN in 1966. A re-fit to a similar standard to HMS Hermes takes five years, at which point she commissions as HMCS Canada, replacing Bonaventure. A notable feature of the design is two Canadian Sea Sparrow launchers which extend from deck houses on the aft sponsons.

Her role is still primarily ASW so the air group is mostly new Westland Sea Kings, and since the FAA is disposing of it's Sea Vixens, the RCN is able to buy half of the FAA fleet as it's "Bear-scarers" at fire-sale prices. Most of these are RTP'd for spares to support an active fleet of about 18 aircraft, which is far more than Canada ever carries at one time. However there are no Red Tops AAMs available for them since the UK is keeping them all for the Lightning force, so the 18 active Sea Vixens are refitted by Canadair with AN/APQ-120 (F-4E) radars, and Sparrow/Sidewinder capability.

Air Group
All-weather fighter : Sea Vixen (refurbished, with Sparrow/Sidewinder capability)
AEW : Gannet AEW.3 (refurbished)
ASW/SAR : Sea King HAS.2 (new)


1980s

Although not initially impressed with the Harrier carrier concept, the Falklands War makes believers of the RCN. Unfortunately, the only immediately available Harrier carrier, HMS Invincible, is already spoken for by the RAN and the RN isn't going to pay for a fifth ship to make HMS Illustrious available any time soon. The RCN therefore elects to re-fit Canada with a ski-jump along the same lines as Hermes, as a stop-gap while a new vessel is bought. In this form, she re-enters service in about 1984.

Air Group
All-weather fighter : Sea Harrier FRS.1 (new)
AEW : Sea King AEW.5 (new)
ASW/SAR : Sea King HAS.5 (re-built from HAS.2s)


1990s

With no option of getting a new, or at least young, Harrier carrier from Britain in an acceptable time-frame, the RCN turns to America and orders a Gibbs & Cox Sea Control Ship in the mid-'80s, which is similar in design to Spain's Principe de Asturias but slightly larger. Armament is 2 x 8-cell Mk.48 VLS Sea Sparrow launchers and 4 x Vulcan Phalanx guns. With the end of the Cold War, there's much debate about cancelling the project, but she eventually commissions as HMCS Rainbow, although any hope of buying new Sea Harrier F/A.2s for her is dashed by budget cuts.

Air Group
All-weather fighter : Sea Harrier FRS.1 (refurbished with FAA mods)
AEW : Sea King AEW.5
ASW/SAR : Sea King HAS.6 (re-built from HAS.5s)


2000s

Rather than give them a life extension, Rainbow's Sea Harriers are retired in 2005 to save money and sold to India, Rainbow then becoming a pure helo carrier. Current plans are to follow the international fashion and replace her with a 20-knot, multi-purpose LPHA with a docking well, full-length  flight-deck and ski-jump for optional F-35s, however these plans are currently stalled in budget/program/political issues.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 05:35:25 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

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Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2014, 04:17:59 AM »

So then I got to thinking about escorts for HMCS Canada. The RCN didn't have any area air defence ships until the TRUMP mods to the Tribals in the 1990s, so any DDG for them in the early 1970s would certainly be a significant What If. Probably the sensible thing to do would be to follow Australia's example and order a couple of Charles F. Adams class DDGs from America while they're still available (last one delivered to Germany in 1970). Indeed, since this is a well developed, in-production design, it might be possible to afford three ships rather than two.

However, the C.F.Adams is the boring, sensible option, and Canada's always gone it's own way in ship design, so the next sensible option would be to extend the new Tribal class DDH program to another couple of hulls, outfitted as DDGs, so here we go, the DDG-284 Haida class destroyer:


(Modified from profiles and data from www.shipbucket.com)

Two ships would be built: DDG-284 Micmac and DDG-285 Nootka. They're considered a sub-class of the Tribals, so they have First Nation names, the previous holders of these two (Type 15 ASW frigates) having been retired in the mid 1960s.

(Name changed on advice from Apophenia - many thanks).


I looked at lots of different ways of doing this, but eventually plumped for the option that gave the fewest possible changes from the Iroquois class, since it's probably not a good idea to incur too much in the way of design and tooling costs for a class of two ships. So, with the exception of the gun, the whole front end of the ship, back to and including the powerplant, is identical to an Iroquois, and the hull is identical too.

Working from front to back:

The 127mm gun is replaced by a 76mm Compact mount, mainly in order to save topweight and create space. These ships are dedicated AAW escorts for the carrier, so they're never likely to be risked on gunfire support missions, and the 76mm can make a better contribution to air defence, controlled by the same Signaal WM-22s that control the Canadian Sea Sparrows.

In the Iroquois, the cruise engines exhaust through a third funnel on the centreline, immediately aft of the more visible Y-funnel. This makes perfect sense if you want to wrap two huge helo hangars around it, but not so much if you're trying to make space on the centreline for extra radars. I did consider replacing the cruise engines with diesels and turning the funnel into a radar-carrying mack, but that would probably mean a major redesign of the engine room and gearboxes, so instead, I opted for trunking the cruise engines into enlarged Y-funnels (dimensions checked against the Dutch Tromps, which had a similar arrangement).

Aft of the funnel, everything changes. The hangars are replaced by a long narrow structure supporting an SPS-52 3-D airsearch radar and two SPG-51 fire control radars. Behind this is the Mk.13 GMLS in a raised, circular structure. I appreciate that it still penetrates one deck down into the ship, which will need some re-arrangement of spaces, but bear in mid that the Limbo mortar pit is not only plated over but has an extended deckhouse above it, so I think this should be possible.

