Beyond The Sprues

Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Land => Topic started by: GTX_Admin on December 02, 2012, 05:31:24 PM

Title: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 02, 2012, 05:31:24 PM

Hi folks,

A thread for your Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Hetzer_lesany.jpg)

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 02, 2012, 05:34:08 PM

To begin with, what about a post war Csech ST-I with a 76mm gun common to the T-34?

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on December 02, 2012, 11:02:27 PM

Any possibility that anyone might have picked up the idea of a high-low pressure tank gun?

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Mark Aldrich on December 03, 2012, 11:58:29 PM

In reality, the pak 75 was more powerful than the T-34's gun.  Now mounting one with a 85mm might be kool.  That is why I plan on doing a diesel powered variant with 60mm hypervelocity gun.  The IMI "MIGHT" have done something similar had the IDF purchased those 16 ST-1s the Czechs offered them.   

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 04, 2012, 02:18:06 AM

I realise that.  My reason for suggesting they might go with the T-34 gun was simply one of commonality...perhaps forced from outside.

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Mark Aldrich on December 04, 2012, 03:46:00 AM

That's always a possibility!  I saw on facebook someone did a "long Gun" Hetzer.  not sure of the caliber gun but they also extended the body.  Looked really nice!

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on October 26, 2013, 07:58:11 PM

Post war, E-10 or Hetzer with a Molins gun including autoloader or a 77mm HV developed as a replacement for towed AT guns in Australia's RAR heavy battalions.  The designs for the vehicles would have been brought over with Czech and German immigrants and adapted to Australia's post war (post invasion) needs.

Possible service in Korea with .50 Cal MG for the commander and internally mounted 2" mortar firing through the roof.  6 vehicles of the AEF 3 RAR AT platoon dug in at Kapyong.

Old topic but like I said looking for ways to get cool kit into Australian service and build up kits in the stash. 8)

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Buzzbomb on October 27, 2013, 02:06:21 PM

Quote from: Volkodav on October 26, 2013, 07:58:11 PM

Possible service in Korea with .50 Cal MG for the commander and internally mounted 2" mortar firing through the roof.

Germans did do a mortar Carrier Prototype on the 38T Chassis. Again something I just had to build when I found out about it.

(http://www.modelblokez.org.au/gallery/others/afv/trager/morsertrager.jpg)
While not exactly a Hetzer.. it really could be an idea after all as Volkodav says above.
This is old news.. been on sites before, but perhaps worth a repost

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on October 27, 2013, 02:31:54 PM

Now that is cool

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on June 21, 2015, 07:11:50 PM

These and many more versions, Flakpanzers, assault guns, flame throwers, recovery and command vehicles, even a Swedish army APC.  One thought I had was along with the BREN and BESA machine guns the UK selects (or even co-develops) the TNH export version of what became the LT vs. 38 / Panzer 38t.  Not as far fetched as it sounds as when I was looking up dates to start this topic I found the following in Wikipedia:

"The British Royal Armoured Corps (RAC) had one trial model delivered on March 23, 1939 to Gunnery School  at Lulworth. A report stated, the "(bow) gunner could not sit back comfortably as the wireless set was in the way of his left shoulder." The report also stated that due to the shudder while the vehicle was on the move, it was impossible to lay the gun. Even at the speed of 5 mph accuracy was poor. As a result, the British did not purchase the Panzer 38(t) and the trial model was returned."

I had been thinking of a totally hypothetical UK procurement and license production as a replacement for the Mk VI Light Tanks and supplement for the Cruiser and Infantry Tanks, with of course the obligatory shadow plant being set up in Australia.  So to all the German permutations we can add just about everything the Commonwealth did with the various carrier designs, Mk VI Light Tanks, Cruiser Tanks and even the Lend Lease Stuarts etc.  The 38t would have retained their 7.92/8mm MGs but likely would have swapped the 37.2mm for a 2pdr and maybe a 3"CS version, 95mm CS or even a 25pdr SPG would have been viable, a 6pdr or 3" TD and Kangaroo APCs. 

The reliability and simplicity of the 38t means that, so long as sufficient vehicles could have been built, the UK may not have required as many (or any) M-3 Stuarts, maybe the US could have concentrated more effort on their mediums through to the excellent M-4.  Even reverse Lend Lease (Canadian or Australian built) 38t's in the early years of the war or even an evolved US built version.

Just some ideas.

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on June 21, 2015, 08:54:10 PM

An interesting site for reference.
http://henk.fox3000.com/38t.htm (http://henk.fox3000.com/38t.htm)

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 22, 2015, 03:23:12 AM

Topics merged

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on June 22, 2015, 11:38:26 AM

Sorry about that I did a search before starting the new topic as I remembered something but it didn't come up, thanks for the merge.

