Author Topic: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 27816 times)

Offline raafif

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2014, 03:18:16 AM »
the one I saw in Switzerland was a black hole in the mountain side - Mirage landed on the autobahn & taxied off into it.  Guess they covered it with a landscaped door - you could disguise it as a petrol-station but you'd probably get too many people pulling off to fill up :-)

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2014, 08:40:19 AM »
I rather think the approaches would still give it away, Jeff.  One of the things you cannot hide, except by misdirection are the taxiways and runways on an airstrip, even if they are disguised to look like roads.

Umm!  they are roads Brian ---

Yes and no.  They are runways made to look like roads.  Their construction is much heavier than the standard road.

Quote
There was an article in one of the military aircraft magazines a couple of years ago or so which was about an exercise that had happened around there.  A bunker that was allowed to be photographed was just hacked into the mountain side along the highway

Still need approach taxiways.  Aerial photography would reveal side roads that run into mountain sides, very suspicious...


Offline kitnut617

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2014, 08:56:35 PM »

Umm!  they are roads Brian ---

Yes and no.  They are runways made to look like roads.  Their construction is much heavier than the standard road.


Not as heavier as you might think, the roads are built to handle transport trucks which have a maximum of 48 tonnes and 60 tonnes for articulated trucks, a Viggen has a max take-off weight of 20 tons.  Coincident perhaps -----

Anyway, the photos in the article showed what might have been no more than a roadside turnout, or layby, and the camoflaged bunker doors were no more than a 100 feet from the roadside
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 09:14:41 PM by kitnut617 »

Offline perttime

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2014, 12:30:34 AM »
Yes and no.  They are runways made to look like roads.  Their construction is much heavier than the standard road.

Still need approach taxiways.  Aerial photography would reveal side roads that run into mountain sides, very suspicious...
Also, runways USED as roads.

Finding out where the runways are cannot be all that hard.

Wrecking a tunnel and 50 runways is just harder work than wrecking 5 runways and some aircraft sitting on an apron.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2014, 01:12:27 AM »
Back on topic again. 

The Viggen is a remarkable aircraft, especially when you realize that it is designed to be maintained in the field by ground crew that could be as talented as a gas station attendant refueling your car or checking your oil and windshield washer fluid levels. 

What other engine could fit inside the Viggen?
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Offline jcf

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2014, 03:09:47 AM »
RB.141-3 (for Caravelle 7).
Max dia: 41.3"
Basic length: 130"

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1959/1959%20-%202806.html

So the diameter of the basic RB.177 Medway (w/out afterburner) proposed for the Viggen
would probably be in the same ballpark.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2014, 03:51:29 AM »
This could make an interesting diorama:




Looking at that pic, I'm struck by how similar the side of a Viggen, from the intake backwards, is to the underside of an F-16. I wonder if you could exploit that to make a twin-engined "uber-Viggen" from a pair of F-16s (maybe scaleorama'd)?
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Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2014, 04:16:16 AM »
This could make an interesting diorama:




Looking at that pic, I'm struck by how similar the side of a Viggen, from the intake backwards, is to the underside of an F-16. I wonder if you could exploit that to make a twin-engined "uber-Viggen" from a pair of F-16s (maybe scaleorama'd)?


nice catch
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2014, 07:16:00 AM »

Looking at that pic, I'm struck by how similar the side of a Viggen, from the intake backwards, is to the underside of an F-16. I wonder if you could exploit that to make a twin-engined "uber-Viggen" from a pair of F-16s (maybe scaleorama'd)?

Maybe something akin to the Dornier fighter back on page 1 of this thread?
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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2014, 07:25:34 AM »

What other engine could fit inside the Viggen?

Well, start with the RM8B specs and go from there when looking at alternatives:

Length: 6.23 m (20.44 ft)
Diameter: 1.03 m (40.55 in)
Dry weight: 2,350kg (5,180lb)

Given these dimensions, just about any other engine will fit inside easily.  The RM8 is a big engine physically!

