Author Topic: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280  (Read 77420 times)

Offline perttime

  • The man has produced a Finnish Napier Heston Fighter...need we say more?
Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #175 on: August 17, 2013, 08:23:36 PM »
I wouldn't be surprised if half of you have probably never heard of it before, yet it's going to be very familiar nonetheless.
It has at least one so distinctive shape that people will figure out who designed it...
... but if it had gone into production, who would have used it?

Offline Talos

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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #176 on: August 17, 2013, 08:55:30 PM »
Glad you guys are looking forward to the Ye-8. I didn't know much about it when Logan pointed me at it and suggested it, but I've since really gotten into the design and I'm  having a good time with it.


Come to think about it, that's probably the closest thing to a proper portrayal of production F-CK-1 over the internet......

So......

(Of course your existing projects come first- can put it behind everything else you're gonna do in terms of priority.)

I hadn't planned anything with the F-CK-1, though I do like the design. Maybe one day.

It has at least one so distinctive shape that people will figure out who designed it...
... but if it had gone into production, who would have used it?

Yes....also, the US would have used it.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 09:45:57 PM by Talos »

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #177 on: August 18, 2013, 03:12:13 AM »
There's a name for people like you pair...I think this image hints at what I am thinking:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Talos

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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #178 on: August 19, 2013, 08:27:58 AM »
There's a name for people like you pair...I think this image hints at what I am thinking:



Fine, fine, I'll put my shirt back on. Jeeze....


I don't want to give away too much from teasing, so instead I'll post a mockup I did the other day of something I'd like to fiddle with in the future. Developed versions, newer gun turrets, solid gun noses, radar-equipped night fighters, Blenheim replacements, and maybe even twin booms.


Offline tsrjoe

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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #179 on: August 19, 2013, 06:17:04 PM »
ooohh Martin Maryland  8) i can think of at least 3 Finnish schemes that would suit this one (thinking Blenhiem, hehe)

 ;) joe

Offline Talos

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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #180 on: August 19, 2013, 08:29:15 PM »
ooohh Martin Maryland  8) i can think of at least 3 Finnish schemes that would suit this one (thinking Blenhiem, hehe)

 ;) joe

That would be the one! I've always had a soft spot for it, but only recently read up on how it was actually a pretty good little plane. I didn't realize that the only bomber ace ever got his kills in one, they did the pre- and post-battle recon for Taranto, and if they Brits had more of them they would have used them more.

Plus it's more visually interesting then both the Baltimore and Havoc.  ;)

Seeing your username reminds me I need to redraw my old TSR profile. It's so old it's not compatible with my current workflow when I do profiles and I'd take the opportunity to include a lot more detail, including rivets and more ordnance. One of these days...

Offline Talos

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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #181 on: September 13, 2013, 01:05:28 AM »
Here's an updated version of the size comp featuring some of the things I've been working on, like updated F-1/T-2 line art. It also features color versions of planes I have profiles for, including my collaborations with Logan and the unshaded Do 26ATT I did. Finally, the three redacted VFX planes (explanation in our GB post) have also been uncovered.



Click on the picture and keep clicking magnifying glasses until you get to the full size.

Offline Talos

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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #182 on: February 08, 2014, 01:14:29 PM »
Seeing the Space GB posted got me thinking about one of my favorite spaceplane designs, the X-15 derivative with the integrated ramjets in the belly, specifically this one.



I sat around for a little while this evening mocking it up, then decided to mock up the X-15A-2 to compare the size of the two...then I was trying to figure out how to launch it, so I tossed in my B-70 mockup for scale purposes.




Additionally, I've gotten a lot of work done on the Ye-8. It's coming along nicely.


Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #183 on: February 08, 2014, 11:44:11 PM »
Um...... more things to look forward to......  :)
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #184 on: February 09, 2014, 03:48:43 AM »
I'm liking the developments here.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Talos

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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #185 on: February 17, 2014, 12:33:55 PM »
I've had this sitting around started for a while, so I took a couple hours this evening to finish it up. In a similar vein to the Merlin-powered He 100 Buchon, it's another new engine, in this case the Jumo 004. Still needs a bit of tweaking here and there, mostly stray rivets.



EDIT: Recent update to the Size Comparison chart, and a larger shot of the A3D-1. I'm really pleased with how the cannons came out. In a close-up of them, they're almost dead-on.


« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 12:43:56 PM by Talos »

Offline perttime

  • The man has produced a Finnish Napier Heston Fighter...need we say more?
Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #186 on: February 18, 2014, 12:25:09 AM »
The Ye-8 and He 100-Jet look promising.
I suppose the He 100 would have the same issues as Yak-15.

Offline Talos

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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #187 on: February 18, 2014, 11:32:13 AM »
The Ye-8 and He 100-Jet look promising.
I suppose the He 100 would have the same issues as Yak-15.

