Author Topic: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk  (Read 17587 times)

Offline elmayerle

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Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« on: February 05, 2012, 07:54:14 AM »
In addition to the obvious, such as a production derivative of the X-49, how about combining the Apache's TADS?PNVS turret onto the UH-60M, hanging suitable stores on the ESSS, and re-designating it an AH-60M?  I'm thinking one of the stores, if the weights are compatible, could be a shortened version of MATRA's combined rocket pod/fuel tank.  A pair of those and a double brace of Hellfires would look menacing.

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2012, 07:56:49 AM »
Something like this perhaps:



AH-60L / S-70 Battle Hawk
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2012, 10:20:43 AM »
Something like this perhaps:
AH-60L / S-70 Battle Hawk
Yeah, but with a more comprehensive sensor fit.  I might try for launch rails for Sidewinders, or equivalent, on the tip of each ESSS "wing".  Oh, interesting design fact, the ESSS wings attach to the same massive forged fitting on each side that the main gear shock attaches to (yes, that shock runs from the main gear all the way to the top of the cabin).

Online ChernayaAkula

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2012, 12:12:17 AM »
Or maybe this set-up the Israelis are trialling? Might even be the same EO turret as in Greg's pic, but with a much larger boxy fairing on the nose.



Pic form THIS TOPIC on fresh.co.il, where I also found the following pic of some Blackhawk with a pylon I've never seen before. Anybody know more? Almost looks like an ESSS pylon melted in the heat!  ;D

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Moritz

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2012, 03:50:14 AM »
That last one looks to be the "inner" portion of one of the earlier ESSS pylons (apparently there are several variations, I remember seeing front views of, IIRC, eight during my time at Sikorsky).  There'd be another straight section that could fasten to that to add another stores station on each side.

Offline jschmus

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2012, 07:49:53 AM »
There have been a number of different pylons in the H-60 series, including this one that was introduced by the Navy on the MH-60S "Knighthawk" a couple of years ago.



While looking for images of the ESSS, I also discovered this monstrosity:


That is the Rapid Airborne Mine Clearance System (RAMICS), featuring the Mk44 Bushmaster II 30mm gun.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 10:51:33 AM »
Damn, they went ahead and built it?  I saw the proposals in work shortly after I started contracting at Sikorsky (Armaments Group was located right next to the Propulsion Group where I worked).

Offline Rafael

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 12:53:04 PM »
I recall reading about this contraption, and having a presentation (which I found at ndia.org in the proceedings section, early '2000s) showing impressive pics of this thing's forebearers in action destroying mines. Underwater!. I recall the munition used was a supercavitating thing that would lead to the development of AHSUM (Advanced High Speed Underwater Munitions, pronounced “Awesome”). Recommended: The Science of War-Weapons, Scientific American.com, special online issue no.1, 2002, article "SWIFT SUBSEA WEAPONS Warp Drive Underwater"
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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 04:22:30 PM »
That looks cool!
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2012, 03:10:40 AM »
Any ideas on what five-blade main rotor could be used on the Black Hawk to make that "special" version?
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2012, 04:16:23 AM »
RAH-66 or AW101, most likely.  Sea King blades probably wouldn't look "modern" enough unless someone makes a kit of the Carson composite blades used on S-61s.



Cheers,

Logan

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2012, 04:20:23 AM »
Any ideas on what five-blade main rotor could be used on the Black Hawk to make that "special" version?

If that was the attack Black Hawk Jeff, wiki says it was an S-61 rotor system (Sea King)

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2012, 04:33:45 AM »
Ah, I thought he maybe meant the Bin Laden stealth ones.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2012, 04:52:39 AM »
Was that helicopter a Black Hawk Logan ?

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2012, 05:25:36 AM »
It's very much believed that it was.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2012, 05:36:32 AM »
I suppose that if Westland can put that faceted structure on their Lynx Wildcat, there's no reason why Sikorsky couldn't

Offline jcf

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2012, 07:12:15 AM »
Any ideas on what five-blade main rotor could be used on the Black Hawk to make that "special" version?


If that was the attack Black Hawk Jeff, wiki says it was an S-61 rotor system (Sea King)


S-67 = Blackhawk

S-70 = Black Hawk

 :icon_fsm:

As to the Bin Laden black helicopters, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to apply Sikorsky's
experience with the 1980s S-75 ACAP program to a new, composite structure 'stealthy' fuselage
with S-70 motive components.
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2012, 08:06:00 AM »
Any ideas on what five-blade main rotor could be used on the Black Hawk to make that "special" version?
If that was the attack Black Hawk Jeff, wiki says it was an S-61 rotor system (Sea King)


Ah, I thought he maybe meant the Bin Laden stealth ones.


Actually it was the "special" H-60 Black Hawk version that I was describing in my original post.  I refrain from calling it "stealth" as that term is used far too often for things that do not qualify for that description.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 08:09:20 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline jcf

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2012, 08:43:20 AM »
C'mon Jeff, everybody knows that all ya gota do is push the 'stealth' button. ;D
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2012, 08:55:50 AM »
C'mon Jeff, everybody knows that all ya gota do is push the 'stealth' button. ;D


I would rather have a smite button :)
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2012, 12:22:52 PM »
Everything I've heard says it was, with various LO adaptations taken from Comanche and elsewhere.  It likely retained the four-bladed rotor though the blades may have been of a different design to reduce signature and I suspect there were some "interesting" IR suppression techniques, beyond those used on the UH-60M and MH-60S, applied.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2012, 12:59:10 PM »
Actually it was the "special" H-60 Black Hawk version that I was describing in my original post.  I refrain from calling it "stealth" as that term is used far too often for things that do not qualify for that description.

I understand, but it's an H-60 with LO modifications.  I know it may not be "stealth", but when you say "stealth Black Hawk", everyone knows what you're talking about.  When you say "'special' Black Hawk", you are inviting confusion for the sake of pedantry (as evinced by kit's understandable confusion).  That's my two cents, at least.

We sacrifice accuracy for the sake of communicability every day.  Everybody just draws the line in different places.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline jcf

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2012, 01:19:22 PM »
Yep, plus stealth as a word and concept is far older than concepts of invisible airplanes. ;D
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
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conspiracy.”
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2015, 07:07:57 AM »
Have I ever wondered here about the viability of engining the Black Hawk with RTM322?  Would commonality of engine with AW101 add to the versatility of the series (I was thinking of a hi-low mix with AW101 for naval use) or take away from it via development expense?

Also...... can the Knight Hawk carry both RAMICS and ALMDS at the same time, or would it be a hunter-killer team?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 07:17:16 AM by dy031101 »
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Jay Hawk, Pave Hawk
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2015, 08:45:11 AM »
Have I ever wondered here about the viability of engining the Black Hawk with RTM322?  Would commonality of engine with AW101 add to the versatility of the series (I was thinking of a hi-low mix with AW101 for naval use) or take away from it via development expense?
Yes, you could, but it would definitely cost (a whole new set of engine installations plus firewall,  cowling, intake, and exhaust system changes - all these will still require testing and certification).  For a large enough order, I could see it, but it would need to be a good sized order.