Author Topic: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related  (Read 86088 times)

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #75 on: August 29, 2019, 01:17:29 AM »
I'm not at all sure you care, however...

One issue with these sorts of mechs, including the Star Wars AT-ST, is that they actually can't walk, at least not as depicted. They aren't balanced correctly to allow the wide stance of the legs to manage the balance of the vehicle when perched on one leg while the other leg advances. The human body manages this by having the distance between the hip joints and the centre of mass be a small fraction of the length of the leg, that small offset of the joint meaning that the moment arm between the body's centre of mass and the vertical position of one foot is small meaning that the torque looking to pitch the body off to one side is also small. The body starts to pitch over, nonetheless, but with a small torque, it doesn't do so very quickly and then the other foot touches the ground and balance is restored until the other foot leaves the ground and the process reverses. This provides the rolling gait of a normal human walk. When running, when the downward forces are greater due to the higher vertical accelerations experienced, you notice that people's feet start to hit the ground ever closer to the body centreline, reducing the moment arm further and, again, we don't pitch over.

These mechs, pretty much all of them, have wide spread hips and relatively short legs and move those legs relatively slowly. By the time one leg manages to lift, advance and return to contact, the mech will have angled over considerably. The only gait that works for these mechs (as depicted virtually everywhere) is the rather hopping gait of someone walking on two older style prosthetic legs. They have to virtually hop their mass up as their legs move between steps to prevent tipping over and the usual pattern mech would have to be at least as bad or worse as the legs get shorter and the hips further apart.

To remain upright in your tech world probably requires some sort of lift generator to offset the toppling torque such that the mech would remain upright. Note, of course, that this also means that the traction on the legs gets less as the weight is offset, so it might want to be a variable lift force and maybe something coupled to the walking control system to provide for the right amount of weight offset depending on what the mech is doing.

If you don't want to do that, then with the usual wider hips and short legs you probably need foot pads that cross over the centreline of the vehicle, like some of the old, win-up, tin toy robots.

But, like I say, this may be faaaaar too much engineering thought being put into this. All I can plead is that I'm an aerospace engineer and I can't help m'self.

Paul

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
  • "Define 'interesting'?"
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #76 on: August 29, 2019, 01:20:41 AM »
Just hit me! ED43, ED209's grandfather! ;D
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Small brown dog

  • Dwelling too long on the practicalities of such things can drive you mad.
  • Yappity woof grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #77 on: August 29, 2019, 01:31:55 AM »
Gotta ask:

How, nominally, does such a thing turn? I don't see any aerodynamic surfaces and it doesn't appear the handlebars move anything or that the lift/propulsion thingy pivots in any way.

Paul

Pretentious bull answer:
Repulsion field tech in combination with the small rudder inside the ion thrust tube which you can't see in the image.
There is a drive chain that rotates the projection faces (inside the casings) on the front face of the handlebars.
The Ion thrust power requirement is quite small and not of high thrust.

Real answer:
Christ knows - I got fed up of thinking about it because it was doing my head in.
Also. I used a totally new (for me) texturing method which took some time to get right. I was fed up of the thing my the time I was done :)
Its not that its not real but it could be that its not true.

Offline Small brown dog

  • Dwelling too long on the practicalities of such things can drive you mad.
  • Yappity woof grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #78 on: August 29, 2019, 01:40:01 AM »
I'm not at all sure you care, however...

One issue with these sorts of mechs, including the Star Wars AT-ST, is that they actually can't walk, at least not as depicted. They aren't balanced correctly to allow the wide stance of the legs to manage the balance of the vehicle when perched on one leg while the other leg advances. The human body manages this by having the distance between the hip joints and the centre of mass be a small fraction of the length of the leg, that small offset of the joint meaning that the moment arm between the body's centre of mass and the vertical position of one foot is small meaning that the torque looking to pitch the body off to one side is also small. The body starts to pitch over, nonetheless, but with a small torque, it doesn't do so very quickly and then the other foot touches the ground and balance is restored until the other foot leaves the ground and the process reverses. This provides the rolling gait of a normal human walk. When running, when the downward forces are greater due to the higher vertical accelerations experienced, you notice that people's feet start to hit the ground ever closer to the body centreline, reducing the moment arm further and, again, we don't pitch over.