Aft of the Mk.13 is a heli-deck which extends almost to the stern. I think it leaves enough clearance right at the stern to still fit the VDS handing gear, but I'm not 100% on that. The ship doesn't carry it's own helo since it's job is to spend all it's time with the carrier that carries lots, but it would still be useful to be able to land and refuel the carrier's helos, and since the RCN only operates the big Sea King, the helideck still has to be pretty big. I was torn about whether to go for the helideck or an ASROC launcher for close-in ASW defence, and if I'd allowed myself a stretched hull, that would be the first thing on the additions list.

I've presumed that the Mk.13 would displace a torpedo handing room on 1 deck, so I've moved the tubes forwards and upwards to a position where they can be easily accessed by the same crew that would be loading them onto helos.

Comments and contructive criticism welcome.

« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 04:54:03 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline apophenia

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Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canadian Haida class DDG
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2014, 05:55:33 AM »
Weaver: Great concept on the earlier Iroquois-derived AAD ships (and moving to the OTO 76mm anticipates the RW TRUMP upgrades).

A minor point on Canadian namings, a two warships sub-class both named after West Coast nations seems unlikely. Since the original HMCS Haida survives, perhaps DDG-284 Micmac (after the first of the earlier Tribals) and DDG-285 Nootka?
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline Weaver

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Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canadian Haida class DDG
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2014, 08:33:30 AM »
I was dreaming up various unaffordable "super" versions of the Micmac, but then I noticed something while reading about Type 42 destroyers:

                                      Batch 1&2           Batch 3          Iroquois
               Length (ft) :     412                    463                426     
                Beam (ft) :      47                      49                 50
Length to Beam ratio :     8.7                     9.4                 8.5
 Displacement (tons) :     4100                   4675              4700     
             Speed (kts) :      29                      31                 29


Note that, compared to the Type 42 Batch 1&2, the stretched Batch 3 got roughly 50ft longer, 2ft wider and 500 tons heavier, yet still went 2 knots faster with the same powerplant. Shows what length to beam ratio can do, doesn't it? Now look how short and fat the Iroquois is: I reckon that with the same beam, it could stand a 44 ft stretch and probably make 30 knots... :thumbsup:

So I started playing and came up with this:


(Modified from profiles and data from www.shipbucket.com)

The stretch is a conservative 30ft and all in front of the bridge, just as per the Type 42s, to avoid any major changes to the powerplant. Result : I've got my ASROC box! I fitted it by moving the Canadian Sea Sparrow deckhouse forwards in order offer the Mk.112 ASROC launcher some weather/spray protection since I understand it's a bit fragile. As a bonus, the Sea Sparrow launcher got another eight rounds too.

Apophenia : point taken about naming, but I've seen it just too late for this profile. I'll sort it out in the next revision. Cheers!  :)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 05:02:24 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline apophenia

  • Perversely enjoys removing backgrounds.
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Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canadian Haida class DDG
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2014, 09:17:28 AM »
Weaver: I doubt anyone will notice the geography behind those First Nations names anyway.  ;)  Keep goin'  :)
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canadian Haida class DDG
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2014, 07:38:57 PM »
Weren't the Tribals originally a cut and bob tied version of a cancelled Canadian DDG?

Offline RP1

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Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canadian Haida class DDG
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2014, 10:15:56 PM »
Quote
Weren't the Tribals originally a cut and bob tied version of a cancelled Canadian DDG?


The original design for the Tribals carried Tartar with two illuminators aft, an ASW mortar on the stern and a 5-inch forward, on a flush decked hull.

There is a picture here:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1616.msg13505.html#msg13505

And it is mentioned in Conways, which says that the dimensions didn't change.

RP1

Offline RP1

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Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canadian Haida class DDG
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2014, 10:21:01 PM »
Regarding the OP; a quite reasonable modification, I think. I have two versions of the GA (as built and refit) as they weren't classified but by bad luck they are both boxed up for an office move so I can't check the details!

I'm not sure about the ASROC fit, though - the magazine and reloader would be quite big and I think the crew might have to increase. This plus the hull extension would  make it a very significant variant - still possible, though.

RP1

Offline Weaver

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Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canadian Micmac class DDG
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2014, 05:09:12 AM »
Okay, names changed as per Apo's suggestion and image sizes revised so they display in full shipbucket scale.

More to come - say tuned!  ;)


Regarding the OP; a quite reasonable modification, I think. I have two versions of the GA (as built and refit) as they weren't classified but by bad luck they are both boxed up for an office move so I can't check the details!

I'm not sure about the ASROC fit, though - the magazine and reloader would be quite big and I think the crew might have to increase. This plus the hull extension would  make it a very significant variant - still possible, though.

RP1

I agree it would be a significant mod, but by analogy with the Type 42s, by no means unaffordable or undoable. There's no reloader for the ASROC: 8 rounds is all you get, as in many US ships. The deckhouse in front of it is purely the original CAN Sea Sparrow setup, moved forwards and slightly increased in size to hold 40 rounds rather than 32.

The longer hull should make enough space for the extra crew for the ASROC. Also, don't forget that in both variants, there's no flight crew, only a few multi-taskers to refuel the occasional helo, and a much smaller gun crew. That should about compensate for the extra weapons and sensors.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canadian Micmac class DDG
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2014, 11:10:56 AM »
Off on a tangent.....