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on June 22, 2015, 09:36:45 PM

Timely that this should come up because I've been thinking about the Hetzer recently. I have a sketchy background that covers several of my models in which a last-ditch German "luft'46" fightback puts the Russians more on the back foot at the end of the war, and to cut a long story short, Czechoslovakia ends up as a neutral buffer-state rather than in the Warsaw Pact, with it's neutrality and arms procurement strictly governed by treaties in similar fashion to Finland or Austria.

This leads the Czechs to develop some of the German hardware which was being built in their factories, such as the Me-262, because it's easier than negotiating to import it (it also gives you an excuse to build Luft-'46 types without putting swastikas on them, of course... ;) ). On the ground, I imagined them being forbidden to operate "offensive" tanks over a certain (small) size, but with no limitation on turretless tank-destroyers, they develop the Lt-38/Marder platform as far as they can go.

So what kind of post-war development could you do with the Marder if there wasn't an alternative? The gun isn't going to stay competetive for long, but it's probably too small to fit a bigger one without radical re-engineering. Maybe a large-calibre, low-velocity high-low-pressure gun firing shaped charges? Could you stretch the hull?

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on June 22, 2015, 10:12:44 PM

The 38(d) stretched the hull, first by increasing the distance between the two sets of wheels and then by adding an extra single and then twin wheel station.   The result looks a little odd but works.

Towards the end of the War, the Germans were experimenting with Hi-Lo guns and had an 8cm and a 10.5cm weapon.   Mounting one or two of those on a standard 38(t) chassis was quite possible.   Mounting a standard 8.8cm gun and even a 12.8cm gun on a lengthened 38(d) was quite possible as well.

I'd see the Czechs utilising recoilless and Hi-Lo guns as they are cheap and quite effective when firing HEAT rounds.   HEAT rounds were the new "wunder" technology after WWII.  The Western Allies made extensive use of chemical energy rounds for their MBTs.  The French even adopted a near smoothbore weapon, in 105mm calibre, firing "Opus-G" rounds which utilised a slip ring to cut down on the rotational energy enparted to the round as it travelled down the barrel, to optimise it's armour penetration (the 84mm Carl Gustav, a rifled RCL adopted the same method for it's HEAT rounds).    The use of HEAT allowed a lot of energy to be directed against armour for a given calibre at relatively low velocities.

I'd also expect to see heavy emphasis on night-fighting, utilising IR search lights.   The Germans were starting to invest heavily in such technology as the war ended.   The Czechs were right into that sort of thing as well.

I'd also expect to see improved infantry AT weapons.   Again utilising HEAT rounds, there would have been developments of the Panzerfaust and the Panzershreck,  as well as recoilless rifles.

Further for the infantry, I'd expect to see 38(d) APCs introduced.  The Swedes lead with their adaptation of their 38(t)s to APC use through their rebuilding of them.   Move the engine forward, lengthen the hull and make it higher.   A lovely APC, which could be adapted to ACV, Mortar Carrier, etc.

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on June 22, 2015, 11:43:29 PM

My long term idea is my notional mechanised RAR (Royal Australian Regiment) issues casemate type tank destroyers, in place of towed anti tank guns, to the anti tank platoon of each battalion and light tanks, in place of some carriers, to the reconnaissance platoon.  Originally my thought was to do this post war based on war time experience, using an updated Hetzer or E-10 (I have one of each in the stash) and an M-24 for the reconnaissance platoon, but then I had the idea of the UK adopting the LT vs. 38 / TNH pre war and Australia ramping up to produce this vehicle concurrently with the UK.  This would have let me evolve this idea during the war with 6pdr and maybe 77HV gunned TD as well as rec versions attached to each infantry Btn.

The idea is these TDs would give way to Jagdpanzer Kanons in the 60s, upgraded to 105mm in the 70s and replaced by S tanks in the 80s.  Perhaps an L30A1 L55 120mm upgrade to the S Tank in the 90s, a RWS and reactive armour in the 2000s and bar armour and anti IED gear in the 2010s.  Getting a bit off the 38t now though.

Each Heavy Infantry Btn. would have three rifle companies and an armoured support company with an anti tank platoon with six 2pdr TDs, a rec platoon with six light tanks (maybe 2pdr or possibly 15mm BESA), a fires platoon with six 3" CS light tanks and a mortar platoon with six 3" mortar carriers (based on the light tank).  Mid war the number of rifle companies would be increased to four and the size of each of the armoured companies platoons would be increased to eight, the TD becomes a 6pdr the light tank a 2pdr and the mortars 4.2".  Late war the TD would resemble the E-10 and have a 77mm HV, the light tank a 6pdr, the CS tank a 95mm or 25pdr (same model as developed for the Sentinel) and a Kangaroo APC version would be developed.  All of these vehicles evolved from the TNH but with British, rather than German, accents.

Trying to think how to make the 38t look British, maybe a re-profiled turret for a start.  Would a Crusader turret fit, if not a Matilda turret instead?  The TD may initially be a simple shielded gun on top of the hull before evolving into something more like the Alecto and finally post war the E-10.