These mechs, pretty much all of them, have wide spread hips and relatively short legs and move those legs relatively slowly. By the time one leg manages to lift, advance and return to contact, the mech will have angled over considerably. The only gait that works for these mechs (as depicted virtually everywhere) is the rather hopping gait of someone walking on two older style prosthetic legs. They have to virtually hop their mass up as their legs move between steps to prevent tipping over and the usual pattern mech would have to be at least as bad or worse as the legs get shorter and the hips further apart.

To remain upright in your tech world probably requires some sort of lift generator to offset the toppling torque such that the mech would remain upright. Note, of course, that this also means that the traction on the legs gets less as the weight is offset, so it might want to be a variable lift force and maybe something coupled to the walking control system to provide for the right amount of weight offset depending on what the mech is doing.

If you don't want to do that, then with the usual wider hips and short legs you probably need foot pads that cross over the centreline of the vehicle, like some of the old, win-up, tin toy robots.

But, like I say, this may be faaaaar too much engineering thought being put into this. All I can plead is that I'm an aerospace engineer and I can't help m'self.

Paul

I love the feedback and believe me I wrestle all the time with this sort of thing.
You are of course totally correct and to be honest I have never been happy with mechs largely for those very reasons. I  also think that the development  may never have taken place in my universe but I had this half finished mech idea I started about 3 years ago and it was one of those scrap it or finish decisions.
The Russians did away with their mechs anyway as alternatives like the Solokov Volkosob which is much more in keeping with my universe.which I could post if you like.
Its not that its not real but it could be that its not true.

Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #79 on: August 29, 2019, 01:47:28 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
  • "Define 'interesting'?"
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #80 on: August 29, 2019, 10:01:18 AM »
... which I could post if you like.

Duh! Yeah! Of course we want you to! Quit asking & DO, fer cryin' out loud! ;D
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Small brown dog

  • Dwelling too long on the practicalities of such things can drive you mad.
  • Yappity woof grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #81 on: August 29, 2019, 06:14:14 PM »


The arrival of the latest incarnation of the Luftpanzer, Jaguar 2, on the eastern front had caused untold misery not only for the Russian front line soldiers but also for the tank design bureau. Stalin was going crazy, threats were made and personnel had disappeared.

Just when it seemed that the Russians were making progress and driving the Nazi back, the Luftpanzer had almost overnight shifted the balance of power in favour Germany. The ME 626 Donnervogel was always a problem to armoured divisions but now in combination with the Luftpanzer 2 Russian armour just ceased to exist after any confrontation.

According to Stalin the solution was simple: More armour, more fire power and more of us then them. Finding more men always seemed to be easy but the equipment was another matter.The building program for armoured fighting vehicles had been expanded to such a state that many engineering companies had found themselves subcontractors to the major arms builders and keeping up with current supply alone left little or no time for innovation and experiment.

However, Mikhail Sokolov , designer and builder of  heavy agricultural and industrial equipment  was currently enjoying such a period where he could “play” simply because he was ahead of schedule. The company had produced a successful industrial lift generator before the war but had since been charged with the production of, as far as Sokolov was concerned, a lesser military design. He had actually been asked to slow down output as the subcontractors he shipped to were unable to meet their own almost impossible deadlines and had Solokov field generators sitting in crates taking up valuable room.

There was no doubt that the military unit currently in production was powerful but it lacked the refined unidirectional field focusing of the Solokov unit. Material handling vehicles working in factories or on the docks needed precision field focusing to manoeuvre in confined spaces with ease.  They should be able to stop and start in an instant, shift sideways and rotate about the vehicles central axis and all under load.  Solokov wondered about such a vehicle fitted with a useful armament and double the power generation.

In a bold move Sokolov redesigned the military field generator and fitted it with his own field focusing technology. He then fitted this to one of his own company  Sokolov bulk lifters, a tall narrow  but powerful dock side loading  vehicle and it worked well. Encouraged by the results he had a redesigned thick steel armoured carapace made that wrapped around the front of the machine. The lifting gear equipment and control space was filled with a 75mm cannon and an ingenious self-loading magazine holding 12 shells – said to have been copied form a downed ME626 of which Sokolov denied.