Yeah, it probably would have the same issues, but it does have the looks, I think. I forgot to mention it, but I threw on the same armaments package from the He 280, three 20mm MG 151s.

Offline Damian

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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #188 on: February 22, 2014, 09:20:38 PM »
Your work just seems to move from strength to strength!
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc

Offline Talos

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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #189 on: February 28, 2015, 03:20:27 PM »
The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated….or I just haven’t been posting much recently. That isn’t to say I’m not doing things though. Besides collaborating with Logan on more aircraft profiles, most recently out Sea Duck, I’ve been taking a break from aircraft and scifi subjects and doing something else.

Years ago I picked up, randomly, an alternative history book called 1632, about a West Virginia coal mining town from 2000 that goes back in time to 1630s Germany and is stuck there for good. It had its flaws, but I was interested in seeing what they did with it. The next two books of the series I read, 1633 and 1634: The Baltic War started a thread that I found very interesting, integrating uptime (that is, 20th century) know-how to building up a navy. Naturally I was thinking of profiles I could do from the books back then, mostly the two aircraft designs they cobbled together in the early books. In 1633 though, there was mention of them building an ironclad sailing sloop-of-war based on a design from a book by a historian named Howard Chapelle. It sounded familiar and so I looked at my bookshelf when I read that and, low and behold, there it was on my bookshelf. Some investigating later and I found the closest and most appropriate design.

I followed the modifications listed in the book and started working on a basic profile drawing of it. I intended I would do the basic hull drawing and do a basic sailing rig, then if I had to later I could flesh it out into a full, normal profile.

That sat unfinished for a couple years until 2013, when I was working as an archivist for the Museum of the Confederacy in Richmond (I was doing my senior year of college uptown from it, so it was an easy hop over on the commuter bus). I had really been getting more and more into the Civil War-era navy at the time, so getting to hold the engineering log from the Confederate Ironclad Stonewall or a journal by a Midshipman on the Shenandoah was really neat. In 1633 and TBW, one of the big threads is how they create a small squadron of ironclads and timberclads for battle on the Baltic. There was a fairly decent description of them and I thought it would be interesting to sit down and work out how it should properly look like (this especially after seeing a really, really horrible design on the 1632 Wiki…). I first did a couple three-views of ironclads to get a feel for them and then worked out a simple design that fit all the mentioned design mentions (armament, sloped casemate, catamaran hulls, basic size, and propulsion being salvaged diesel engines from large trucks). I’m also planning on using the USS Cairo as a basis for the smaller timberclads, so I put the basic Cairo in there too. The first picture I’m linking is the comparison of Ironclad designs.




After doing those, I decided to go back and finally get the ship design I had started earlier done. It’s based on the sloop of war USS Plymouth with several modifications listed in the book. First was the depth of the hull. The real ship is 16 feet, but it’s deeper in the book, so I modified a packet hull from another of Chapelle’s books and deepened Plymouth. I also extended the spar deck bulwarks like it was mentioned, to protect the crew behind armor. The final design change I did wasn’t from the book, I converted her to a bark rig taken from her half-sister USS Albany. The fore-and-aft rigged mizzen mast cuts down on the people needed to handle it. The original ship was armed with a battery of 32 pounder long guns and four 8” shell guns while this one would have 68 pounder carronades that the Swedish king (whom this was being built for in the book) had become enamored with. Between the lighter armament and the deeper hull it probably wouldn’t have any problem carrying the extra iron armor they put on it.



With that one done, I turned my attention to other ships in the Chapelle books I had. Most of the people in the 1632 forums aren’t ardent navalists or had those books in their libraries, so I thought I would do interesting ones from them so they could see what was available for the shipyards to study from. I stayed away from the larger ships for a couple reasons, both economic and political, the ships of the line, the frigates, and so forth, and stuck with sloops-of-war, brigs, schooners, and a random assortment of other designs. I’m not going to go into detail on them right now, but a simple listing of the ones I have done so far, with more detail filled in later.

Sloops of War:
USS Macedonian

USS Cyane

USS Decatur

Brigs:
USRC Washington

USS Oneida

USS Burrows

Schooners:
USS Grampus

USRC Joe Lane

HM Schooner Union

Clipper City (Civilian)

USS Onkahye

Unnamed sliding-keel schooner


I also have been working on a reconstruction of a reconstruction of the Swedish battleship Tre Kronor from that time period. The second design is one I’m fiddling with for a riverine timberclad, smaller than the one mentioned in the books. This one would have a barbette with a pair of 68 pounder carronades mounted on slides as the only weapon. Essentially a mini version of the Mississippi River ironclad USS Osage. An alternate version I envision would have no roof on the barbette and a naval mortar mounted there instead. The final one is a Civil War steam gunboat, the Unadilla class, which I feel would get around a major problem they have in the series (the lack of deep-water ports. It draws less than 10 feet of water) and would give them a fairly cheap and robust steam warship without being so overpowering that good fiction couldn’t be written.