Canada Goes Dutch

The entry into service of the carrier HMCS Canada (ex HMS Centaur) in the early 1970s was welcomed with relief by the Royal Canadian Navy who feared that Canada had been about to follow the example of the Netherlands, which had just given up carrier aviation entirely, selling it's only vessel, the Karel Doorman to Argentina. However, the carrier was judged to need escorts with area-defence SAM capability, and since the RCN possessed no such vessels, this created another demand on an already stretched budget.

A purchase of American Charles F. Adams class destroyers was considered but rejected after protestations from the Canadian shipbuilding industry and the RCN, who always favoured designs specially tailored to the harsh northern waters where they operated. The preferred scheme therefore  was for an AAW version of the new DD-280 Iroquois class frigates, which would trade their helicopter capability for a Mk.13 Standard SM-1 launcher and it's associated radars. Two proposals were studied, one based on the existing hull and one on a stretched version which allowed the addition of an ASROC ASW rocket launcher. The latter scheme was selected and detail design work began. However, projected costs began to rise, reducing the number of ships that could be afforded from four to three and then two, and then new government cancelled the scheme completely after after a considerable amount of time and money had been invested in it.

Since starting again would cost even more money, a foreign purchase was seen as the only option, but unfortunately, production of the Charles F. Adams class had ceased in the meantime. The forthcoming British Type-42 destroyers were considered, but the RCN preferred Standard to Sea Dart, so that left the Netherlands' Tromp class as the only option, and one that the admirals were actually quite keen on since they'd been interested in it's SPS-01 (aka Broomstick) since it's inception in the mid 1960s. However the shipbuilding industry and various politicians protested a foreign purchase so the matter became deadlocked.

The solution to the problem came from the Royal Netherlands Navy (KM: Koninklijke Marine) themselves. Exactly who said what to whom has become the stuff of tall tales and jokes. The standard “urban legend” is that the idea was dreamed up by two naval attachés at an embassy cocktail party, but the respective defence ministers recollect a more formal process (it's been suggested that the cocktail party story is put about by naval attachés to justify embassy cocktail parties...). Whatever the process, it became clear that just as the RCN was looking covetously at the Tromps, so the KM was looking with equal interest at the  DD-280s and a deal was there to be made.

Dutch Navy interest in the DD-280 stemmed from the loss of the Karel Doorman a few year's earlier. Officially, her Tracker and S-58 ASW aircraft had been replaced by small helicopters on frigates and land-based patrol aircraft, but many in the KM felt that these were no substitute for large capable aircraft at sea with the fleet, and felt that the innovative Canadian Iroquois (and the Japanese Harunas) might represent an affordable way of getting at least some of this capability back.

The deal was straight-forward in principle: the Netherlands would build two Tromps for Canada and Canada would build two DD-280s for the Netherlands. Although a Tromp was substantially more expensive than a DD-280, the provision of the latter's CH-124 Sea King helicopters as part of the deal, coupled with the fact that the Canadian Tromps would have no helicopter provision, more than compensated for the difference in the price of the hulls.

The Dutch Iroquois

Adapting the DD-280 design to the KM's requirements was relatively painless, although some problems became apparent later.

The main visual difference was to the weapons in the forward positions on ship. The KM requested that the ships be fitted with the same Bofors twin 120mm turrets as the Tromp, both for logistic compatibility and because these turrets were basically free, having been taken from old Holland class destroyers before they were scrapped. The Dutch also insisted that a NATO Sea Sparrow launcher (then very new) was fitted instead of the Canadian Sea Sparrow launcher in the original design. Canadian industry was somewhat put out by this, since they'd assumed the Dutch would take their system, but the KM couldn't be moved, so the launcher was installed on a new deck house which also included a manually operated reloading magazine just behind it.





Other disputes arose. The Dutch insisted that a single WM-22 tracker on a low pedestal would be sufficient, although their Canadian counterparts were more than a little smug when, just as they predicted, it suffered from excessive interference and had to be raised on a hastily schemed lattice mast. Another ridiculous “issue” concerned the ships' boats. The Iroquois had a very restricted area of deck, between the hangar and the bridge structure, in which to accommodate them, but the standard KM ship's boat was bigger than the standard RCN one: it only fitted with nine inches to spare at each end (which would have made boat handling fun in any kind of seaway), but even then, it wasn't centred on the standard davits. The obvious solution was for the KM to buy the Canadian boats, but the Dutch ones were nicer, admirals grumbled, and no less than seven engineering studies for the redesign of the boat deck had been launched before heads were banged together and the Canadian boats selected (allegedly, the Dutch defence minister told the admirals to buy the Canadian boats or swim). The admirals retaliated by redesigning the boats “to Dutch standards” which appeared to achieve little except to double their price.

Internally, the main change was to fit the Dutch SEWACO combat information system in place of the original CC280. This was the point where everyone had expected trouble but, perhaps precisely because of that, it went surprisingly smoothly, aided by the fact that SEWACO had been designed to be modular from the start and none of the weapons or sensors were unfamiliar to it. One surprising non-change was the decision to keep the original Pratt and Whitney engines. It had been thought that the Dutch would insist on the same Tyne/Olympus setup as the Tromps and the projected Kortenaers, and modification schemes had been drawn up, but these were the early days of gas turbines in ships and the KM was keen to test and evaluate all the alternatives, so the original power plant stayed.

