Author Topic: Mirage F1 inspiration  (Read 33475 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2016, 04:12:48 AM »
May be to become a real world rather than whatif:

Quote
Argentina Negotiates with France to Buy 12 Combat Aircraft;

(Source: La Nacion; published June 14, 2016

Although it was recently phased out by France and Spain, its two European operators, the Dassault Mirage F-1C fighter remains an effective fighter, but its in-flight refueling capability could be seen as a potential threat to UK sovereignty over the Falkland Islands. (French AF photo)
PARIS --- Argentina is negotiating with France to purchase 12 Mirage F-1 combat aircraft, and possibly Mirage 2000s, as well as engines to equip the twenty Pucarás that are currently grounded, Argentine Defense Minister Julio Martinez told La Nacion.

Passing through Paris, where he came to attend the Eurosatory armaments exhibition, Martinez was today received for an hour by his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian, with whom he discussed in detail the possibility of that purchase.

"The transaction provides excellent value, and under very favorable conditions," he said. The context of the acquisition has evolved favorably due to the two ministers’ agreement to undertake the operation on a "government-to-government" basis, thereby avoiding intermediaries while taking advantage of the new climate of trust established between the two countries.

"The Argentine Air Force cannot do without supersonic aircraft. Our pilots must be able to train in modern aircraft," said the minister.

Martinez refused however to specify amounts, modes of operation and payment deadlines because "negotiations are not finished." He also acknowledged that even if the United States has offered to sell Argentina their supersonic F-16 fighter, the "French option" is more consistent with the needs of the country:

"The operating cost of the F-16 makes them almost prohibitively expensive," he said. Chile, which has 24 of the aircraft, cannot fly them because every hour in the air costs $ 17,000.

Moreover, considering that the Argentine pilots have known the Mirage for decades, the country would save the costly process of adaptation to a new technology.

Martinez said that "other countries have also proposed their own planes. For example, Italy".

La Nacion knows that the Swedish company Saab has also offered Gripen NG fighters, which will be manufactured under license in Brazil, with technology transfer included.

The minister also pointed out the importance of buying new Astazou engines from Turbomeca -- now called Safran Helicopters Engines -- to retrofit to the twenty [FMA IA-58] Pucara aircraft that are presently grounded. These aircraft could be used for the "surveillance of the northern border, the main transit region for drugs".

"You cannot perform this mission with supersonic aircraft," said Martinez, “but the Pucara is perfectly suited for it."

If successful, these acquisitions would surely lift the spirits of young air force pilots for years, as like their counterparts in the army and navy they lack proper equipment and see their income shrinking, as La Nacion reported yesterday.

"Yes, it is true, the salaries of the armed forces are half those of the metropolitan police. And it is also true that many NCOs will leave for that reason," admitted the minister of defense.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2016, 06:14:23 AM »
Chinese Mirage F.1 anyone?

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2016, 09:01:14 PM »
Why not, there's plenty of French gear in Chinese service, though the one I would love to have seen in real life was roos on the wings.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2017, 10:46:07 PM »
Australian Army Aviation Mirage F1 Foliage Green uppers (with a high, almost 1950s RN FAA demarcation line), Light Sea Grey lowers, black Roos instead of roundels.  Each Australian Army Aviation Brigade has a battlefield air superiority, strike, reconnaissance regiment, equipped with Mirage F1E, F1CR and Jaguar in two fighter, two strike and one reconnaissance squadron.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2017, 09:53:45 AM »
A spanish one with EJ200... Not a bad idea, thanks I'll take note of this :)
In your opinion, need a scoop like the kfir at the base of tail fin ?
With a turbofan engine, I don't see as you'd need one as the bypass air should provide sufficient cooling flow.  With a straight turbojet like the J79, I believe you would need such a scoop.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2017, 09:55:13 AM »
Saw an article today, see below, that the USN may be buying Spain's Mirage F.1's for new aggressor aircraft.  Might be just the scheme(s) for a J79-powered variant or two.

Quote
Does the United States take the Spanish F-1?

02/13/2017

It has recently transcended the interest of the United States to have more second-hand aircraft to equip its groups with "Aggressors".  Because of this, Spain would have made available 12 Mirage F-1 (C.14) aircraft that once lent tasks with Wing 14 at Albacete Air Force Base.  These planes, deprogrammed in 2013, would include two in the two-seater version and would be transferred to the US Navy for the training of their pilots under war games with aggressor squads.  The transfer would imply a transfer of 12 million euros in favor of Spain, who would be in charge to put them in condition of flight.