I love size comparisons (I blame some of the old aircraft posters I had above my bed as a kid!) so I’ve been throwing the drawings in together to get a feel for the relative sizes. I did two versions of the smaller and larger ships, one with the waterline trim and the other with the flat keel and the full hull exposed. As it stands, anything under 100 feet goes in the small, and anything larger in the main one. I intend to split it up later to <100 feet, 101-150, and >150 later on. The little scale figure  in the waterline ones is supposed to be about 5’6”.




Finally, I was fielding a question about a particular design being in the books, so I threw together a quick excel spreadsheet of all the plans in each of the three books of his I have.

A History of the American Sailing Navy The History of American Sailing Ships The Search for Speed Under Sail

Offline finsrin

  • The Dr Frankenstein of the modelling world...when not hiding from SBA
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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #190 on: February 28, 2015, 04:28:09 PM »
Thanks for posting these profiles.  Have a few sailing ship kits.  Like to build as 1/72 motorized w/o sails.  Vintage slow (10-12 kt) gunboat with a few updates.  Studied a few; find their hulls & decks awkward to figure out how/what to change.

Offline perttime

  • The man has produced a Finnish Napier Heston Fighter...need we say more?
Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #191 on: February 28, 2015, 05:02:05 PM »
The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated….or I just haven’t been posting much recently. That isn’t to say I’m not doing things though. Besides collaborating with Logan on more aircraft profiles, most recently out Sea Duck, I’ve been taking a break from aircraft and scifi subjects and doing something else.
...
I figured that Logan would've said something if you'd gone totally missing... :)

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #192 on: March 01, 2015, 12:21:47 AM »
1632 is the start of quite a series and resulted in a continuing forum on Baen's Bar.  Eric Flint is quite a character in person as well as a writer.

Offline Talos

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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #193 on: March 07, 2015, 07:37:43 AM »
Thanks for posting these profiles.  Have a few sailing ship kits.  Like to build as 1/72 motorized w/o sails.  Vintage slow (10-12 kt) gunboat with a few updates.  Studied a few; find their hulls & decks awkward to figure out how/what to change.


Best thing to do is sketch out some ideas and work from there. If the kits come with plans, copy the hull design from there and try out various superstructure shapes and equipment and all.

I figured that Logan would've said something if you'd gone totally missing... :)


No kidding. He would have sounded the jailbreak alarm. :P

1632 is the start of quite a series and resulted in a continuing forum on Baen's Bar.  Eric Flint is quite a character in person as well as a writer.


These are actually from my thread at Baen’s Bar! The series is pretty fun, but the arguments about tech, tactics, logistics, etc, in the Bar are even better.

Speaking of the Bar, here is another post I made earlier today with a design I’ve been fiddling with.



Since I started doing my drawings here, I’ve intended to do all the canon ones I could do. The timberclads stood out from the beginning as one I should do, but I’ve had problems for a while trying to figure out how I wanted it to look. The first thing I did was throw out some rather silly elements for a small river boat. The first was the four foot thick casemate. That would mean a significant amount of the ship’s beam would just be solid wood. The original timberclads only had about five inches of wood (they were light armor), for comparison. A couple feet would be perfectly fine and even Constitution herself only had 21 inch-thick sides. 48 inches would be insane, especially on a smaller riverboat.

The other one was the full catamaran hulls. In a river boat, catamaran hulls don’t give any advantage over full ones. Instead of that, I stretched the definition to include some stern paddle-wheelers like the Cairo (which I based my design on), the Essex, and the Benton. In all three of those designs, the hull is one piece until you get to the paddlewheel at the stern, where it splits into two wrapping around the paddle wheel. The Benton was originally a full catamaran snag boat called the Submarine No. 7. When it was converted into a gunboat, the first thing the owner did was plank in the two hulls to get more storage space for stores, coal, water, and ammo.

Having selected the Cairo as the basic model (due to the publicity of it being raised in the 60s and turned into a museum and the excellent National Parks Service blueprints of her), I thought about sizes. The ironclad was easy to size since it was mentioned as being about 30 feet longer than the nearly 150 foot long sailing ironclad they were building for Gustav. The timberclads were not, just mentioned as being somewhat smaller. I initially went with 100 feet long, 25 feet wide, and with a 3 foot draft, based on the dimensions of the Eider Canal. This resulted in an incredibly-cramped design for twelve guns, the crews to man them, coal bunkers, the steam engine and boilers, and the ability to manage to sail across the English Channel. I tried to eek everything out on that hull form, which was also substantially narrower than the Cairo’s proportions (175’ x ~50’ x 6’), even resorting to trickery like slicing off the “knuckles” on the beam of the ship and making them removable, increasing the beam to about 32 feet when they were installed. I did eventually give up on that size for the book timberclads, but did develop a small, two-gun riverboat based on that hull-form. With two carronades or a mortar and a very low profile, it would be just fine for operating on the total extent of the Danube, for instance.