The two ships were termed “helicopter frigates” (FFH) by the KM, and named Callenburg and Van Kinsbergen after Dutch admirals. Some juggling of names and pennant numbers was necessary since these names had already been tentatively assigned to future Kortenaers. In service, the ships fulfilled their goal of reintroducing large ASW helicopters to the KM and were judged an overall success. Their seakeeping proved less satisfactory however. The main problem was that the changes to the armament had added considerable weight, all at the front, and this caused them to trim by the bow and “dig in” in heavy seas. Indeed, although the KM considered the  Limbo mortar obsolete, it was retained on the ships because to remove it would only have made the situation worse (sailors took to calling it “gyro-stabilised ballast”). This was largely cured in mid-1980s refits when the 120mm guns were removed and replaced with much lighter OTO-Melara 76mm Compact mounts. The other problem was excessive rolling, and there was no easy solution for this, since it appeared endemic to the design, the Canadian vessels suffering from it as well.

The plan was for the KM of the 1980s to be organised into three ASW task groups, each with an FFG, an FFH, six FFs and a replenishment ship. However only the FFs (Kortenaers and Van Speijks) achieved the necessary numbers, the requirement for a “third Tromp” being met by the two modified Kortenaers of the Van Heemskerk class. The Canadian deal had included the option for each nation to buy a third ship, but the Netherlands decided not to take up this option, and elected instead to build two larger FFHs (De Zeven Provinciën class) based on their experience with the Callenburgs, but with three helicopters each and many other improvements. The original intention was that the two Callenburgs would thereafter operate together as the “third helicopter frigate”, but before this could happen, they were decommissioned and scrapped in the mid 1990s as part of the KM's severe post-Cold War contraction.


The Canadian Tromps

Adapting the Dutch ships to RCN requirements proved a good deal more troublesome and problems with the combat data system nearly scuppered the project.

For the forward weapons, the RCN requested the opposite changes to the KM, i.e. an OTO-Melara 127mm gun in place of the Bofors 120s, Canadian Sea Sparrow and twin WM-22s. Since these weapons were lighter than the systems they replaced, this didn't cause any great problem. At the stern, the RCN required a helicopter pad large enough to land a Sea King, and since extending the hull was out of the question and there was no way to modify the hanger to accept one, the hanger was deleted entirely, which saved more weight. This left the chaff launchers without a home, but with all the topweight that had been saved, it was possible to accomodate them on new 01 deck platforms over the torpedo tubes.   





One of the RCN's main objections to the Tromp design was that that, unlike Canadian-designed ships, the forward superstructure didn't extend to the edge of the deck, thus offering weather and spray protection to the area behind it. To address this, the Tromp's bridge platform shields were extended right down to weather deck level, which was deemed adequate, if not ideal. Many other detailed changes were also made to the superstructure, since Canadian requirements for anti-fallout protection were more stringent. The most noticeable external effect of this was the elimination of all portholes.

Internally, the Canadians decided to follw the KM's example and accept the standard Olympus/Tyne  powerplant for the sake of evaluting alternatives. The major difficulty that arose however, was with the combat information system. The Canadian government, under pressure from it's electronics industry, insisted on trying to replace the Dutch SEWACO system with an extension of the CC280 system, but since this had never been designed to work with either the SPS-01 radar or the Standard missile system, it represented a high-risk developmental item, and ran into severe problems. The projected cost increases and delays came close to causing the cancellation of the entire project. However, common sense and some tough political deal making eventually won through, and the Canadian system was abandoned in favor of a slightly adapted version of SEWACO, the Canadian electronics contractors being compensated by guarantees of other work from both governments.

Although classified as frigates by the KM, Canada termed the ships Guided Missile Destroyers (DDGs), which was more in line with standard NATO definitions and RCN practice. The two ships were named Nootka and Micmac, continuing the use of First Nation names in the “Tribal” series. The ships proved hugely popular in service, the RCN feeling that it had, at last, a properly balanced and capable fleet. There was considerable enthusiasm in the service for the idea of buying a third vessel to provide air defence for the Pacific fleet, but the defence budget had already been stretched near to breaking point to pay for the carrier and it's two escorts, and other arms, particularly the Royal Canadian Air Force, objected strongly to any more money being spent on the navy until their own re-equipment projects had been funded.

When HMCS Canada, now a V/STOL carrier, was replaced by the new-build HMCS Rainbow in the early 1990s, the RCN pressed for new DDGs to escort her, since the Nootkas, with their non-VLS missiles and non-phased array radars, were starting to look distinctly old-fashioned. However, the pressure for a “peace dividend” in the post-Cold War era  meant that the carrier herself had only just managed to get funded, so there was certainly no budget for new ships. Nootka and Micmac were therefore given extensive upgrades with new radars and VLS systems, and remain in service today. The current intention is to replace both the Nootkas and the Halifax class frigates with a New Common Surface Combatant, but to date this remains unfunded.

Note – profiles of updated ships may appear in due course.....
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 04:02:36 PM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline lauhof52

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Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canada goes Dutch
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2014, 01:27:42 PM »
 :) :)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canada goes Dutch
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2014, 08:47:34 PM »
Top stuff  ;)

Offline Weaver

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Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canada goes Dutch
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2016, 06:34:33 AM »
It strikes me that I havn't updated this thread with all the stuff I've posted on WIM, so stay tuned....
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canada goes Dutch
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2016, 06:39:58 AM »
ETPS Gripen. ETPS uses leased Gripens for real, but they send pilots to Sweden to fly them and they're in near-standard Flygvapnet colours. What if they were based in the UK instead and wore the Raspberry Ripple scheme?

