Beyond The Sprues

Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Land => Topic started by: GTX_Admin on December 28, 2011, 03:40:09 AM

Title: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 28, 2011, 03:40:09 AM
Hi folks,

A thread for your Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration:

 Here's a "Jagd Centurion" to start:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/More%20Creations/jagdcenturion.jpg)

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 28, 2011, 03:59:37 AM
The Centurion Tank had a good reputation.  What if the US Army acquired some, even for evaluation?

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on December 28, 2011, 04:09:23 AM
We've all heard about IFV designs that involved reversing the front and rear of a Centurion tank.

Do people remember that a prototype of Merkava was built out of the same idea?

Of course my favourite what-if is still the possibility of a TTD-derived Olifant turret with a 120mm gun and Leopard-2A5-derived addon armour package, placed on a Sho't-standard hull (and then clad in Canadian Forces camo  :D).
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 28, 2011, 07:09:17 AM
The King Abdullah II Design and Development Bureau (KADDB) has done some interesting Centurion variants too:

Falcon turret:

(http://www.military-today.com/tanks/falcon_turret.jpg)
(http://www.military-today.com/tanks/falcon_turret_l3.jpg)
(http://www.military-today.com/tanks/falcon_turret_l4.jpg)

MAP:
(http://www.kaddb.jo/Library/634334483599368750.jpg)
(http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/middle_east/jordan/heavy_armoured/map_ii/pictures/MAP_II_heavy_tracked_armoured_vehicle_personnel_carrier_KADDB_Jordan_Jordanian_002.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Maverick on December 28, 2011, 07:11:18 AM
I did profiles of the Cent back in the day, including SPAAG & SPG variants.

Regards,

John
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Logan Hartke on December 28, 2011, 07:43:24 AM
The Centurion Tank had a good reputation.  What if the US Army acquired some, even for evaluation?

Most people don't realize it, but the US actually bought most of the Centurions in use by NATO.  If you read Simon Dunstan's books on the Centurion, you get the impression that had US money not been behind the purchases, the Centurion would never have become the legend that it is.

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 28, 2011, 10:45:46 AM
Oh, those crazy Israelis... :D
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/MAR-290-Centurion-beyt-hatotchan-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 29, 2011, 09:48:02 AM
The Centurion Tank had a good reputation.  What if the US Army acquired some, even for evaluation?


Most people don't realize it, but the US actually bought most of the Centurions in use by NATO.  If you read Simon Dunstan's books on the Centurion, you get the impression that had US money not been behind the purchases, the Centurion would never have become the legend that it is.

Cheers,

Logan


True - I would still like to see a centurion in a scheme similar to this though:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/M47.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Logan Hartke on December 29, 2011, 11:16:12 AM
(http://www.minirenault.com/lista/military/char%20centurion%20korea.jpg)

(http://thetoyhq.com/shop/images/HG3508.jpg)

Done!  Next request.  Seriously, though, they basically wore a US scheme in Korea.

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 29, 2011, 12:01:25 PM
 :slow: :yarr:

Um, let me think... :on-fire:

Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Maverick on December 29, 2011, 09:30:46 PM
Whilst the US stars were added to Commonwealth vehicles in Korea for ID purposes, I'd suggest the scheme would be the standard British Army Bronze Green rather than one of the US Army's Olive Drab/Greens.  In addition, the vehicles had British registrations and the like which were different to the US vehicles.

On the subject though, it's always a case of US stars being added to a Commonwealth vehicle or aircraft for ID purposes.  One rarely, if ever, hears of British markings being added to US aircraft for the same purpose.

Regards,

John
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on December 30, 2011, 12:05:36 AM
Perhaps a trade-off with a license produced Centurion armed with the 90mm gun from the M26 Pershing?  That would certainly be an interesting subject. 
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Logan Hartke on December 30, 2011, 12:54:12 AM
On the subject though, it's always a case of US stars being added to a Commonwealth vehicle or aircraft for ID purposes.  One rarely, if ever, hears of British markings being added to US aircraft for the same purpose.

Wha??  Sorry, John, maybe you're just a bit absent-minded today, but I'd very much disagree with this.  Remember almost all US aircraft in the MTO in 1942-43 having the British fin flash?  Heck, all the USAAF aircraft in Europe throughout the war had RAF-style aircraft codes, adopted purely for Commonwealth identification purposes.

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on December 30, 2011, 02:02:57 AM
A quick-and-dirty trial :D
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 30, 2011, 02:09:05 AM

On the subject though, it's always a case of US stars being added to a Commonwealth vehicle or aircraft for ID purposes.  One rarely, if ever, hears of British markings being added to US aircraft for the same purpose.


Apart from the examples Logan has given, one needs to remember the sizes of contributions from the various countries.  Looking at Korea for example we see the following approximate force sizes during the war:

    South Korea 600,000
    United States 302,000
    United Kingdom 14,200
    Canada 6,150
    Turkey 5,460
    Australia 2,280
    Philippines 1,500
    New Zealand 1,390
    Thailand 1,290
    Ethiopian Empire 1,270
    Kingdom of Greece 1,260
    France 1,120
    Colombia 1,070
    Belgium 900
    Netherlands 820
    Union of South Africa 300
    Sweden 170
    Norway 105
    Denmark 100
    Italy 72
    India 70
    Luxembourg 44

With the USA providing by far the biggest foreign contribution, and also the largest hardware, it makes sense from a recognition pov to use the USA markings as a way of ensuring friendly fire is minimised.

I suppose an alternative could have been for the foreign forces to use some sort of "UN" markings, but alas I don't think that happened then...mind you it could be the basis for some sort of whiff.
 :D

Anyway, let's get back to Centurion Tank discussions.

Regards,

Greg

Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 30, 2011, 02:10:58 AM
I did profiles of the Cent back in the day, including SPAAG & SPG variants.