The ship languished there for a while until I started reading Myron Smith’s Tinclads and Timberclads books and learning the original ships and how combat was done on the rivers. What shocked me when I was reading was the dimensions of the original three timberclads (Tyler/Taylor, Lexington, and Conestoga). They were all fairly long, two of them about as long as my ironclad design, but they all had much narrower beams than I expected. I decided to go back and try again, but this time with a bigger ship that actually had room for everything. I used the Cairo as a basis for the hull design again, but narrower for her length. The only parts that stayed the same were the smokestacks and paddlewheel cover, the casemate looks the same but every proportion of it is different. My aimed goal was 140’ x 40’ x 4’ for the length, beam, and draft. It ended up being those dimensions at the start of the raked bow, which added a few feet to the final length. Notable changes I made to the original design were bringing the rudders underneath the stern to reduce their vulnerability and adding a bit of sheer to the hull like the Essex had. A trick riverboats could do was have the keel inside. To strengthen the hull, I picture it with five keel structures going forward and aft. One on the centerline, two outboard, and then two more at the corners of the lower hull. The two middle ones then form the inner walls of the paddlewheel well and the rudders are attached to the ends of them where they protrude from the stern. More bulkheads going side to side form a series of watertight compartments throughout the lower hull, spaces to put stores, coal, water, ammo, and leaving an open area in the center to place the boilers in (protruding with the condensers and engines above into the casemate).

 I didn’t put anything on the upper deck besides a representation of the conning tower and a pair of Mitrailleuse fore and aft. I’m including a larger copy of the latter to show some of the details. It’s based on a diagram of a French one from the Franco-Prussian War, with a naval mount inspired by the Hotchkiss guns. The real ship would have plenty of unarmored deckhouses, including cabin space for the officers, as well as davits for boats set in for greater protection from the sea.

I envision three different ship designs all based on the same hull and machinery with each of them focusing on one particular thing. They are:

Timberclad-A (the one in the books and replicated here), well-balanced design with a large number of guns and the heaviest armor.


Timberclad-B: Based on the uptime USS Neosho and Osage ironclads and my mini-gunboat I mentioned earlier in this post (which I’m attaching to it too, to give an idea of the shape). Heavily rounded armor and a pair of long guns or a large mortar in either a turret or bulwark. Focus for this one is heavy guns. The picture I’m attaching is the basic drawing I was working on for the smaller ship, but it’s roughly the same design, just scaled up.


Timberclad-C: Based on the original Timberclad’s hull form. Lighter armor, but much more cargo space for men and supplies. I’m currently working on drawing this one and I’ll go for the full Timberclad look for now, which means a second deck aft, with open bulwarks ahead of them. I envision them equipped with extra tackle so an embarked artillery company can put their guns up there and use them to beef up the ship’s armament.

Finally, here it is with other ironclads of the era to get an idea of size. The two SSIM ships are 1632 ones, the rest are Union and Confederate ironclads of the Civil War.


Offline Logan Hartke

  • High priest in the black arts of profiling...
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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #194 on: March 07, 2015, 08:59:04 AM »
I figured that Logan would've said something if you'd gone totally missing... :)

No kidding. He would have sounded the jailbreak alarm. :P

Hey, Polikarpov, Tupolev, Petlyakov, and Myasishchev designed some of the motherland's finest aircraft in prison. Now get me those engine lines or you can forget about your gruel ration tomorrow!

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Talos

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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #195 on: March 07, 2015, 12:09:25 PM »

Hey, Polikarpov, Tupolev, Petlyakov, and Myasishchev designed some of the motherland's finest aircraft in prison. Now get me those engine lines or you can forget about your gruel ration tomorrow!

Cheers,

Logan

Da...I'm in good company! And I got those ready and forgot to send them. Check your Dropbox folder.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #196 on: March 08, 2015, 03:16:02 AM »
Now get me those engine lines or you can forget about your gruel ration tomorrow!


Comrade, you feed your prisoners daily gruel?  Bloody luxury!!!
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Logan Hartke

  • High priest in the black arts of profiling...
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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #197 on: March 08, 2015, 03:49:49 AM »
That's what I keep telling him!

Cheers,

Logan

Offline LemonJello

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Re: Talos' Profiles - He 100 and He 280
« Reply #198 on: March 08, 2015, 06:00:31 AM »
Must be one of those Re-education camps of a less strict regime that are hinted at existing.