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canada goes Dutch
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2016, 06:54:38 AM »
F-106K profiles. This is on the actual build list (Falcon vac-form conversion) so I didn't do a full backstory for them initially, but then I got inspired for the later ones.

Basically it's a joint US/UK project for RAF, from the same timeline as my 'FAA goes American' builds. To meet RAF preferences, they're based on F-106B two seaters with Bristol Olympus engines, fuel tank in place of weapons bay and pylons for four Red Top. These two profiles show the intial F.1 service version and the F.3 resulting from an upgrade in the 1970s with bigger radar, RWR and Skyflash capability.




Here's a couple of F.1s in unusual colour schemes:




And here's the 'first and last' pair that actually have a full back story around them:

Although the RAF Delta Darts (and the USAF ones for that matter) notably didn't wear low-vis schemes for most of their career, one of the oddities of the RAF programme was that low-vis schemes of a kind featured near the beginning of the story and right at the end.

The F-106K replaced the -B's weapons bay with a fixed structure that contained a large fuel tank and carried three hardpoints underneath it, the intention being to allow carriage of two Red Top AAMs or one AIR-2A Genie nuclear air-to-air rocket (although they'd fit, the aircraft couldn't carry both for C-of-G reasons). To clear this store, prototype 03 (XM788) deployed to White Sands Missile Range in 1960 for an extended series of tests intended to end with the live firing of a nuclear round. Due to concerns about the effects of the detonation on the airframe it was given an overall anti-flash white scheme similar to that applied the the RAF's V-bombers. It also carried camera-equipped drop tanks and was fitted with a pod at the top of the fin for a rear-facing camera and instruments intended to monitor the explosion as the aircraft flew away.

However, doubts had always existed about the UK's ability to generate enough weapons-grade plutonium for the Genies, and while the tests were in their early stages the requirement to carry the weapon was cancelled. However it was considered not worth the expense of changing the design of the aircraft, so all F-106Ks were built with the centreline hardpoint in place. XM788 therefore never got to fire a Genie, trials having only got as far as dropping an inert weapon, and the aircraft returned to the UK before the end of the year. It retained it's anti-flash scheme for the rest of it's career however, making an interesting contrast to G-DART's flashy "trans-Atlantic" paint job.



The RAF's Delta Darts were due to retire in the early 1980s but the unexpected requirement for more fighters after the Falklands War gave them a limited reprieve. Although the Dart fleet took no part in the conflict, it was decided that post-war defence of the islands was best achieved by basing four F.3s at Port Stanley airport until they could be replaced by Tornado ADVs. Seeing a parallel with the three Gladators which defended Malta for a period in WWII, the pilots of 1435 Flight adopted the names of those aircraft, Faith, Hope and Charity for their mounts, adding Desperation for the fourth aircraft in a wry comment on their exposed situation. All four aircraft carried a large Maltese Cross on their fin.

In the light of lessons from the recent conflict, the aircraft were given several modifications. The outboard wing pylons were fitted to carry an improvised double rail for AIM-9L Sidewinders, thereby significantly increasing the Dart's combat persistance. Pilots had complained for years about the lack of a gun, and since guns had been proven still useful by the FAA, a gun pod was hastily designed using the internals of the Hawk's 30mm ADEN pod in a new shell that attached to the centreline Genie hardpoint that had gone unused for over twenty years. Chaff/flare dispensers were fitted on the rear fuselage, and the aircraft were given a modern low-visibility paint scheme with low-contrast national markings.

Fortunately 1435 Flight never had to emulate their WWII forebears, and their Darts, the last in service anywhere in the world, were finally replaced by Tornado F.3s in 1989, by which time a substatial part of the RAF's remaining fleet had been cannibalised to keep them operational.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canada goes Dutch
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2016, 07:06:47 AM »
I did this for the COIN GB. I'd like to do it in plastic at some stage and I've got the kit set aside.


Fairey Gannet GR.7

Former AS.4 converted to a single-seat COIN type to support UK forces in Vietnam in similar roles to the USAF's Douglas Skyraiders, i.e. COIN, CSAR escort etc. A more elaborate conversion was originally planned which had two seats (involving a centre-fuselage rebuild), wing guns and tip tanks, but costs got out of control and it had to be scaled back to something more affordable.



Mods:

Second and third seats removed
(fitting an ejector seat leave insufficient room for the 2nd crewman and you can't move him back because there's a structural bulkhead and a fuel tank in the way)

Ejection seat added for pilot under new canopy

Countermeasures launchers fitted in place of the radar dome

Finlets removed from the tailplanes
(not needed since the 3rd canopy and radome are gone)

Wing folds locked for extra strength and six pylons added



The aircraft illustrated is carrying the following loadout:

4 x BL632 cluster bombs in the bomb bay (hypothetical predecessor to the BL755)

2 x 30mm ADEN gun pods on the inboard pylons

6 x 18-round 68mm Matra 155 rocket pods on the other pylons

Think that little lot should be able to put the bad guys' personal space through a dynamic change process and encourage them to re-evaluate their life-choices... ;)
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canada goes Dutch
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2016, 07:14:41 AM »
This was inspired by a discussion started by Volkodav. I orignally posted it in Stories: it's just here to keep everything together.