The potential was great but at this time the machine was beginning to lack power as the weight had increased with the addition of a war load. It was about this time that Sokolov had been imprisoned for the crime of hindering the war effort. However, Solokov turned this to his advantage stating that the war effort was now even more in jeopardy as he had the solution to the German armour problem. Being such a sensitive issue his claims echoed through the halls of power until they were heard by no lesser individual than Stalin himself who simply told his aid to instruct Solokov to “prove it”.

Solokov did prove it having no real alternative if he wanted to live.
Within 4 months of his release The Volkosob was in production. The power generation was solved by 2 x Shvetsov aero engines driving generators and industrial low power Ion thrusters. They may have been low power, having been designed for material handling vehicles, but two gave the Volkosob a top speed over the flat of just slightly over 60MPH. There was a need to add conventional aerodynamic control surfaces to the Yolkosob to help it manoeuvre at speed and, over undulating terrain at top speed, keep it from becoming airborne where it became an uncontrollable pilot killing machine if not kept in check and brought back into field contact with the ground.

The Yolkosob was ugly. Basically an industrial bulk lifter mutation on steroids built in the thousands and much loved by its operators. In the early days the pilots were women drafted in from the factories and docks where they had been skilled in the use of the non-military Solokov bulk lifter. They soon became skilled and feared fighters and along with their humble mounts are remembered for the part they played in turning the tide of the war in favour of the Motherland.

Its not that its not real but it could be that its not true.

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
  • "Define 'interesting'?"
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #82 on: August 29, 2019, 10:26:52 PM »
Love it! ;D :smiley:
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #83 on: August 29, 2019, 10:31:58 PM »
Beautiful concept and story!!  You have a real talent for this.

Offline Kerick

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #84 on: August 29, 2019, 10:45:41 PM »
Have you been to the website “industria mechanika”? This would fit right in! Fantastic design and story! Now who’s going to build one in plastic?

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #85 on: August 29, 2019, 10:58:41 PM »
and it was one of those scrap it or finish decisions.
;D ;)

Quote
The Russians did away with their mechs anyway as alternatives like the Solokov Volkosob which is much more in keeping with my universe.which I could post if you like.
Absolutely!

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #86 on: August 29, 2019, 11:04:17 PM »
Pretentious bull answer:
Repulsion field tech in combination with the small rudder inside the ion thrust tube which you can't see in the image.
There is a drive chain that rotates the projection faces (inside the casings) on the front face of the handlebars.
The Ion thrust power requirement is quite small and not of high thrust.

Real answer:
Christ knows - I got fed up of thinking about it because it was doing my head in.
Also. I used a totally new (for me) texturing method which took some time to get right. I was fed up of the thing my the time I was done :)
Totally acceptable answers on both counts!  :D

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #87 on: August 29, 2019, 11:13:05 PM »
Have you been to the website “industria mechanika”? This would fit right in! Fantastic design and story! Now who’s going to build one in plastic?
Yes, virtually any of your designs, SBD, would do very well in the Industria Mechanika model stable. There are several similar "anti-gravity" tech universes represented there and this is different enough to be separate, yet similar enough to find a ready market, I would think.

He does look for designs to reproduce as kits and you already have the base solids. The fighters and these land units would fit his scale of things very, very nicely. Especially in 1/35 for the ground units and 1/48 for the aircraft.

Paul

Offline Small brown dog

  • Dwelling too long on the practicalities of such things can drive you mad.
  • Yappity woof grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #88 on: August 30, 2019, 01:42:20 AM »
Thanks people :)

Have you been to the website “industria mechanika”? This would fit right in! Fantastic design and story! Now who’s going to build one in plastic?

No but I will go check it out.


He does look for designs to reproduce as kits and you already have the base solids. The fighters and these land units would fit his scale of things very, very nicely. Especially in 1/35 for the ground units and 1/48 for the aircraft.

Thats the second shout for this place. Now I'm intrigued.
Its not that its not real but it could be that its not true.

Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #89 on: August 30, 2019, 02:08:32 AM »
Love it. :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Brian da Basher

  • He has an unnatural attraction to Spats...and a growing fascination with airships!
  • Holding Pattern
  • *
  • Hulk smash, Brian bash
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #90 on: August 30, 2019, 04:04:34 AM »
The guy with his fist up is a nice touch.

Great stuff!