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 23, 2015, 03:36:09 PM

What about a variant (maybe based upon either the Flakpanzer 38(t) or Waffentrager 38(D) (both shown below) using something such as the Henschel Hs 117 Schmetterling SAM (also shown below)?

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/image.jpg1_zpskkejfsr4.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/image.jpg2_zps4qba9gfp.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YEsvqbKuQxs/UTkCWy99nZI/AAAAAAAACl0/CUi7WoUNhPY/s1600/Henschel-H2-117-Schmetterling-erprobungsstelle-Peenemuende-West.JPG)

All three are available in 1/35...

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 23, 2015, 03:37:00 PM

BTW, here is a useful link:  http://henk.fox3000.com/38t.htm (http://henk.fox3000.com/38t.htm)

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on June 23, 2015, 06:47:02 PM

Quote from: GTX_Admin on June 23, 2015, 03:37:00 PM

BTW, here is a useful link:  [url]http://henk.fox3000.com/38t.htm[/url] ([url]http://henk.fox3000.com/38t.htm[/url])

Yep it is good that's why I posted the link the other day  ;)

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Frank3k on June 24, 2015, 01:27:45 AM

How about a modernized version with a Cockerill 90mm LP gun/turret? I picked this gun in part because I have one in my stash.

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 24, 2015, 04:00:58 AM

Quote from: Volkodav on June 23, 2015, 06:47:02 PM

Quote from: GTX_Admin on June 23, 2015, 03:37:00 PM

BTW, here is a useful link:  [url]http://henk.fox3000.com/38t.htm[/url] ([url]http://henk.fox3000.com/38t.htm[/url])

Yep it is good that's why I posted the link the other day  ;)

Doh! :-\

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on June 24, 2015, 09:25:57 AM

Quote from: Frank3k on June 24, 2015, 01:27:45 AM

How about a modernized version with a Cockerill 90mm LP gun/turret? I picked this gun in part because I have one in my stash.

I think the Cockerill would be pushing it for the gun tank, but it might go in the Hetzer. A GIAT F2 (Panhard AML-90) would be another option.

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on June 24, 2015, 07:18:24 PM

FL11 turret on a cut down Jagdpanzer 38t hull?

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ChernayaAkula on June 24, 2015, 10:30:53 PM

^ That's exactly what I've been planning for quite some time now.  :icon_surprised:

Hmmm, double layers of aluminium foil no longer seem to cut it.... :D

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Dr. YoKai on June 25, 2015, 02:46:38 AM

How about a Hetzer ONTOS? Half a dozen ( or so ) LG 40 or LG 42s hung on the sides.

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 25, 2015, 02:54:44 AM

Quote from: Dr. YoKai on June 25, 2015, 02:46:38 AM

How about a Hetzer ONTOS? Half a dozen ( or so ) LG 40 or LG 42s hung on the sides.

 :)

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on October 10, 2016, 08:39:38 AM

How about these Swiss & Swedish variants I found in Wikipedia?

Swiss:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Nahkamofkanone_I_pic04.JPG/2560px-Nahkamofkanone_I_pic04.JPG)

Swedish:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Pansarbandvagn_301_Revinge_2013-1.jpg/2560px-Pansarbandvagn_301_Revinge_2013-1.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Stormartillerivagn_m43_Str%C3%A4ngn%C3%A4s_12.08.11.JPG/2560px-Stormartillerivagn_m43_Str%C3%A4ngn%C3%A4s_12.08.11.JPG)

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on February 23, 2017, 06:18:13 PM

Having a good old time on WOW playing Swedish versions of the 38(t) at the moment, just love how many versions of the vehicle permeate through that game.

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Story on January 30, 2022, 01:24:59 AM

Czech turret, Italian M14/41 hull - late 44/early 45. No Further Inforation.
(https://i.imgur.com/yLDywg7.jpeg)

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Story on January 01, 2024, 03:29:52 AM

More for usage than a particular build (since it applies to other series I've seen as well), but note how the crap is stowed for a Road March

Freshly delivered Panzerjäger 38 Ausf. H in La Goulette, Tunisia.
They could be part of the Panzerjäger-Abteilung 39 of the 21. Panzer-Division (or what's left of it) which got 9 of them in March 1943.
 (https://i.pinimg.com/564x/a2/2b/7d/a22b7d0ea6addd69edfb83818a732921.jpg)

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: aerospacer on January 09, 2024, 05:16:37 AM

A related vehicle was used as a movie prop: https://www.imcdb.org/v344500.html (https://www.imcdb.org/v344500.html)

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: raafif on January 11, 2024, 06:10:23 AM

a few found on the net ...

Title: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) (Sd.Kfz. 138/2) Hetzer and related Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on January 11, 2024, 08:10:00 AM

"top-heavy Swedish maybe" = 'top-heavy Swedish definitely'  ;)

This is the prototype Pvkv II (Pansarvärnskanonvagn II) tank destroyer mounting a 7,5 cm lvkan m/37A (an obsolete AA gun).