HMS Cumberland - Britain's first nuclear warship.

Following the successful development of a reasonably compact and navalised nuclear reactor at the Dounreay research establishment in the late 1950s, Britain's first nuclear warship, the guided missile cruiser HMS Cumberland, was laid down in 1960, and commissioned in 1963. The design of the ship differed in a number of ways from the first ever nuclear warship, the USS Long Beach. The US Navy had boldly opted for an all-nuclear power plant, but the Royal Navy decided to be more conservative, so Cumberland had a CONAS (Combined Nuclear And Steam) system, a single reactor being paired with a conventional steam plant of the same design as used in the County class destroyers being produced at the same time. The uptakes for the boilers were lead into a "mack" (combined mast and stack: a first for the Royal Navy) in order to make best use of the centreline space freed up by the lack of funnels. Another difference was the adoption of electric, rather than mechanical drive, this being chosen in order to minimise the amount of steam piping in the ship and allow the reactor to be completely isolated should it have a problem.

The comparison with the County class destroyers was important, since one of the principal roles of the new ship was to evaluate nuclear versus conventional propulsion, together with a range of other tactical and technical concepts. To this end, the ship was equipped with all the same systems as a County, but given the ship's size (more than twice the displacement of a County) she was given more or larger versions of many of them, one of the arguments of the the nuclear proponents being that the increased size and cost of nuclear ships was compensated for by their increased fighting ability. Partly to reflect this, the ship was rated as a cruiser, and given the pennant number of the previous HMS Cumberland which had been scrapped in 1958, having spent the latter part of her career, appropriately enough, as a trials ship.

As first commissioned, Cumberland had two twin 4.5" Mk.6 gun turrets in A and B positions, and a Limbo ASW mortar in a deckhouse in C position. Aft, a triple Seaslug SAM launcher and it's enormous magazine dominated the design. Cumberland's size meant that she could carry two Type 901 fire control radars for this system, so the increased beam was used to carry two hangars for Wessex ASW helicopters on either side of the radars. A pair of Seacat short-range SAM systems sat on the hangar roofs, and the final layer of defence was provided by two 20mm Oerlikon guns just behind the bridge. By contrast, the Counties had a twin Seaslug launcher with only one type 901, a single Wessex housed in a very cramped and awkward hangar and no Limbo mortar. Cumberland also carried the same enormous Type 984 3D radar as was being fitted to some, but not all, of the Royal Navy's carriers at the time, the intention being to analyse whether this unit was more effective when fitted to a carrier or one of it's escorts.



Cumberland as first commissioned. The 'empty' area amidships was for reactor access. The Limbo mortar was concealed within the deck house immediately ahead of the bridge.


HMS Cumberland spent much of the 1960s involved in trials and exercises designed to prove the safety and utility of nuclear power and was judged to be very successful in this role. However some of her technology (notably the Seaslug missile system) was regarded as dated even before she commissioned and since the various trials had confirmed the reliability and safety of nuclear power at sea, it was decided that the next class of cruisers would be built to a very different design, with all-nuclear propulsion and the much more compact and capable Sea Dart missile system. The new ships' power plants would not be British however. The Americans had convinced the UK and NATO governments of the economies of scale to be had from mass production of their D2G design, so the new Royal Navy cruisers would be based around two of these plants leaving the British surface ship reactor programme to devote all it's resources to development of the plants for the new CVAN-01 carriers, for which no appropriate US system existed. HMS Cumberland thus remained the sole example of her type.

That left the question of what to do with Cumberland. With the trials phase of her life largely over, she was refitted for fleet duties in the 1970s along the same lines as the second batch of Counties, with improved radar and fire control systems, Exocet missiles in place of the Limbo mortar, and STWS-1 torpedo tubes. Unlike the Counties however, the enormous cost of the ship made it unacceptable to government and public alike that she should be paid off early, and so, despite the obsolescence of her main weapon system, she soldiered on into the 1980s. She deployed to several trouble spots during this period, including Cyprus, the Falkland Islands and Lebanon, but of course, never fired her weapons in anger.


Cumberland as she appeared following her 1970s refit. Note the AKE-2 aerial for the Type 965 radar and the Exocet launchers on the former Limbo deck house.


When the last County was sold off the Seaslug system became impossible to support and the issue of retiring Cumberland arose again. In truth, the RN would have quite liked to retire her at this point and put the manpower to other use, but again, public opinion and government policy forbade it so another use had to be found for her. After much debate, she was refitted as a command and ASW cruiser. The Knot defence review of 1980 had cancelled plans for a third nuclear carrier and it's escorting helicopter cruiser so the argument was that refitting Cumberland would get more Sea Kings into the fleet. Sea Slug was removed and replaced with an extended flight deck, and the old Type 901 radars and hangars were replaced by an enlarged hanger for three Sea King helicopters (though she rarely operated more than two in practice). Air defence came from Sea Wolf point-defence missile launchers fitted on the hangar roof and in place of B turret, while two Vulcan Phalanx radar-directed gatling guns were fitted amidships. Radars and electronics were also given a comprehensive update.

