Author Topic: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk  (Read 17518 times)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2015, 12:44:31 PM »
I thought the RMT322 was an option for the aborted Westland version of the Blackhawk, could be wrong though.  Anyway Italian AW101 use T700s which would give you your commonality for a high low mix.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2015, 08:03:48 PM »
I don't know if they did or not.  The swap-out is obviously doable but I'm familiar enough with the S-70/H-60 engine installation to think that it would take some redesign and requalification work.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2015, 08:39:29 PM »
I know it was certainly on the cards for a while.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2015, 09:28:02 PM »
Yes I remember reading it but can't find the reference now, the prototype WS70 used GEs and I believe the export order they almost secured in ME was for GEs.  I vaguely recall something about a proposal for Westland built Blackhawks replacing Wessex in the RAF.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2015, 09:41:08 PM »
The S-70A-16 is listed as the RTM322 testbed variant, and here's a 2003 Rolls-Royce article that mentions the offering.

Quote
The RTM322 is also being offered for a number of additional applications, including the AgustaWestland/Lockheed Martin US101 and the Sikorsky UH-60 Blackhawk family.


http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-releases/rtm322-continues-to-demonstrate-reliability-153936715.html

Thanks,

Logan

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2015, 09:50:49 PM »
Here's the testbed that Rolls-Royce used from 1986 to 1995.





And here's some Flight magazine articles about it from the 1986-1988 period.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1986/1986%20-%202303.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1987/1987%20-%200091.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1988/1988%20-%201411.html

Cheers,

Logan

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2015, 01:43:49 AM »
Pretty, and no noticable external differences.   The engineer side of me would love to look under the cowl and see how the two installations compare.  So, assuming someone wanted the commonality, you could operate TRM322-powered S-70 family helicopters alongside others with the same basic engine.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2015, 01:54:08 AM »
Did you click on the second link (the one from 1987)? That's pretty "under the cowl" if you ask me. The very definition, in fact.



Cheers,

Logan

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2015, 10:58:36 AM »
Quite, but not necessarily from all the angles I'd be interested in (I've been up-close and personal with the T700 installation in both Black Hawk and Naval Hawk versions as well as having updated the control rigging instructions while I was contracting at Sikorsky).  It does look like there would definitely be some design work involved for a production installation of the RTM322 in place of the T700.  It looks quite doable, but there's definite detail design required - I know from current experience that Proof of Concept installations don't necessarily come close to their production equivalents and I'm quite familiar with the varied T700 installations on S-70 family members.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2015, 11:22:01 AM »
Ah, gotcha. I'm sure there's some major rework done. The Flight caption cheerily mentions that it only took "a matter of weeks", which—in fairness—I know isn't very long in a flight-capable experimental installation. Still, the fact that it's no longer pursued and was never selected over 20 years of marketing might suggest that it wasn't as straightforward as something like the F110 in the F-15 and F-16.

I recently read that the UK is looking at a AH-64E Guardian-style upgrade for their Apaches, but what they'd be doing with the engines and transmission was unknown (I imagine they'll be skipping that portion). Choosing to go with different systems than the US can cause complications with comprehensive upgrade programs and add expense, I know. It seems to be a lot more straightforward for other operators as long as they have the money.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2015, 11:30:01 AM »
Even keeping the same basic engines, there was considerable redesign involved with the fly-by-wire UH-60MU prototype program; I can imagine what effect a full-up change of engine would do - what odds do you give that the major interfaces would be in remotely close locations.  Unless there's a push like the F-15's Common Engine Bay, swapping engines could get interesting (there's enough involved with choice of engine on the F-16 to tell me that).

Offline jcf

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2015, 12:17:02 PM »
Having worked 747-400 electrical design, in the power panel group, I can
tell ya that the interfaces and wiring for the RB211 was very different from
that for the GE and Pratt engines, which in turn, while similar, were
different from each other.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2015, 12:42:52 PM »
*chuckle* And then you get into all the other systems interfaces (fuel, bleed air, controls, etc.) plus structural interfaces (parts of the S-70 forward firewalls attach to the T700 engines) and proper engine mounts.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2015, 11:41:58 PM »
Thanks Logan, I thought I was going senile for a moment there.