I suspect it was either auto-translated or the writer does not have English as their first language.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 10:06:59 AM by elmayerle »

Offline Bryan H.

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2017, 09:42:30 PM »
Thoughts for that new engine, depending on who's doing the modifications, F404/F414, RM12, EJ200, M88.  Personally, I'd go with the EJ200 just to be contrary.  If it's the Israelis doing the modifying, the F404/F414 would be most likely, the Swedish, as in my thought, the RM12. any other European country, the EJ200, and, finally, France, the M88.  I could see it as an upgrade of the Spanish ones with them installing an EJ200 as part of the upgrade.


I love your idea  :D

I have one similar with a F-1B and some part of Kfir :
- nose of C-10
- IFR probe of Kfir
- cockpit instrument panel from C-10 (both seat)
- one piece front canopy (like modern kfir an M2000)
- new engine (but which one ???)
- modern weapons load

Not realistic sure, but it's this of the KH MF1B will be a scrap in a boneyard (like my KH F-1C in progress)


I had a similar idea a few years ago and came up with this...






To the model... 
It's a standard Italeri/ESCI 1/48 Mirage F.1 with Eagle Designs 1/48 Kfir C.7 parts (air scoops & camera bit under the tail), a dome made from a cut up LANTIRN and a PW1120 engine made from a 1/72 PW F100 from a 1/72 F-16 kit.  The decals are from a variety of sources - the roundel is original, cobbled from US & French insignia.  The TX flag on the tail was a pain - it is created from some US Bicentennial markings.  If you look close at the tail the aircraft has a US style tailcode but with an "AC" number for Texas Army Air Corps.  She also has some combat markings.  The South African-inspired scheme is Field Green, Dark Tan and Light Ghost Grey over Air Superiority Grey - the vague outlines in the camo are accidental.  I had painted out an older top camo with dark grey before coming up with the current scheme; some of the dark grey shows through.  I liked the look and didn't repaint - it gives it a bit of an "operational" aircraft look.  After arming it, I decided that it looked rather overloaded but haven't changed anything.  When I get around to it, I think I'll keep the 2 LGB's, wingtip AAM's, the Maverick & the CBU. 

The backstory...
The Texas Army Air Corps has been a long-term user of Dassault products and (as is it’s national defense policy) has built the Mirage F.1 under license.  In Texan service, the Mirage F.1 built by General Dynamics (Texas designation F-9 Mirage 2) was used as a multi-role light fighter.  With its rough and primitive airfields capability, ease of maintenance, good performance (payload, speed, range, multi-role capability and diversity of missions); the Mirage F.1 had been found particularly useful in “colonial”  and other “primitive” settings.  In the early ‘90’s the TX Dept of War had decided that the best replacement for an old Mirage F.1 was a new build, updated Mirage F.1.  The latest incarnation of the Mirage F.1, the Texas Army Air Corps F/A-9E Mirage 2 Plus, incorporates a number of improvements.  The late production Mirages most notably have new high-performance PW1120 engines (13,550 lb st dry) vs. the old Atar 9K (11,023 lb st dry), a lightweight modified version of the APG-73 radar, a strike camera – giving (limited) photo-reconnaissance capability, improved ECM & IRCM, a FLIR/laser ranging turret, a wider range of armament options and a number of other improvements. 

F/A-9E Mirage 2 Plus #02-0375 “Margaret” is regularly stationed at Antanarivo IAP/AAF as part of the Texan Madagascar Garrison – Air Component.

Cheers & happy modeling, Bryan

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2017, 07:18:39 PM »
 :)

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2017, 07:26:41 AM »
I should find one in 1/144 scale and convert it into a fountain pen.
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2017, 09:15:20 AM »
Quote
"The operating cost of the F-16 makes them almost prohibitively expensive," he said. Chile, which has 24 of the aircraft, cannot fly them because every hour in the air costs $ 17,000. "

Wow
The true operational cost of operating is really amazing! Even more so when one considers the F-16 was developed as a cost-effective complementary platform to the F-15 in USAF service!

M.A.D

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #60 on: February 27, 2017, 01:00:24 PM »
Quote
"The operating cost of the F-16 makes them almost prohibitively expensive," he said. Chile, which has 24 of the aircraft, cannot fly them because every hour in the air costs $ 17,000. "

Wow
The true operational cost of operating is really amazing! Even more so when one considers the F-16 was developed as a cost-effective complementary platform to the F-15 in USAF service!

M.A.D

Well an F-15 is about $40,000 CPFH...  so I'd say that's pretty good.