At the time it was claimed by some commentators (and swiftly thereafter by some newspapers) that this refit was ill-conceived and half-hearted, with critics pointing to the retention of Exocet (when new-builds had moved onto Harpoon), the elderly 4.5” Mk.6 gun turret and the original sonar, and the failure to fit a towed array. In response, the RN countered that updated sonar and a towed array were rejected because the nuclear plant was inherently noisy, the ship's Sea Kings could provide long-range anti-ship fire with Sea Eagle ASMs, and with Sea Wolf and Phalanx providing more than enough air-defence, an updated gun turret would provide little real benefit for it's price.



Cumberland in her final configuration as a helicopter cruiser.


 The original intention was for Cumberland to run on into the 21st century in her new role as a CHN, thus getting the forty years of service that was felt to be acceptable given her cost. However a further refit was cancelled in the early 1990s due to post-Cold War defence spending reductions, and cracks were then found in her reactor's primary cooling circuit which would be very expensive to repair, so she was swiftly taken out of service in 1996 and unceremoniously scrapped. However even at the end of her life HMS Cumberland continued to serve, since she was was the first British nuclear warship to be decommissioned and many important lessons were learnt in the process.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 07:20:15 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canada goes Dutch
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2016, 07:30:21 AM »
And to bring things up to date, I just did this for the In The Navy GB over on WIM:


The Ultimate Type 42


Made with images and resources from www.shipbucket.com

In the aftermath of the Falklands War, the British Government was pleased by the performance of the Royal Navy (not least because the victory got them re-elected!) and agreed to an increase in naval spending to replace the capability lost with the sunken warships and implement the lessons learned. The Navy's initial plan, motivated by a desire to take advantage of this largesse as quickly as possible before it dried up, was to build an extra four of the in-production Type 22 frigate to an improved design that reflected the Falklands lessons with as little redesign and as much off-the-shelf hardware as possible. However this plan didn't survive contact with the Defence Select Committee, who pointed out that two of the lost ships had been guided missile destroyers with area-air-defence SAMs and that any replacement must therefore carry an equivalent or better system. Since buying a US system would be politically and logistically difficult and the proposed European system was still years away, the only option left on the table was Sea Dart, and since the desire to act quickly still remained, the only realistic option was to buy an improved version of the Type 42 destroyer.

The problem with that was that one of the lessons learned from the Falklands was that the Type 42 was a deeply flawed design. This had already resulted in a decision, actually taken before the war, to stretch the last four 'Batch III' ships, although this 'stretch' really only amounted to restoring the design to something like it's original form before politics had interfered in the late 1960s. If the Type 42 was to be improved, another stretch seemed the only realistic option. The Batch III stretch had lengthened the ship by 42 feet. However this wasn't in the nature of an extra 'plug' inserted in the hull, but rather a hull that was larger overall, with 2 feet of extra beam and a re-shaped stern: essentially it was a new hull designed to use as many Type 42 drawings and as much of their equipment as possible. Since the first stretch had been ahead of the bridge, in the simplest possible location, the Batch IV stretch would have to be aft, but this was by no means as simple an exercise as the earlier one.

The Batch IV hull added another 42 feet to the Type 42 hull, this time aft of the machinery spaces. Beam was increased by 3 feet, and since the Batch III hulls had already showed signed of  longitudinal weakness, resulting in external strengthening, it was also deepened by 4 feet. Although the dimensions of the machinery spaces wern't changed, the stretch resulted in the shafts being significantly longer and at a shallower angle, which meant all the sloping engine and gearbox mountings had to be re-designed. Topsides, the main superstructure block was unchanged but the deck house ahead of the hanger was significantly longer and housed the bulk of the new systems. The very tight helicopter pad was slightly increased in length also. Below decks, the main change was the addition of a deep magazine aft, between the shafts, and changes to the operations room and galley arrangements.

The main point of the stretch was to add a point-defence capability to the Type 42, and this took the form of a pair of GWS 25 Sea Wolf point defence SAM launchers located port and starboard on the new structure ahead of the hangar. Alternatives such as the proposed lightweight four-round launcher and the automatic two round one were studied, but the former would introduce logistic difficulties since the missiles were packaged differently and the latter was felt to have too few ready-to-fire rounds. The new GWS 26 vertical launch system wasn't quite ready and would require extensive testing before it could be fitted. Only a single Type 911 Sea Wolf tracker could be incorporated, aft of the launchers, while the aft Type 909 Sea Dart tracker was relocated to the roof of a new deck house ahead of the launchers which housed the hoists from the missile magazine. Air defence was also boosted by fitting a pair of  Vulcan Phalanx 20mm CIWS mountings amidships, in a similar fashion to that of earlier batches. Another problem with the Type 42 was the convoluted path that torpedoes had to take to get from the magazine (under the flight deck) to the tubes on the main superstructure, so the latter were replaced by the new Magazine Torpedo System, developed for the Type 23 frigates, which housed torpedoes in a common magazine just in front of the hangar. This automated system could deliver torpedoes to the hangar for loading onto the Lynx helicopter, or to a pair of fixed, internal launch tubes on either beam. The Super RBOC chaff launchers were relocated from the aft superstructure, where they would clash with the Sea Wolf launchers, to the former torpedo tube positions.