Regards,

John

Any chance of you reposting them John?
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Maverick on December 30, 2011, 07:42:35 AM
Ask & ye shall receive:

(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/Armour/Post%20War%20British/FV38051.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/Armour/Post%20War%20British/Conway1.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/Armour/Post%20War%20British/FV40101.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/Armour/Post%20War%20British/CenturionSPG01.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/Armour/Post%20War%20British/Centurion_GepardSAM01.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/Armour/Post%20War%20British/Centurion_Gepard01.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/Armour/Post%20War%20Australasia/Centurion_M19Hybrid01.jpg)

Regards,

John
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 30, 2011, 10:32:49 AM
Fantastic!  Except now I might need to get a centurion kit...or a few... >:(
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Maverick on December 30, 2011, 10:59:03 AM
Happy to be of service  :D

Regards,

John
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on February 01, 2012, 08:35:19 AM
(http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab22/dy031101/Parallel%20World%20and%20What-if/TTD-Centurion-withArmourUpgrade.jpg)

This intellectual exercise (including that mental note wearing the "bare" TTD turret) satisfies my desire to do a "Leopard-2-look-alike"......

Unfortunately this one seems to have a shot trap between the glacis and the lower portion of the arrow-head addon module.  :icon_crap:
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on February 01, 2012, 08:47:26 PM
That bass-ackwards SPG is very credible - India did something similar with their Vickers Mk.1 MBT chassis and Russian 130mm M-46 guns:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-46_Catapult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-46_Catapult)

Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Maverick on February 01, 2012, 10:06:36 PM
The vehicle in question was an actual proposal, the FV 3805 (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=12901.0 (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=12901.0)) as wass the Conway below it and the Malkara launcher below that.

Regards,

John
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on February 03, 2012, 06:30:41 AM
... my desire to do a "Leopard-2-look-alike"...

Something similar to dy's idea that I'd done as a take on Litvak's AltCan scenario. This version is meant to be an upgraded (EMES-18 Fire Control System) and uparmoured 'ops' version for the Balkans.

The original Super Centurion lacked the slat armour and used the EMES-15 FCS (I'll mount the image if anyone is interested).

Powerplant for both Super Cents was a 650 hp MTU MB 837 Ka-500 multi-fuel diesel driving a Renk HSWL 294-3 4-speed gearbox. This re-engining option was inspired by the Swiss Pz 68 during a technical team visit to Switzerland to assess the Mowag Piranha for the Canadian Army.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on February 03, 2012, 06:36:14 AM
Another spin on Litvak's AltCan concept was my SPAAG Centurion, the Artemis AAT.

The Artemis used the turret and guns from the French AMX 13/AMX 30 DCA. In Canadian service, the Artemis replaced the Ares AAT (an ex-Achilles CP with CDP tracks and twin 40mm Bofors in a Duster turret).

BTW: I went with the French turret to distinguish mine from Graeme Davidsons's amazing build of a twin Bofors Centurion SPAAG. See the build thread here: http://www.network54.com/Forum/169232/thread/1292811637/Centurion+Twin+Forty+SPAAG (http://www.network54.com/Forum/169232/thread/1292811637/Centurion+Twin+Forty+SPAAG)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on February 03, 2012, 08:16:19 AM
Something similar to dy's idea that I'd done as a take on Litvak's AltCan scenario.

I like Leopard 2A5's beefy turret, but yours is great.  :)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Dr. YoKai on February 03, 2012, 09:23:28 AM
 I suspect Green Mace might have strained the chassis a bit too much, but what about a Bloodhound ( or two, something like the
 mobile SA-4. ) with an accompanying radar vehicle?
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on February 03, 2012, 10:50:24 AM
I like Leopard 2A5's beefy turret, but yours is great.  :)

Thanks dy'. I do too but my Super Centurion was supposed to predate the 2A5.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 30, 2012, 05:08:57 AM
My favourite Centurion - the original Mark 1 fitted with a 17 pdr main armament and 20 mm Polsten cannon:

(http://arcaneafvs.com/centurion/cent_mk1_001.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on June 30, 2012, 06:08:02 AM
I'd not seen that arrangement before --- interesting
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Feldmarschall Zod on July 04, 2012, 07:54:19 AM
It really is a shame the Centurion did not come into service in the later part of 1944. That tank would have been a shock to the 3rd Riech forces. :o
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 04, 2012, 03:45:10 PM
It really is a shame the Centurion did not come into service in the later part of 1944. That tank would have been a shock to the 3rd Riech forces. :o

It almost made it - supposedly, six prototypes arrived in Belgium less than a month after the war in Europe ended in May 1945.  Would certainly make an interesting diorama having a Mk 1 Centurion against something like an E-50.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on July 23, 2012, 03:26:56 PM
Another spin on Litvak's AltCan concept was my SPAAG Centurion, the Artemis AAT.

The Artemis used the turret and guns from the French AMX 13/AMX 30 DCA. In Canadian service, the Artemis replaced the Ares AAT (an ex-Achilles CP with CDP tracks and twin 40mm Bofors in a Duster turret).

BTW: I went with the French turret to distinguish mine from Graeme Davidsons's amazing build of a twin Bofors Centurion SPAAG. See the build thread here: [url]http://www.network54.com/Forum/169232/thread/1292811637/Centurion+Twin+Forty+SPAAG[/url] ([url]http://www.network54.com/Forum/169232/thread/1292811637/Centurion+Twin+Forty+SPAAG[/url])


Wow that's fantastic apophenia!!!
That's what the Australian Army has been lacking since ................. the end of WWII, and has unfortunately elected to continue to lack :(
Although saying this and loving your model, I think it would be too heavy = expensive  :(

Great work!!!!

P.S. I've got mates up at the School of Armour, whom I'm sure is going to love this!!!!

M.A.D
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on July 25, 2012, 12:08:36 PM
Thanks M.A.D. You're right, the SPAAG Centurion would've been heavy ... but no more so than the AMX-30 with the same turret and radar.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Litvyak on July 25, 2012, 12:35:40 PM
Somehow I missed those AltCan profiles - lovely! That Super Cent looks especially tasty.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on December 17, 2012, 05:31:39 AM
I got sent some "SECRET" drawings from the 50-60's on proposed Canadian Centurions. I'll see if the guy who found them is OK with me posting them here. They aren't very detailed, but to give you an idea, Canada was looking at

- vertical launch ATGM version (probably SS-11)
- 155mm SP Gun (think son of Sexton)
- troop carrier

There were a couple others too. I'm thinking about adding to my Cent what-ifs to include the 155mm version, a tracked Honest John launcher, and something along the lines of the S-125M "Neva", a T-55 with quad SA-3, but obviously using a Centurion and for the missile, some kind of extended range HAWK or something totally made up.

Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on December 17, 2012, 07:08:19 AM
I got sent some "SECRET" drawings from the 50-60's on proposed Canadian Centurions. I'll see if the guy who found them is OK with me posting them here. They aren't very detailed, but to give you an idea, Canada was looking at

- vertical launch ATGM version (probably SS-11)
- 155mm SP Gun (think son of Sexton)
- troop carrier

There were a couple others too. I'm thinking about adding to my Cent what-ifs to include the 155mm version, a tracked Honest John launcher, and something along the lines of the S-125M "Neva", a T-55 with quad SA-3, but obviously using a Centurion and for the missile, some kind of extended range HAWK or something totally made up.
Hmm, an extended-range Hawk with a booster stage?  How looking at the various naval SAMs of the time and seeing if one of them would work?  I can see Alt. Canada not giving a hoot about other countries' NIH problems and adapting whatever worked well for their needs.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on December 17, 2012, 07:13:49 AM
Graeme,

How about a VL HOT instead of the VL SS-11?  Less workload for the operator and SACLOS would certainly be more adept at a vertical or near to vertical launch in comparison to the cumbersome SS-11. 
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Litvyak on December 17, 2012, 07:29:34 AM
What is "NIH"?
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on December 17, 2012, 07:38:45 AM
"Not Invented Here" I believe.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Litvyak on December 17, 2012, 07:58:08 AM
Aha, okay... makes sense. Thanks! :)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on December 17, 2012, 08:48:06 AM
Secret Canadian Cents! Oh yeah! Here's hoping your source is cool with you posting them on BtS  :)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: raafif on December 17, 2012, 02:13:21 PM
I'd ove to see some more Cent. project photos, Gingie.

Here's a Teledyne / Sth African / Jordanian project that is still in development - but now on a Challenger chassis ......
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s34/hobgrot/a5.jpg)

Below -- it has all the frontal shot-traps filled ....
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on December 18, 2012, 03:05:02 AM
Wow, amazing what a visual difference that Teledyne low-profile turret makes!
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on December 22, 2012, 01:31:31 AM
Special thanks to Don Dingwall for sending me these pics he discovered:

Heavy APC:

Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on December 22, 2012, 01:32:39 AM
Centurion III 20 pdr Gun

Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on December 22, 2012, 01:34:05 AM
Centurion Guided Missile Carrier proposal, Nov 1955

Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on December 22, 2012, 01:35:18 AM
Centurion Counter-Mortar Radar Carrier proposal, Nov 1955

Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on December 22, 2012, 01:36:25 AM
Centurion 105mm Howitzer SP, Nov 1955

Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on December 22, 2012, 01:37:48 AM
Centurion 155mm Howitzer SP, Nov 1955

I just found a used for my M-114 gun...

edit - sorry guys, I reached the image limit on my flickr account and had to delete this set to make room for more.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on December 22, 2012, 01:39:47 AM
And one of my own, a twin 40mm SPAAG Centurion. I actually got around to building this and will post the pics in the Models forum.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8362/8293757845_e6fbb74af6_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on December 22, 2012, 03:34:13 PM
Interesting that they had the 105mm firing rearwards but the 155mm firing forwards.  I'd have expected the reverse.   They also appear open topped whereas the comparable British 25 pdr and 5.5in SP guns on the Centurion both fired rearwards and were fully enclosed.

The ATGW vehicle doesn't appear to be firing SS11s, the missile design is wrong.  It has long span, mid-fuselage wings and a tail, whereas the SS11 had cropped delta fins.   I've seen the missile in the picture before but can't remember where.  I think it's a US early 1950s design IIRC.

Vertical launch with SS11 would have been a real challenge.  CLOS guidance as it stood was quite difficult to use and required the missile to be in the controller's field of view throughout the flight.  There was no "automatic gathering" or anything like what came in later when SS11 was first introduced.   IIRC Vigilant was the first to introduce such ideas into the lexicon.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on December 23, 2012, 02:08:07 AM
Yep, I wrote SS11 from memory, but once I saw the drawing I knew it was wrong. Also, nowhere does it say Anti-tank Missile, It's more likely a SSM carrier. Missile may be a Dart, timeframe would be about right; before SS-10 was selected. 

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2726/5751871631_05b49727df_b.jpg)

Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on December 23, 2012, 11:48:46 AM
Yeah, Dart looks like a better match.  Of the first generation ATGWs, I still think Vigilant was the best.  Unfortunately only the British Army agreed.  Malkara though, was the most awesome.  Not much could stand up to a 200lb HESH warhead.   :o
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on December 24, 2012, 07:37:18 AM
OK, 200lbs, i had to google that, because that's 2 x 155mm HE rounds... wiki says 57 lbs. Still, a HUGE warhead!
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on December 24, 2012, 01:11:06 PM
Thanks for posting those Centurion proposals ... great stuff!

That 200 lbs was for the total weight of Malkara (about twice the weight of the Dart). Andreas Parsch says that the SSM-A-23 Dart had a dual-thrust motor. Was that how the Dart was to pop up out of the Centurion Guided Missile Carrier's hull, I wonder?
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on December 24, 2012, 02:39:16 PM
D'oh!  You're right, that's the weight of the missile.  Does anybody know of a 1/35 scale model of the Humber Hornet with Malkaras?
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on December 24, 2012, 09:30:37 PM
D'oh!  You're right, that's the weight of the missile.  Does anybody know of a 1/35 scale model of the Humber Hornet with Malkaras?
Had a 1:35th scale kit of that subject years ago.  Found it in a hobby shop near the main train station in Frankfurt, Germany.  Do not remember the name of the company but the kit was rather primitive from what I remember of it and the Malkara missile was large and in charge. 
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Feldmarschall Zod on December 24, 2012, 09:39:18 PM
I think I am loosing my mind. I thought there was a pic of a Centurion with an M47 turret in this thread.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on December 26, 2012, 02:59:51 PM
D'oh!  You're right, that's the weight of the missile.  Does anybody know of a 1/35 scale model of the Humber Hornet with Malkaras?
Had a 1:35th scale kit of that subject years ago.  Found it in a hobby shop near the main train station in Frankfurt, Germany.  Do not remember the name of the company but the kit was rather primitive from what I remember of it and the Malkara missile was large and in charge.