He is nuts if he thinks he is going to get any better with Mirages too BTW.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/taiwan-in-perspective.com/2013/02/02/taiwans-air-force-inventory-and-procurement-options/amp/

Worse than I guessed actually
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 01:11:44 PM by taiidantomcat »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2020, 03:05:46 AM »
Hmmmm...

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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2020, 07:29:34 AM »
Mirage F.1 with two engines?
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2020, 04:59:06 AM »
Chinese Mirage F.1 anyone?




I remember reading somewhere that the Mirage F1 was one of the principle marketed Fighter's promoted to PLAAF when the floodgates to the new PRC opened to the Western markets...I think it was the notion of the Mirage F1 simplicity and cost effectiveness for a high performance fighter (as well as the williness of France tinsel it's arms to anyone with the cash) that was to be appealing - alas at the time, although deemed cheap by Western standards, it was still deemed expensive by the then sleeping Chinese economy. How times have changed.

P.S. One can only assume that had the PRC purchased Mirage F1, it would undoubtedly have been copied or evolved in some way, as most French 'purchased'arms were - with or without French concent.


MAD

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2020, 07:43:53 AM »
They would have ordered 200, taken delivery of 50, then cancelled the order as they had their own unique and vastly superior Chinese fighter that was in no way a copy of the Mirage F1, except that it was identical to the F1 one in everyway except for the materials used, i.e. paper mache instead of stainless steel bolts and doped linin instead of aluminum wings.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2020, 02:14:10 AM »
Mirage F.1 with two engines?

Nope:

Mirage F-O (for Australia = Ostralia)
-study from second trimester 1967 (1/1 mock-up of the photo certainly later)
-precise role unknown, maybe a "strike trainer"
-Derivative of Mirage F2
-2xGE J85-13 with 1230/1830 kgp
-Length : 11.65 m
-wingspan : 6.50 m
-height : 3.40 m
-wing surface : 14 m˛
-wing degrees : 48°
-empty weight : 3400 kg
-max weight : 7200 kg
-max speed sea level : M 0.98
-max speed : M 1.55 at 38 000 ft
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #66 on: June 27, 2020, 02:20:58 AM »
Shameless plug:  some Australian, New Zealand, Singaporean and Malaysian Mirage F.1s here:  http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=8820.0
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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #67 on: June 27, 2020, 09:46:52 PM »
Plug away! Some really good stuff in there.  :) Considering Kiwi, Singaporean and Mayasian F.1s now.
Cheers,
Moritz

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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #68 on: June 28, 2020, 12:39:40 AM »
So how about a two engine Morage F.1?  Maybe similar in size to the Mirage 4000?
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2020, 12:43:01 AM »
I'd say more the size of a F-5B Jeff

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #70 on: June 28, 2020, 03:12:57 AM »
So how about a two engine Morage F.1?  Maybe similar in size to the Mirage 4000?

If you are talking about two engines in the same class as the ATARs in the F.1 then you are in the territory of the Sper Mirage G8A or ACF:



If wanting to keep to the same basic size of the F.1 or even simply a twin engined F.1 then I suppose you might look at engines such as the Adour from the Jaguar.  In fact, doing a comparison:

Atar 09K-50
Diameter: 1.021 m
Length: 6.589 m
Weight: 1582 kg
Thrust: 49KN Static Sea Level or 70KN AB
Adour Mk.102
Diameter: 0.782 m
Length: 2.969 m
Weight: 704 kg
Thrust: 22KN Static Sea Level or 30KN AB

Therefore using two Adours in the rear would see the following rough numbers:

Width of rear engine bay: ~1.6m - thus quite fatter than standard Mirage F.1
Length: 2.969 m - no problem here and in fact, one might be able to give it a shapely rear to accomodate the greater engine diameters
Weight: ~1400kg thus a bit lighter though one would need to factor in structure as well
Thrust: 44KN Static Sea Level or 60KN AB - thus less power though again, one needs to factor in weight etc.

Could be an interesting alternate history if a twin engine bird was wanted for some reason.


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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2020, 02:25:48 AM »


All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #72 on: October 04, 2020, 03:34:18 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #73 on: January 29, 2021, 02:40:04 AM »
If an Israeli Kfir style Mirage F.1 was done using J79 etc, I suggest a F.1A be used as the basis thus emphasising the non-BVR requirement:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Mirage F1 inspiration
« Reply #74 on: April 17, 2021, 05:10:17 AM »
Mixing Rafale and Mirage F1. (top view fits with first side view)