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2017, 02:32:09 AM »
Interesting photo:

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2017, 06:10:17 AM »
Nicely equipped MH-60R; I wouldn't want to be the "bad guys" facing it.

Offline KiwiZac

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2017, 04:56:30 AM »
Everything I've heard says it was, with various LO adaptations taken from Comanche and elsewhere.  It likely retained the four-bladed rotor though the blades may have been of a different design to reduce signature and I suspect there were some "interesting" IR suppression techniques, beyond those used on the UH-60M and MH-60S, applied.
How long do you suppose it'll be until we find out what on earth exactly was up with the Neptune's Spear helos? They've done so well at keeping everything except the downed tail very, very well hidden.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2017, 11:37:47 AM »
Recently acquired the AIAA book on the history and development of the Black Hawk.  One of the interesting bits was a picture of the mockup of their entry against Bell and Hughes for an attack helicopter, said entry using much of the Black Hawk's engine installations and dynamic components.

For a different take, how about S-70 engines and dynamic components replacing their S-61 equivalents on an evolved S-67?

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2019, 03:27:54 AM »
BlackHawk with Hellfire and Stingers(?):

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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2020, 02:46:23 AM »
The U.S. Air Force has officially nicknamed its new HH-60W Combat Rescue Helicopters as the Jolly Green II.

This moniker is a direct reference to the Vietnam War-era HH-3E Jolly Green and HH-53B/C Super Jolly Green combat search and rescue helicopters that saved the lives of countless downed American aircrews during the conflict in Southeast Asia.



Source: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32384/air-force-names-new-hh-60w-rescue-helicopters-after-jolly-green-giants-of-vietnam
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2020, 10:10:53 AM »
The U.S. Air Force has officially nicknamed its new HH-60W Combat Rescue Helicopters as the Jolly Green II.

This moniker is a direct reference to the Vietnam War-era HH-3E Jolly Green and HH-53B/C Super Jolly Green combat search and rescue helicopters that saved the lives of countless downed American aircrews during the conflict in Southeast Asia.

I think you are missing a word there.  "Giant" was part of the descriptor.  Perhaps they're embarrassed by how small the HH-60 is in comparison?


Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #46 on: February 29, 2020, 12:19:36 AM »
The U.S. Air Force has officially nicknamed its new HH-60W Combat Rescue Helicopters as the Jolly Green II.

This moniker is a direct reference to the Vietnam War-era HH-3E Jolly Green and HH-53B/C Super Jolly Green combat search and rescue helicopters that saved the lives of countless downed American aircrews during the conflict in Southeast Asia.

I think you are missing a word there.  "Giant" was part of the descriptor.  Perhaps they're embarrassed by how small the HH-60 is in comparison?

They were also referred to as "jolly Greens" with H-3 the "Giant" part usually for -53s. but I've heard them all referred to as "Jolly Greens" all across as the whole name is a mouthful.


These should honestly be Chinooks as was picked in the 2000s. but whatever.   :icon_twisted:

Just silly PR. as the USAF really failed to replace the -53s with something similar. Chinook was in the bag. The USAF wanted them, the 160th was already using them. This would have expanded reliability and operational capacity along with commonality with the army and with the added bonus that Chinooks are great in high altitude situations like those found in Afghanistan, and lastly they are stupid fast for helicopters. But the USAF had to throw a competition, The Chinook won, but then the competition was declared bogus after the losers protested and the USAF bought Pavehawks instead, and here we are.

the jolly green  :-\


Its really a great demonstration of how stupid procurement can be.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2020, 12:27:15 AM by taiidantomcat »
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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2020, 01:33:29 AM »
In the real world New Zealand went from UH-1Hs to NH90s.  But what if they followed Australia and adopted the UH-60/S-70?  Maybe a BlackHawk in this sort of scheme?



or this:

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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2020, 12:21:34 PM »
Sounds good.  :smiley:


Kiwi-Hawk by Motschke, on Flickr

Also, some Seahawks for the Swedes.


Swedish-Seahawk by Motschke, on Flickr
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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2020, 02:26:20 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.