There was an ancient Japanese 1/40 scale model of it IIRC seeing when I was a kid.  I also can't remember the name of the company.  Might have been Bandai or something similar, before they got the Gundam bug for giant robots...

Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on December 27, 2012, 09:06:06 AM
That wind-up 1/40th Hornet was by Midori (sp?). Pretty basic and toylike, as I recall, though.

Accurate Armour's Pig is probably the closest you can get in 1/35th.  But that is 50 quid and you don't even get the Malkaras  :P
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on March 05, 2013, 12:42:14 AM
Thinking about a couple Cent kit bash ideas. Take 2 hulls, cut one after the middle bogie, and cut the other before the middle bogie. Glue the two long sections and two short sections together.

For the longer Cent, I'm thinking a tracked Honest John Launcher, or a tracked Nike-Hercules launcher. The shorter cent hull...maybe a recce vehicle, with a Saladin turret? Something late 60's vinatge. Or a JgPz type role?

I'll try and sketch something up.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on March 05, 2013, 08:49:28 AM
very Q&D mock up

Imagine big SAM or SSM mounted on rear deck
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8384/8530072012_3d9c53129d_b.jpg)

And the shorter hulls mated together...hmm, not really thinking this will work.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8510/8530071936_2cd58dd3a7_b.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8386/8530071968_bcb23ffd83_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 05, 2013, 03:00:28 PM
Some cool ideas.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on March 05, 2013, 09:34:12 PM
The short hull could be the basis of a casemate type tank destroyer.......the Decurion
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on March 06, 2013, 07:48:27 PM
Imagine big SAM or SSM mounted on rear deck
([url]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8384/8530072012_3d9c53129d_b.jpg[/url])


Looks like something we would see out on the muskeg or tundra.    I see something similar just about everytime I go to Calgary, only it's a bit smaller (a Foremost something-or-other)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on March 07, 2013, 12:48:04 AM
Like this?

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8228/8468046641_2a08f7233f_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on March 07, 2013, 04:35:26 AM
Yup!  only they're civvie jobs
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on March 07, 2013, 08:53:42 AM
Problem with the shortened Centurion is that if you put a Saladin turret on it, then you have a very light armoured turret (approximately 15mm) on a very heavily armoured hull (maximum about 250mm).  Makes it very vulnerable.  What is needed is an equally heavily armoured turret.

The problem with the lengthened hull is that you start running into the width/length ratio problem.  Tracked vehicles need to be on x metres long compared to y metres wide or they become very hard to manoeuvre because of the friction of the track length in contact with the ground.  The British found this out in WWI and WWII, when trying to extend existing chassis beyond the ratio.   I'm unsure of exactly what the ratio is but the Challenger Tank Destroyer in WWII is a perfect example of where they hit it's limits.   The Challenger was quite hard to control around tight corners apparently.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on March 07, 2013, 09:54:51 AM
According to one of my reference books, the track length:width ratio has to be between 1.1:1 and 1.8:1, width being measured between track centrelines and length being the length of track actually on the ground.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on March 07, 2013, 12:13:36 PM
I rather like the recce version of the shortie Centurion.  Reminiscent of the WWII PzKpfw II Luchs and VK 1602 Leopard.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on March 07, 2013, 01:10:50 PM
Shorty Centurion has neat look to it.
Is a favorite of mine  :)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on March 07, 2013, 05:35:21 PM
According to one of my reference books, the track length:width ratio has to be between 1.1:1 and 1.8:1, width being measured between track centrelines and length being the length of track actually on the ground.

That sounds about right.  ;)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on March 07, 2013, 10:20:55 PM
Oh, those are great points ref ratio and turrets - thanks for the input!

I'll have to see about the long cent and what can be done. I think I can make the missile project over the cab and hang over the idler wheel like the Scud on ISU does. Or, i split the hull down the middle and widen it to keep a realistic L:W ratio.

For the shortie version, I may sketch up a 90mm JgPz type casement as suggested above.

Edit: I asked a colleague at the Directorate of Armoured Vehicle Program Management about the design.... sad to say, but he thinks my extended hull Centurion would either need very large corners to navigate, or it'd throw tracks all over the German countryside!
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on March 08, 2013, 12:57:52 AM
Looking at your extended hull Centurion I would think that the cab would be better mounted over the engine deck to give you more space and with that you could reduce the length accordingly if you wished to do so.  Instead of the Blue Tank/Nitto/et al M8 HST what about using the HobbyBoss M4 High Speed Tractor? 
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on March 08, 2013, 02:01:39 AM
yes of course, mount the cab over the engine.

The M8 cab was there because I thought I was going to win an ebay auction :-) Looks like it might be M4 afterall!
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on March 08, 2013, 02:22:58 AM
yes of course, mount the cab over the engine.

The M8 cab was there because I thought I was going to win an ebay auction :-) Looks like it might be M4 afterall!

With the M4 HST body you also have a rear set of passenger seats and the machine gun cupola/turret to contend with.  This could be a good thing if you are hauling around a large crew-served artillery rocket. 
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 30, 2015, 07:16:06 AM
Some very interesting photos of Australian Centurion Tanks (and other things) in Vietnam here (https://www.flickr.com/photos/aodcurator/sets/72157622748795855)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on May 30, 2015, 10:22:03 AM
Some very interesting photos of Australian Centurion Tanks (and other things) in Vietnam here (https://www.flickr.com/photos/aodcurator/sets/72157622748795855)

Indeed, some very interesting shots in there!   :)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 08, 2015, 05:30:51 AM
A variant I wasn't aware of:  the FV 4005 experimental tank destroyer with a 183 mm gun:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Flickr_-_davehighbury_-_Bovington_Tank_Museum_002.jpg/1598px-Flickr_-_davehighbury_-_Bovington_Tank_Museum_002.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on November 08, 2015, 10:29:45 PM
Some very interesting photos of Australian Centurion Tanks (and other things) in Vietnam here (https://www.flickr.com/photos/aodcurator/sets/72157622748795855)