Don't forget that you probably want something with at least roughly comparable (or better) performance:

Maximum thrust: 72,2kN (16,200 lbf) dry, 125kN (28,100 lbf) wet

Remember that the RM8 is basically just a licensed-built version of the Pratt & Whitney JT8D with a Swedish-designed afterburner.  BTW, apparently the TF30 ( from F-111, F-14 and A-7 fame) was originally wanted by the Swedes but wasn't available.
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Offline Kerick

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2014, 08:31:27 AM »
This could make an interesting diorama:




Looking at that pic, I'm struck by how similar the side of a Viggen, from the intake backwards, is to the underside of an F-16. I wonder if you could exploit that to make a twin-engined "uber-Viggen" from a pair of F-16s (maybe scaleorama'd)?


nice catch


I had to look at it for a minute but you are right. Aerodynamics would be the same if mounted vertically or horizontally. Would you keep the Viggen engine or go with F-100 or F-101s.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2014, 08:47:54 AM »

What other engine could fit inside the Viggen?

Well, start with the RM8B specs and go from there when looking at alternatives:

Length: 6.23 m (20.44 ft)
Diameter: 1.03 m (40.55 in)
Dry weight: 2,350kg (5,180lb)

Given these dimensions, just about any other engine will fit inside easily.  The RM8 is a big engine physically!

Don't forget that you probably want something with at least roughly comparable (or better) performance:

Maximum thrust: 72,2kN (16,200 lbf) dry, 125kN (28,100 lbf) wet

Remember that the RM8 is basically just a licensed-built version of the Pratt & Whitney JT8D with a Swedish-designed afterburner.  BTW, apparently the TF30 ( from F-111, F-14 and A-7 fame) was originally wanted by the Swedes but wasn't available.
Based on published reports (AW&ST, 1967) an afterburning TF41 would do nicely there in both size and power.  Both the F100 and F110 are of larger diameter and would be tight fits.  If Britain had proceeded with it, an afterburning Medway might have been suitable as ISTR that the dry one was very equivalent to the JT8D (have to wonder if that was the engine Capt. Eddie turned down for the original 727 design, which sent Boeing scurrying and resulted in the JT8D).

Offline jcf

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2014, 10:35:30 AM »
The overall length given for the RM8 is misleading as that is the length of the engine
plus the separate afterburner and reverser assembly. So any basic engine of roughly
JT8D dimensions is an option.

Evan, as the RB.141 Medway was proposed for the original DH.121 design, it's likely that
it was the 727 engine option Cap turned down. The scaled down RB.163 was developed from
the RB.141 after BOAC panicked and forced the downsizing of the DH.121.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2014, 02:29:14 AM »
The overall length given for the RM8 is misleading as that is the length of the engine
plus the separate afterburner and reverser assembly. So any basic engine of roughly
JT8D dimensions is an option.


True - the basic JT8D lengths range from 120.0" / 3048mm - 154.1" / 3914mm
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2014, 02:35:30 AM »
Odd thought for a "simple" RM8 replacement.  Since the original RM8 was derived from a comparatively early JT8D, which, in turn, derives from the JT8B/J52, start with the aerodynamics and other improvements of the JT8D-200 series, crop the fan to fit the maximum airflow the Viggen intakes can handle (or can be easily modified to handle), and add the existing RM8 afterburner and thrust reverser.

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2014, 04:41:04 PM »
An old one by Chris:

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2015, 09:23:03 PM »
Whats the height of the Viggen with the fin folded?

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2015, 03:56:43 AM »
Whats the height of the Viggen with the fin folded?

4.0m...why?
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2015, 07:37:20 AM »
The hanger height of Implacable and Indefatigable was 14'.  Too close though, as it wouldn't be possible to open the canopy, let alone remove the ejection seat while in the hanger.

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2015, 04:15:30 AM »
Vigsader = Viggen-Crusader


Offline jschmus

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2015, 05:44:54 AM »
Um, no.
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Offline jcf

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2015, 07:11:41 AM »
Change the layout from canard-delta to tailed-delta.
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Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
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actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2016, 02:48:35 AM »
A proposed Post Stall Manoeuvring Viggen development including a model someone created of it.




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Offline Kerick

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2016, 03:07:38 AM »
That looks very interesting

Offline Weaver

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Re: Saab Viggen Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2016, 12:12:20 PM »
Vigsader = Viggen-Crusader




That looks great!

How about doing the same thing with Phantom wings and tailplanes (flat, not anhedral) since that would give you undercarriage bays in the wing?
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