Crews had complained about the Type 42's cramped and unergonomic operations room since the class had first entered service, and with the Batch IV needing space for additional radar and weapon consoles, this problem had to be addressed. Extending the ops room forward would put it uncomfortably close to the explosion risk of the Sea Dart handling room, so the only option was to extend it aft into the galley space. Up to this point, all Type 42s had had a single galley serving all messes and the wardroom. This 'egalitarian' feature was much beloved of the Labour government that commissioned the class, although the real reason for it was to save space and money in a very tight design. In the Batch IV, the main galley and junior rates' dining hall were moved aft into the extra space created by the stretch, and a separate, smaller galley now served the Wardroom and CPO's mess, allowing space for the enlarged ops room. As with all Royal Navy ships after the Falklands, great attention was paid to improved survivability and damage control, with an alternate damage control centre, multiple backup generators and pumps and duplicated power, water and data lines.

While the Type 22 Batch III frigates had been on the table, the plan had been to replace the lost ship names as soon as possible by using the last three Type 22 Batch IIs. The Lord Mayor of London had already succeeded in persuading the Royal Navy to rename the 8th ship after the capital, and seeing this, the cities of Sheffield and Coventry, grieving from the loss of 'their' ships, successfully lobbied the Navy to name the 9th and 10th ships accordingly. Once the Type 42 Batch IV had been selected however, it became obvious that these would be a more fitting replacement for the lost ships and the cities agreed to this. In keeping with the 'hurt towns' theme, the fourth ship was named Chatham, after the town which had just seen it's famous naval dockyard close after 400 years of service. The  four ships therefore commissioned as follows:

D99, HMS London, April 1990
D80, HMS Sheffield, July 1990
D118, HMS Coventry, October 1990
D100, HMS Chatham, February 1991

The last three Type 22 Batch II frigates reverted to their original 'B' names and commissioned as follows:

F95, HMS Bloodhound, June 1987
F96, HMS Bruiser, July 1988
F98, HMS Boadicea, October 1988

The Type 42 Batch IV destroyers served the Royal Navy well for over twenty years. Arriving just too late to see service in the first Gulf War, they nevertheless took part in the subsequent policing operations. They also saw active service in the Adriatic during the various Balkan conflicts of the 1990s, in the Sierra Leone operation in 2000, in the Iraq invasion in 2003, and the Libyan intervention in 2011. In May 1994 HMS Sheffield demonstrated her improved point defence capabilities when two Yugoslavian missile boats launched three SSN-2B Styx anti-ship missiles at NATO forces in retaliation for the seizure of various ships trying to smuggle fuel and weapons past the NATO embargo. Sheffield downed two of the missiles with her Sea Wolf system while a third was decoyed by her ECM and subsequently shot down by gunfire from the Goalkeeper CIWS system of the Dutch frigate HMNLS Van Kinsbergen. The NATO ships then returned fire, one missile boat being sunk by Sea Darts (used operationally in a surface-to-surface role for the first time), and the other by Harpoon SSMs. In 2011, HMS Chatham was operating off the Libya coast when she detected a fast jet, believed to be a MiG-23, approaching from landward. The jet refused to identify itself or turn away, so Chatham shot it down with two Sea Darts. Subsequent reports have suggested that the aircraft may in fact have been trying to escape to Malta rather than attack the British ship, but the matter remains unclear.

All four Batch IV ships were decommissioned as a group in 2013, the fourth Type 45 destroyer, the Type 42's replacement, having entered service in a much reduced fleet. This brought the turbulent thirty-eight year history of the Type 42 destroyer with the Royal Navy to a close, although a single Batch I ship survives in Argentine service.


Notes: in real life, the Batch III Type 22 frigates mentioned in the text actually got built and the Type 42 Batch IV is purely a product of my imagination. Their names were Cornwall, Cumberland, Campbeltown and Chatham. The 'B' names mentioned in the text really were the intended names of the last three Type 22 Batch IIs before they were changed.

BTW, I'm experimenting with using www.minds.com to store images instead of photobucket. Minds is an alternative social media site with a combination of features from Twitter, Facebook, blog sites and photo/media sites and a robust committment to freedom of speech which the big sites seem to be moving away from. Early days yet, but it looks pretty good.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 07:48:57 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canada goes Dutch
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2016, 04:23:35 AM »
ETPS Gripen. ETPS uses leased Gripens for real, but they send pilots to Sweden to fly them and they're in near-standard Flygvapnet colours. What if they were based in the UK instead and wore the Raspberry Ripple scheme?




They do have a cool tail though:



that said a Raspberry Ripple Gripen would be damn fine!! :)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canada goes Dutch
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2016, 04:24:38 AM »
I did this for the COIN GB. I'd like to do it in plastic at some stage and I've got the kit set aside.


You and me both mate! :)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canada goes Dutch
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2016, 05:58:43 AM »
They do have a cool tail though:

...

that said a Raspberry Ripple Gripen would be damn fine!! :)


Yeah I saw those after I did the profile. Scooter actually built one a good few years ago: http://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php/topic,10569.15.html Slightly different scheme but he had all the same problems I did modifying it to suite the airframe!

You could probably modify the traditional raspberry ripple scheme to include that blue fin & gold logo. It'd look a damn sight classier than the 'Quinetiq' nonsense!
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canada goes Dutch
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2016, 06:33:40 AM »
[It'd look a damn sight classier than the 'Quinetiq' nonsense!

I think you mean "QinetiQ"
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Weaver's Profiles and stuff: Canada goes Dutch
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2016, 07:14:01 AM »
[It'd look a damn sight classier than the 'Quinetiq' nonsense!

I think you mean "QinetiQ"

Sorry, can't get out of that nasty old-fashioned 'spelling' habit..... ;)
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith