F-5 Freedom Fighter, Tiger, F-20 Tigershark, X-29 concepts and proposals ...

[Kerick]

Yes!!!

[elmayerle]

My other thought is the Derby seeker on a Python 5 airframe and warhead.

[Burncycle]

Those conformal fuel tanks may be photoshopped, but damn they look so right 

I'm going to be picking up an F-20 soon,  thinking about an ECM spine, conformal tanks, AIM-9X on the wingtips and figuring out how to re-do the landing gear so I can get two semi-conformal AMRAAM in there someplace.  A bit of a light armament, but it's a point defense fighter after all

[elmayerle]

Need to be careful shaping that spine on top of what the F-20 already has.  That intake at the base of the vertical fin is for a very needed heat exchanger (and the rest of the fairing aft of the air outlet for that contains the hydrazine tank for the remote start capability).

One thing I am tempted to do is replace the single Sidewinder, or equivalent, rail on each wingtip with the double Sidewinder rails used by the F-8.  For an air-to-ground loadout, double Zuni launchers on each of those rails.

Speaking of the Crusader's Sidewinder Y-racks, does anyone know where I can find those, in both 1/48 and 1/72 scale?

Oh, a couple other ideas for point-defense loadouts for the F-20.  A Norwegian one with IRIS-T missiles on the wingtips and Meteor missiles under the wings and a Japanese one with AAM-5's on the wingtips and AAM-4s under the wings.  For both figure an under-fuselage drop tank unless a decent set of conformal tanks could be worked up (given the structure of the F-5/F-20, not sure that's all that feasible, but 'twould look good).

[The Big Gimper]

Was the F-5E cleared to carry anti-ship missiles? Asking for a friend. 

I did see this: http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1696.msg23264#msg23264

[GTX_Admin]

Was the F-5E cleared to carry anti-ship missiles? Asking for a friend. 

I did see this: http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1696.msg23264#msg23264

As in a dedicated missile such as a Harpoon or Exocet?  I don't believe so.  Though one could theoretically use the AGM-65 Maverick (which the F-5E could carry) in that role.  I know that Norway did use F-5s in the development of the Penguin missile though not operationally as far as I understand:

[The Big Gimper]

Thanks Greg. Penguin power it is.

[elmayerle]

Was the F-5E cleared to carry anti-ship missiles? Asking for a friend. 

I did see this: http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1696.msg23264#msg23264

I believe it can carry a Harpoon on the centerline, but only there.  Been thinking of a Norwegian F-20 with IRIS-T missiles on the wing tip rails, Penguin missiles on the outboard pylons, fuel tanks on the inboard pylons, and a Harpoon on the centerline pylon.

[kitnut617]

Was the F-5E cleared to carry anti-ship missiles? Asking for a friend. 

Bullpup was tested and Maverick are/were used by Thailand and S.Korea  airforces on their F-5's

[GTX_Admin]

If these could be made to work, a F-5E with something should also be possible:




https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1983/1983%20-%200006.PDF

[GTX_Admin]

How about a British F-5K. 

[elmayerle]

How about a British F-5K.

Or an F-20K powered by a RB.199 to ease the logistics "tail".

[Rickshaw]

How about a British F-5K.

You mean like this one, Greg?

[M.A.D]

How about a British F-5K.

You mean like this one, Greg?

Well Northrop did propose a carrier-based derivative of the N-156 didn't it?

MAD

[elmayerle]

Well, it was an F-5 derivative, but there were major changes to meet the USN's requirements.  It is covered in Specialty Press book on Northrop designs.

[GTX_Admin]

How about a British F-5K.

Or an F-20K powered by a RB.199 to ease the logistics "tail".

You would have to use a single RB.199 I think (early F-20?) given the size of this engine vs the J85.  I suppose it also depends on the era and if this would be a F-5A derived version (maybe even a FC-5 buy?) or a F-5E derived version.  Looking at some engine options:

General Electric J85-GE-13 (if based upon F-5A/CF-5)		General Electric J85-GE-21 (if based upon F-5E)		Rolls-Royce Viper Mk 633-41/47 (same engines as Soko J-22 Orao/IAR-93 Vultur)		RB199 Mk 103		F404-GE-101 (F-20 engine)
Length: 2.776m Diameter: 0.559m Dry weight: 271kg Dry thrust:  12.099KN (2729lb) Thrust with afterburner: 18.149KN (4080lb) Total Propulsion Weight: 542kg Total propulsion Thrust:  5458 - 8160lb		Length: 2.858m Diameter: 0.663m Dry weight: 290kg Dry thrust: 16.041 KN (3600lb) Thrust with afterburner:  22.241KN (5000lb) Total Propulsion Weight: 580kg Total propulsion Thrust:  7200 - 10,000lb		Length: 4.44m Diameter: 0.709m Dry weight: 553kg Dry thrust: 17.659KN (3970lb) Thrust with afterburner: 22.241KN (5000lb) Total Propulsion Weight: 1106 kg Total propulsion Thrust:  7940 - 10,000lb		Length: 3.232mm Diameter: 0.734m Dry weight: 1061kg Dry thrust: 40.7KN (9150lb) Thrust with afterburner: 71.5KN (16,074lb) Total Propulsion Weight: 1061kg Total propulsion Thrust:  9150 - 16,074lb		Length: 4.034mm Diameter: 0..881m Dry weight: 1035kg Dry thrust: 48.9KN (11,000lb) Thrust with afterburner: 75.619KN (17,000lb) Total Propulsion Weight: 1035kg Total propulsion Thrust:  11,000 - 17,000lb

Therefore, based on this, if one wanted to do a F-5K, I see two main options:

• Minimal option - go with a standard F-5/CF-5 with no engine changes; or
• Radical Change - go with a single engine, perhaps the RB.199.