Out of interest, there's a Canadian fellow I work with every now and then, who I found out was a door gunner on a Huey in the 7th Cavalry, didn't know before that Canadians were involved (albeit voluntary)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 09, 2015, 03:14:47 AM
Some very interesting photos of Australian Centurion Tanks (and other things) in Vietnam here (https://www.flickr.com/photos/aodcurator/sets/72157622748795855)

Out of interest, there's a Canadian fellow I work with every now and then, who I found out was a door gunner on a Huey in the 7th Cavalry, didn't know before that Canadians were involved (albeit voluntary)

I didn't know that either
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on November 09, 2015, 10:28:05 AM
Some very interesting photos of Australian Centurion Tanks (and other things) in Vietnam here (https://www.flickr.com/photos/aodcurator/sets/72157622748795855)

Out of interest, there's a Canadian fellow I work with every now and then, who I found out was a door gunner on a Huey in the 7th Cavalry, didn't know before that Canadians were involved (albeit voluntary)

IIRC less than a thousand (or was it more?) voluntarily served in Vietnam.  It compensated for the several thousand Americans who fled north to avoid the Draft.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on January 25, 2016, 05:20:31 AM
Centurion turret works with Panther and M41 too.

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/drawTanks/Panther_Centurion.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/drawTanks/Panther_Centurion.jpg.html)

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/drawTanks/m41-Centurion1.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/drawTanks/m41-Centurion1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on January 25, 2016, 10:33:20 AM
I was reading about the shortened or lengthened tank hull. To get your width to length ratio back you could widen or narrow the hull accordingly. Either the lengthened or shortened hull has its potential for whiff coolness.

That 183mm gun is a monster! Did they get that off a WW2 cruiser?
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on January 25, 2016, 02:07:46 PM
A variant I wasn't aware of:  the FV 4005 experimental tank destroyer with a 183 mm gun......

Speaking of big-turret tank destroyer variant of Centurion, I would like to go back to Conway for a bit.

The gun used on Conway is said to be the same as the one used on Conqueror and is said to have "lost much of its tactical advantage" with the advent of Royal Ordnance L7.

This reminds me of the People's Liberation Army, who back in the day of standardizing on L7-clone as main battle tank armament still mass-produced 120mm-gun PTZ-89 tank destroyers for fire support against Soviet armours coming down from the north.

I can't seem to find any APDS or APFSDS ammunition for the L1 gun.  Did the L1 gun ever have APDS or APFSDS ammunition?  Or is the lack of APDS and APFSDS ammunition a reason why it ended up getting superseded by the L7?
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 20, 2016, 04:34:54 PM
A variant I wasn't aware of:  the FV 4005 experimental tank destroyer with a 183 mm gun:

([url]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Flickr_-_davehighbury_-_Bovington_Tank_Museum_002.jpg/1598px-Flickr_-_davehighbury_-_Bovington_Tank_Museum_002.jpg[/url])


There is now a 1/35 conversion kit for this:

(http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/GTX_Christmas/header.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on March 06, 2016, 11:12:44 AM
Found along the way of my quest to find inspiration to solve my Leman Russ debacle......
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 09, 2016, 04:51:24 AM
That is the Teledyne Continental Motors Low Profile Turret mounted on a Centurion Mk 5.  This system was developed in the mid 80's as part of the US Army Armored Gun System (AGS) program.  Teledyne developed a lightweight hull for this system which came to be known as the "expeditionary tank."  Teledyne also marketed the low profile turret as an upgrade solution for older vehicles such as the M60, Centurion, T-55 and AMX30.  When that branch of Teledyne (Teledyne Continental Motors General Products Division) was sold to General Dynamics in the mid 90's, GD took the low profile turret and adopted it for the Stryker as the M1128 Mobile Gun System.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 23, 2016, 07:13:16 AM
Some interesting shots showing the Australian Centurion Tanks first arriving:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4i3FvlkIVj0/UiR-knjLS3I/AAAAAAAABqY/Oleua-_Qb3g/s1600/Age+16_10_1951.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZgDY1VxAUTY/UiM0w_IXT1I/AAAAAAAABqM/YZdBz3NCk6g/s1600/te04.jpg)(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oCBEsV-2hyU/UiM0tuyliXI/AAAAAAAABqE/TBVaX6oN5ZQ/s1600/te03.jpg)(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-M707WuZbmgQ/UiM0qNHdmBI/AAAAAAAABp8/XBF7FqUhS0U/s1600/te02.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ocFnSFr-7PQ/UhAt0lCvxFI/AAAAAAAABmM/77W1DUfqOLM/s1600/CCF18122011_00001.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on May 14, 2016, 03:53:55 PM
The so-called Action X turret.

I wonder if its mantlet design is a forerunner of some sort to the one used on Chieftain.

I am also curious about how successful it is- despite the fact that it indeed didn't end up being mass-produced, a slightly reworked version was later used in another project, so I suppose whoever designed the turret must have done something right.

Suitable for all what-ifs involving a Centurion turret  ;)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on May 15, 2016, 10:50:11 AM
That was one of several Centurions which were reworked for the Chieftain MBT project.   They involved working out the internal mantlet and the reclining driver's seat.   They are mentioned in the Squadron/Signal Centurion in Action book, plus the Chieftain MBT book I have (author's name forgotten) which is in storage at the moment.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on May 17, 2016, 12:05:17 AM
That was one of several Centurions which were reworked for the Chieftain MBT project.   They involved working out the internal mantlet and the reclining driver's seat.   They are mentioned in the Squadron/Signal Centurion in Action book, plus the Chieftain MBT book I have (author's name forgotten) which is in storage at the moment.

Question: did they move the co-axial machinegun around?  Are my eyes playing tricks on me?  Or did they just get rid of the machinegun, and the exercise is all just a research project?
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on May 17, 2016, 08:18:55 AM
That was one of several Centurions which were reworked for the Chieftain MBT project.   They involved working out the internal mantlet and the reclining driver's seat.   They are mentioned in the Squadron/Signal Centurion in Action book, plus the Chieftain MBT book I have (author's name forgotten) which is in storage at the moment.

Question: did they move the co-axial machinegun around?  Are my eyes playing tricks on me?  Or did they just get rid of the machinegun, and the exercise is all just a research project?

AIUI it was a research project.  There was no co-ax added to the tank's mantlet.  What I think you believe might be a co-ax - the slot to the right of the mantlet in the upper glacis plate is actually for the gunner's sight.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on May 18, 2016, 09:33:54 AM
Another question- on the Swingfire-augmented tank (shown here (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=2706.msg100266#msg100266)), are the Swingfire box launchers in any way armoured?
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on May 18, 2016, 10:51:07 AM
Another question- on the Swingfire-augmented tank (shown here ([url]http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=2706.msg100266#msg100266[/url])), are the Swingfire box launchers in any way armoured?


I doubt it.  For some reason designers liked to leave their ATGWs mounted on MBTs and other AFVs unarmed in what were essentially "proof-of-concept" vehicles rather than operational ones.   Only the Israelis seem to have put their missiles inside the tank turret, rather than on the outside.  Perhaps they realised how vulnerable a piece of thin, mild metal is in combat?
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on May 18, 2016, 11:41:42 AM
Or, possibly, because it is an augmentation, & thus a secondary weapon system, the costs in time, upgrades, weight & risk to the crew (a missile exploding/burning inside the turret armour is going to be more lethal than if it does so on the outside) of the add-on are not deemed to be worth it & the launch hatches/openings are weak points in the turret.

A tank with an integrated missile system built into it from the start could be another matter entirely. For starters most missile systems could fit into an armoured bustle at the rear of the turret & be raised/elevated to fire (the turret casting/design including armour between the crew compartment & the bustle). This would require a re-arrangement of how most turrets are laid out but could be easily worked into the design, rather than having to fit it ainto an existing lay-out.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on May 19, 2016, 02:48:04 AM
A tank with an integrated missile system built into it from the start could be another matter entirely. For starters most missile systems could fit into an armoured bustle at the rear of the turret & be raised/elevated to fire (the turret casting/design including armour between the crew compartment & the bustle). This would require a re-arrangement of how most turrets are laid out but could be easily worked into the design, rather than having to fit it ainto an existing lay-out.

If I am going for a new turret as an upgrade, which one would you expect to be cheaper, trying to fit a 120mm gun or putting four Swingfire missiles into the bustle?
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on May 19, 2016, 08:37:43 AM
Not really my field of expertise but it would depend on how much redesign work would be needed on the original turret to fit the 120mm vs how much redesign is needed to fit the bustle & missiles.

My guess is that the gun upgrade would be cheaper.

Just slapping 4 unarmoured launcher boxes on the side would be even cheaper, still.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on May 19, 2016, 04:54:24 PM
A new 120mm gun in a Centurion turret would be expensive to build.   You would need a new recoil system and a stronger turret ring to absorb the recoil sufficiently for the turret to remain seated on the vehicle.  You would need stronger traverse and elevation motors, because of the increased mass of the turret.

Adding some ATGWs in an armoured bustle would be considerably less expensive but you'd need to address the balance problems that such a heavy weight would bring, being so far away from the centre of mass of the turret.  You might also require to upgrade the turret rotation motors as well, to ensure that the turret still traverses sufficiently fast enough.

Adding externally mounted ATGWs would be the cheapest option in the short-term but would it be effective in the longer-term?  The missiles would be vulnerable to artillery fragments and small arms.   While they might be effective in the first encounter the enemy would learn to blanket any attacking force with artillery and MG fire to render their missiles impotent or damaged.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Beekster on July 04, 2016, 01:31:34 AM
I spotted the 40m SPAA idea a few pages back.  I'm considering something similar, a mid-1960s hypothetical IDF variant:  Use an AFV Club Meteor-engined Cent hull and the the turret from the Heller AMX-30 DCA.  Perhaps change out the guns; if I want to get radical I could try to fit my own IMI 60mm hypervelocity barrels.  If there's not enough width for that at the trunnions, I could always cut the turret and trunnions in half and add strip stock to widen the turret.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on July 04, 2016, 03:36:53 AM
I spotted the 40m SPAA idea a few pages back.  I'm considering something similar, a mid-1960s hypothetical IDF variant:  Use an AFV Club Meteor-engined Cent hull and the the turret from the Heller AMX-30 DCA.  Perhaps change out the guns; if I want to get radical I could try to fit my own IMI 60mm hypervelocity barrels.  If there's not enough width for that at the trunnions, I could always cut the turret and trunnions in half and add strip stock to widen the turret.


Here's the build pics from the drawing earlier in the thread

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=154.0 (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=154.0)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Story on August 04, 2016, 01:50:27 AM
Didn't see where the thread talked about the South African OLIPHANT 1A. This is a 20 year old build, using a really really old (as in, motorized!) TAMIYA kit as the base and everything else looted from the spare box. The base color is NUTRIA, sort of a South African dirt brown.  South Africans thought the side skirts were more trouble than they were worth, considering the operational terrain, and the front fenders were easily damaged (like the Cuban T55s they faced).

Just noticed the left smoke grenade launcher is missing it's bottom tube. Bush damage, no doubt.
(http://i.imgur.com/rZ8p4sH.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/0xmM5jv.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/UF5Xsiw.jpg)

Background here, for the most part
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/South_Africa/Olifant_MkI.php (http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/South_Africa/Olifant_MkI.php)

IIRC, the South Africans smuggled in the hulls and turrets from the Jordanians, then used an Israeli template to fit an L7 105mm main gun and 12 cylinder diesel drivetrain.

Used in combat against Cuban forces and their friends in Angola.

Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Story on August 04, 2016, 02:11:02 AM
There's also the Israeli mercenary Centurians (equipped with nuclear power plants and laser Gatling guns) of the TEXAS ISRAELI WAR of 1999 timeline.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Texas-Israeli_War:_1999 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Texas-Israeli_War:_1999)

(http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1298782965l/847218.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on October 12, 2016, 07:44:06 PM
Earlier on in the thread there was a suggestion of a US Army Centurion (or at least US markings for Korea) and I was wondering it could actually have happened.