Brian da Basher

Offline Frank3k

  • Excession
  • Global Moderator
  • Formerly Frank2056. New upgrade!
    • My new webpage
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #91 on: August 30, 2019, 04:29:22 AM »
That's a great design1 Are those M2 Browning MGs?

I think the guy with the raised fist is saying "Я пукнул! Я признаюсь!"

Online Robomog

  • ...had a very bad experience with [an] orange...
  • Would you buy a used kit from this man?
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #92 on: August 30, 2019, 05:33:14 AM »
Love this vehicle, nice pixels  :smiley:

Mog
>^-.-^<
Mostly Harmless...............

Offline Kerick

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #93 on: August 30, 2019, 06:13:50 AM »
Would the Solokov Volkosob work best as an aircraft in 1/48th or armor in 1/35th scale? Now this would be a tough decision!

Here's the facebook site.
https://www.facebook.com/IndustriaMechanika/

https://industriamechanika.com/shop/

All I can get is the "shop" site. I was hoping for the "home" site. Maybe someone else can find it.

Offline apophenia

  • Perversely enjoys removing backgrounds.
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #94 on: August 30, 2019, 07:24:51 AM »
Love this mech!

I'm not too sure about using humans as a model for walkers, though. We are naturally unbalanced - like an F-16 - some other bipedal creatures are more stable and require far less brainpower to maintain balance while walking. The comment about wide hips made me think of extinct 'terror birds' like Gastornithiformes.

As birds go, the Gastornithiformes had relatively short legs and quite wide hips. Obviously they were smaller and more gracile than the average mech and scaling up changes things. But, generally I think, the Gastornithiformes make a better locomotion model than Homo sapiens.

As an example of the Gastornithiforme order, see Dromornis stirtoni from Late Miocene Oz:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/9868842-3x2-940x627.jpg
"The doorbell's ringing, could be the elves
But it's probably the werewolf ..."

Offline Kerick

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #95 on: August 30, 2019, 07:57:33 AM »
I'm not at all sure you care, however...

One issue with these sorts of mechs, including the Star Wars AT-ST, is that they actually can't walk, at least not as depicted. They aren't balanced correctly to allow the wide stance of the legs to manage the balance of the vehicle when perched on one leg while the other leg advances. The human body manages this by having the distance between the hip joints and the centre of mass be a small fraction of the length of the leg, that small offset of the joint meaning that the moment arm between the body's centre of mass and the vertical position of one foot is small meaning that the torque looking to pitch the body off to one side is also small. The body starts to pitch over, nonetheless, but with a small torque, it doesn't do so very quickly and then the other foot touches the ground and balance is restored until the other foot leaves the ground and the process reverses. This provides the rolling gait of a normal human walk. When running, when the downward forces are greater due to the higher vertical accelerations experienced, you notice that people's feet start to hit the ground ever closer to the body centreline, reducing the moment arm further and, again, we don't pitch over.

These mechs, pretty much all of them, have wide spread hips and relatively short legs and move those legs relatively slowly. By the time one leg manages to lift, advance and return to contact, the mech will have angled over considerably. The only gait that works for these mechs (as depicted virtually everywhere) is the rather hopping gait of someone walking on two older style prosthetic legs. They have to virtually hop their mass up as their legs move between steps to prevent tipping over and the usual pattern mech would have to be at least as bad or worse as the legs get shorter and the hips further apart.

To remain upright in your tech world probably requires some sort of lift generator to offset the toppling torque such that the mech would remain upright. Note, of course, that this also means that the traction on the legs gets less as the weight is offset, so it might want to be a variable lift force and maybe something coupled to the walking control system to provide for the right amount of weight offset depending on what the mech is doing.

If you don't want to do that, then with the usual wider hips and short legs you probably need foot pads that cross over the centreline of the vehicle, like some of the old, win-up, tin toy robots.

But, like I say, this may be faaaaar too much engineering thought being put into this. All I can plead is that I'm an aerospace engineer and I can't help m'self.

Paul

I love the feedback and believe me I wrestle all the time with this sort of thing.
You are of course totally correct and to be honest I have never been happy with mechs largely for those very reasons. I  also think that the development  may never have taken place in my universe but I had this half finished mech idea I started about 3 years ago and it was one of those scrap it or finish decisions.
The Russians did away with their mechs anyway as alternatives like the Solokov Volkosob which is much more in keeping with my universe.which I could post if you like.

You have described what I instinctively felt was a problem for walking mechs for a long time. I'm glade someone was able to finally explain it properly.

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
  • "Define 'interesting'?"
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #96 on: August 30, 2019, 08:51:21 AM »
The "walker" designs I enjoy the best are those like ED-209 & the T-334, here. They have what I call "chicken legs".

The fault with most of them is the designers put the mass too high or too far forward. If you look at a chicken (or any other (semi-)flightless bird, for that matter) you'll see that their hip joints are way up near their ribs & spine, that their body mass is pretty evenly distributed fore-&-aft, & that most of their body mass is of a height with or below their hips.

"Chicken leg" designs were amongst the first successful walking robot designs (for a given level of "successful") & it's only the desire to create android robots that really pushes the research into mammalian, specifically hominid-gaited robot walkers.

Spiders, to my mind, are the best model for walking robots.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 08:55:52 AM by Old Wombat »
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #97 on: August 30, 2019, 10:45:47 AM »

I have 2 questions:
1. What is a "Volkosob"? Is this a misspelled Russian word (eventually Volkosub - a snake, Lycodon, Wolf snake) or anything else?
2. The name of the inventor in your story is Mikhail SOKOLOV (a real Russian name). The name of the craft is SOLOKOV. Was it changed on purpose or is it a typo? I guess it's a typo, because you wrote:
"... It was about this time that Sokolov had been imprisoned for the crime of hindering the war effort. However, Solokov turned this to his advantage..."
As you already know (I contacted you on DevianArt earlier) I like your designs very much. I build AG-machines (real models), but mine use 'Niobium"(Unobtanium) 3S-engines. I don't really care how possible it is: https://i.imgur.com/tjuLail.jpg
Please show your Messerschmitt-fighter.
Keep up the good work!
Regards!
Yves
« Last Edit: August 31, 2019, 10:41:51 AM by Yves Marino »
Yves Marino

Offline Small brown dog

  • Dwelling too long on the practicalities of such things can drive you mad.
  • Yappity woof grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #98 on: August 30, 2019, 05:15:01 PM »

I have 2 questions:
1. What is a "Volkosob"? Is this a misspelled Russian word (eventually Volkosub - a snake, Lycodon, Wolf snake) or anything else?
2. The name of the inventor in your story is Mikhail SOKOLOV (a real Russian name). The name of the craft is SOLOKOV. Was it changed on purpose or is it a typo? I guess it's a typo, because you wrote:
"... It was about this time that Sokolov had been imprisoned for the crime of hindering the war effort. However, Solokov turned this to his advantage..."
As you already know (I contacted you on DevianArt earlier) I like your designs very much. I build AG-machines (real models), but mine use 'Niobium"(Unobtanium) 3S-engines. I don't really care how possible it is.

Please show your Messerschmitt-fighter.
Keep up the good work!
Regards!
Yves

I remember reading somewhere that Volkosob is Russian term for a wolf hybrid breed bred by the Russian military to protect the borders. I have since seen it spelled Volkosoby and to be honest I'm not that good with English which is my native tongue let alone trying to get my head around Russian :)
The Solokov/Sokolov is just a typo as you guessed.

Your model looks great :)
I am sure I have seen your avatar somewhere else too.

Which Messerschmitt fighter do you mean?
I have an early war BF109/110 hybrid and one called the Donnervogel which is a twin engined Flack fighter


Its not that its not real but it could be that its not true.

Offline Small brown dog

  • Dwelling too long on the practicalities of such things can drive you mad.
  • Yappity woof grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #99 on: August 30, 2019, 05:18:14 PM »
Would the Solokov Volkosob work best as an aircraft in 1/48th or armor in 1/35th scale? Now this would be a tough decision!

Here's the facebook site.
https://www.facebook.com/IndustriaMechanika/

https://industriamechanika.com/shop/

All I can get is the "shop" site. I was hoping for the "home" site. Maybe someone else can find it.

I found the shop too.
Its nice of you to say but I'm not sure my stuff would fit in.

As for the scale I not sure either. Technically its an AFV but it does sort of fly .. maybe 1/41.5 scale  just to average it :)
Its not that its not real but it could be that its not true.