Note that the engine change will necessitate a lengthening of the fuselage to accomodate the longer engine.

Maybe replace the 20mm M39 cannons as well. - maybe a single 30mm ADEN?

[GTX_Admin]

Well, it was an F-5 derivative, but there were major changes to meet the USN's requirements.  It is covered in Specialty Press book on Northrop designs.

I assume you are referring to the N-285.

This is the book Evan is referring to BTW - you can see the design in question on pages 158/159:



Just to confuse things though, there is this big wing F-5 version with Navy markings:

[GTX_Admin]

You mean like this one, Greg?

Kind of - I was thinking a RAF version, probably dressed up in this sort of scheme:

[elmayerle]

How about a British F-5K.

Or an F-20K powered by a RB.199 to ease the logistics "tail".

You would have to use a single RB.199 I think (early F-20?) given the size of this engine vs the J85.  I suppose it also depends on the era and if this would be a F-5A derived version (maybe even a FC-5 buy?) or a F-5E derived version.  Looking at some engine options:

General Electric J85-GE-13 (if based upon F-5A/CF-5)		General Electric J85-GE-21 (if based upon F-5E)		Rolls-Royce Viper Mk 633-41/47 (same engines as Soko J-22 Orao/IAR-93 Vultur)		RB199 Mk 103		F404-GE-101 (F-20 engine)
Length: 2.776m Diameter: 0.559m Dry weight: 271kg Dry thrust:  12.099KN (2729lb) Thrust with afterburner: 18.149KN (4080lb) Total Propulsion Weight: 542kg Total propulsion Thrust:  5458 - 8160lb		Length: 2.858m Diameter: 0.663m Dry weight: 290kg Dry thrust: 16.041 KN (3600lb) Thrust with afterburner:  22.241KN (5000lb) Total Propulsion Weight: 580kg Total propulsion Thrust:  7200 - 10,000lb		Length: 4.44m Diameter: 0.709m Dry weight: 553kg Dry thrust: 17.659KN (3970lb) Thrust with afterburner: 22.241KN (5000lb) Total Propulsion Weight: 1106 kg Total propulsion Thrust:  7940 - 10,000lb		Length: 3.232mm Diameter: 0.734m Dry weight: 1061kg Dry thrust: 40.7KN (9150lb) Thrust with afterburner: 71.5KN (16,074lb) Total Propulsion Weight: 1061kg Total propulsion Thrust:  9150 - 16,074lb		Length: 4.034mm Diameter: 0..881m Dry weight: 1035kg Dry thrust: 48.9KN (11,000lb) Thrust with afterburner: 75.619KN (17,000lb) Total Propulsion Weight: 1035kg Total propulsion Thrust:  11,000 - 17,000lb

Therefore, based on this, if one wanted to do a F-5K, I see two main options:

• Minimal option - go with a standard F-5/CF-5 with no engine changes; or
• Radical Change - go with a single engine, perhaps the RB.199.

Note that the engine change will necessitate a lengthening of the fuselage to accomodate the longer engine.

Maybe replace the 20mm M39 cannons as well. - maybe a single 30mm ADEN?

My reference was to doing a F-20K with an RB.199, not converting a F-5E.  For a F-5K, I'd likely stay with the same engines (though I do know that at one time Northrop was talking with a couple engine companies about low-bypass turbofans that would be interchangeable with the J85's in fit and form to improve performance and range - my understanding is that they didn't see enough market to be worth the effort, never mind that a dry version of such an engine could be used to re-engine 20-series Learjets and bring them into compliance with latter-day noise standards which would be an additional large market).

[GTX_Admin]

Yeah, I agree a F-20K with a RB.199 is doable.  Sorry, I mis-read your original post as a F-5K with RB.199

[dy031101]

Um......

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/tacair-f-5-aggressors-to-get-the-garmin-g3000-flight-deck/

[elmayerle]

Greg, I'm not sure if that big-wing F-5 is the same one I know about or not.  The one I know about was proposed by the Service Engineering group and powered by two J97s.  AFAIK, it suffered from the NIH syndrome when presented to Corporate and Engineering management.  I worked with one of the gents who helped develop it when we were both on TSSAM.  He retired from that program and was a real old-timer with the company, he'd started when Jack still ran the company and was part of the wind-tunnel crew testing in the Cal Tech wind tunnel when they found out their LRI entry had been axed from the competition.

[The Big Gimper]

Not so much a photo of a CF-5A but rather the days when I had a 29" waist and you could shave using my boots.


CFB Borden June 1980 by Big Gimper, on Flickr

[GTX_Admin]

 

[Daryl J.]

Ooooh, that Big Wing USN variant using Freedom’s F/A-20C as a starting point.....