My understanding was the M-24s struggled against the T34/85, the late model M-4 was a pretty good match, while the M-26 overmatched them but were compromised by their mobility in the terrain found in Korea, hence the types withdrawal and replacement with M-4s and M-46s at the earliest opportunity.  At the same time the Centurion developed a very solid reputation for its protection, mobility as well as the accuracy of it's gun, with (apparently) many US infantry units preferring / requesting Centurions in the DFS role when available. 

How about once the issues with the M-26 became apparent Britain was in a position to offer a regiment or brigade worth of Cents to the US for use in Korea.  Possibly these could have been the five regiments worth of Centurions (also ten regiments worth of Comets were planned for the CMF as well) Australia determined they needed for their post war army but never ordered.  In this alt they could have ordered them but made them available to the US for Korean operations. 

Assuming this deployment went well the US could have even developed their own version with US engine and 90mm gun which could become the NATO / MAP standard tank before eventually ending up with a 105mm diesel powered version.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on October 14, 2016, 12:51:22 PM
Centurion Infantry Support Tank armed with the 25pdr/95mm Howitzer
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on October 14, 2016, 02:57:32 PM
Centurion Infantry Support Tank armed with the 25pdr/95mm Howitzer

I will happily stand corrected but I believe the L9 165mm demolition gun on the Centurion AVRE was originally designed as the Close Support counterpart to the 20pdr tank gun, pretty much as the 3" served on the CS versions of 2pdr tanks and the 95mm on CS versions of 6pdr and 75mm tanks.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 15, 2016, 03:14:46 AM
Don't forget the FV3802 which was was a Self-propelled 25-pdr artillery prototype based on the Centurion—engine at the rear as in the gun tank, but only five road wheels per side. The gun was fitted in a barbette with 45° traverse to each side.

(http://s51.radikal.ru/i131/1104/52/f7cceb1493d8.jpg)(http://s41.radikal.ru/i093/1105/6a/fe24ae9a4f0e.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 23, 2016, 04:04:39 AM
Random Idea:  Centurion tank with turret from AMX-13
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on December 14, 2017, 03:55:46 PM
Apparently the Swiss developed their Centurions into a series of turret bunkers. (http://www.fwk.ch/fotos/varia/centurion-bunkerbau/)  Which allowed them to more easily defend the approaches to their country.

This included a specialised version intended to emplace the turrets in the bunker.  Apparently it had suspension which could be lowered to allow it to pass through road tunnels more easily.

(https://i.imgur.com/jbSgGkZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on January 29, 2018, 03:28:48 AM
Apparently the Swiss developed their Centurions into a series of turret bunkers. ([url]http://www.fwk.ch/fotos/varia/centurion-bunkerbau/[/url])  Which allowed them to more easily defend the approaches to their country.

This included a specialised version intended to emplace the turrets in the bunker.  Apparently it had suspension which could be lowered to allow it to pass through road tunnels more easily.

([url]https://i.imgur.com/jbSgGkZ.jpg[/url])


Wow, how interesting  Rickshaw - so please correct me if I'm wrong, but the crane is there to lift and self-deploy the Centurion's turret into a fortification?

M. A. D
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on January 29, 2018, 03:21:33 PM
Basically, yes.  Once emplaced the turret was then built into the fortifications more fully.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 30, 2018, 01:59:46 AM
Kind of like the Heuschrecke 10:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Aberdeen_Tank-Museum-Heuschrecke-10.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7388/12005675384_c34e0cd939_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on January 30, 2018, 06:51:12 AM
Well, I learned something new today! Thanks!
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on July 13, 2018, 11:45:11 PM
Videogame illustration of a what-if Centurion Marksman:
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Twiddle on August 26, 2018, 09:17:21 PM
Heavy APC based on the Centurion ?
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on August 26, 2018, 11:26:21 PM
Heavy APC based on the Centurion ?

My wife's Dad was in the REME, and for a while was attached to the recovery team. He told me he used to drive a recovery Centurion.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on August 27, 2018, 01:31:28 PM
Heavy APC based on the Centurion ?


The Jordanians developed perhaps the best heavy APC MBT converion the Temsah ("Crocodile") vehicle:

(http://www.military-today.com/apc/temsah.jpg)

(http://www.military-today.com/apc/temsah_l12.jpg)

(http://www.military-today.com/apc/temsah_l3.jpg)

(http://www.military-today.com/apc/temsah_l2.jpg)

Basically they turned the Centurion around.  The rear became the front, with the engine and a new superstructure was emplaced over the fighting compartment and a new Glacis was placed over the engine compartment.  The old Glacis had a hatch cut into it and it has a ramp emplaced there.  This overcomes the many problems the Israelis discovered when they converted T-55 hulls to the Achzarit heavy APC.   The Jordanian method ensures that the vehicle has heavier protection conferred by the Engine and transmission while making sure the infantry don't have to get over the rear drive shaft to exit the vehicle.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on August 27, 2018, 06:08:06 PM
Sorry, mate, 3 of the images don't show - just image icons with red crosses through them. :icon_crap:
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on August 27, 2018, 07:49:13 PM
Fixed now.  Found a better source for the images.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on August 28, 2018, 04:29:36 PM
Ta! :smiley:

I like that one! 8)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on August 29, 2018, 10:22:04 AM
Ta! :smiley:

I like that one! 8)

It is a nice one, isn't it?  Wouldn't be too difficult to recreate in 1/72 or 1/35.  ;)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on August 29, 2018, 10:33:58 AM


([url]http://www.military-today.com/apc/temsah_l2.jpg[/url])

Basically they turned the Centurion around.  The rear became the front, with the engine and a new superstructure was emplaced over the fighting compartment and a new Glacis was placed over the engine compartment. 


Kind of Merkava-1-ish looking
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on August 29, 2018, 10:43:54 AM
Has anyone acquired the HobbyBoss Oliphant?  Looking forward to seeing what that kit offers.  The squared off turret is intriguing and at first glance it made me think of a Leopard II turrent mated to a Centurion.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on August 30, 2018, 11:16:39 AM
Quote
The Multi-purpose Armored Platform or MAP heavy armored personnel carrier was developed by King Abdulah II Design and Development Bureau (KADDB). It is a conversion of Tariq main battle tank (upgraded version of Centurion). Jordanian Armed Forces ordered four MAP heavy APCs for delivery in 2014. More of these vehicles are expected to be ordered in the future.

   The main mission of heavy armored personnel carriers is to support mechanized formations. On the battlefield these heavily armored vehicles move alongside main battle tanks. Such machines are less vulnerable to anti-tank fire than conventional APCs or IFVs. The MAP can be used to carry troops and ammunition. Alternatively it can be used as armored ambulance or command post vehicle.

   Jordanian Army has short of 300 Tariq tanks in storage. These tanks were obtained from United Kingdom. The Centurion was developed during the World War II. It entered service with the British Army in 1946. Despite all upgrades this tank is out dated and is no longer suitable for frontline service. Chassis of Jordanian Tariq tanks are being re-used for heavy armored personnel carriers and other armored vehicles.

   During conversion process the turret has been removed. Vehicle was widened by 45 cm. Front and rear hatches were added. Rear exit hatch resembles that of the Israeli Achzarit heavy armored personnel carrier. It is unusual feature of the armored vehicle to have a front hatch for dismounts.

   It is worth noting that in 2001 KADDB revealed a Temsah heavy APC. This vehicle is also based on Centurion tank. However Temsah had front and rear end of the Centurion swapped in order to create a troop compartment at the rear. So the vehicle was driving backwards comparing with original Centurion. It seems that Temsah is no longer marketed by the KADDB. In comparison the MAP has a standard layout of the Centurion with the engine compartment at the rear. It is an entirely new vehicle.

   The MAP is much better protected than M113 APC, currently used by Jordanian Armed Forces. The new Jordanian heavy APC has a low-profile hull. Hull sides are covered by massive side skirts. The MAP has level of protection similar to that of main battle tanks. Add-on passive or explosive reactive armor can be fitted.

   Vehicle is armed with remotely controlled station, fitted with 12.7-mm machine gun and Kornet-E anti-tank missile launcher. There is also a 7.62-mm machine gun on a different mount, operated by vehicle commander.

   The MAP has a crew of two and carries 11 fully-equipped troops. Troops enter and leave the vehicle via front or rear doors. Also there are roof hatches for observation, firing and emergency exit.

   This Jordanian heavy APC is powered by Continental AVDS-1790 supercharged diesel engine, developing 900 hp. The same engine was used on various US main battle tanks as well as Tariq MBT. Engine is mated to Allison automatic transmission. Maximum range on fuel is only 200 km.

   KADDB also developed variants of the MAP such as 120-mm mortar carrier and ammunition carrier.

[Source (http://www.military-today.com/apc/map.htm)]

(http://www.military-today.com/apc/map.jpg)

(http://www.military-today.com/apc/map_l1.jpg)


Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Twiddle on September 23, 2018, 02:37:03 PM
Bundeswehr Raketenjagdpanzer Centurion ?
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 24, 2018, 08:57:39 AM
Bundeswehr Raketenjagdpanzer Centurion ?

Or even just a Bundeswehr Centurion MBT
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on September 24, 2018, 09:08:27 AM
Bundeswehr Raketenjagdpanzer Centurion ?

Or even just a Bundeswehr Centurion MBT

Or Budweiser version.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 24, 2018, 10:14:00 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on September 30, 2018, 05:16:46 PM
(http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/attachments/ammo_101.jpg)

Ordnance BL 6.5″ Mk. I Demolition Gun HESH round.  The round beside it is a 25 Pdr. Round.

The Ordnance BL 6.5″ Mk. I Demolition Gun became known as the 165mm Demolition gun, as mounted on the Centurion AVRE and the US M60 variant, the M728.

More details about the gun and it's development can be found here (http://overlord-wot.blogspot.com/2014/03/setting-record-straight.html) if you're interested.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on October 01, 2018, 11:38:30 AM
^ You sure? The 25 pdr was 88mm, call it 1/2 the diameter of the 165mm round?
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on October 01, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
^ You sure? The 25 pdr was 88mm, call it 1/2 the diameter of the 165mm round?

No, I am not sure.  That though, is the caption on the photo, on the website linked to.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 16, 2019, 05:21:07 AM
Can someone advise me what variant this is:

(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner029/aec_bridge_zps3jstnrhl.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on June 16, 2019, 07:42:34 AM
Alas, not me. But it got me wondering ... was the FV3804 Gun Limber (Ammunition) armoured?
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on June 16, 2019, 09:45:35 AM
Looks like a trials vehicle for a light recovery version.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on June 16, 2019, 09:49:44 AM
The image showing the comparison between the 165mm round and a smaller projectile is labeled as being a 2pdr6pdr*/57mm in the image that Rickshaw shared above.  That puts things a bit more in perspective. 





*Edit to correct my mistake that was brought to my attention by JCF.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on June 18, 2019, 07:54:20 AM
2pdr bore is 1.575" so 40mm.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on June 18, 2019, 10:20:53 AM
Thanks Jon, I was thing of the 6pdr while typing that out.  Brain farts again.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on June 18, 2019, 11:41:06 AM
Thanks Jon, I was thing of the 6pdr while typing that out.  Brain farts again.

Happens to all of us ... Well, me, anyway! :icon_crap:
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Story on May 06, 2020, 03:58:23 AM
Oh good Lord, they're channeling DethKlok - which works.

(https://i2.wp.com/metaladdicts.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/sabaton-tank-e1559042022971.jpg?w=747&ssl=1)

...cause trust me on this, your average tank crew be like ->
(https://media.giphy.com/media/tDFfAG1vTHfGw/giphy-facebook_s.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on May 13, 2020, 05:25:08 PM
Bundeswehr Raketenjagdpanzer Centurion ?

Or even just a Bundeswehr Centurion MBT

In reality, wasn't the Centurion the preferred tank of the Bundeswehr? I think I read somewhere something along the lines of because of the Korean War, Britain couldn't fill the Bundeswehr orders, or something to that effect.....

M.A.D
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on July 18, 2021, 08:19:29 AM
Real World
Constant scale: 1 pix ----> 1 cm

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/Centurion_series.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/e58f1c54-aee2-42c9-bc15-f72ec22af374/p/5be1b865-9938-49c0-80d6-1471a820909c)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Logan Hartke on July 19, 2021, 04:22:23 AM
In reality, wasn't the Centurion the preferred tank of the Bundeswehr? I think I read somewhere something along the lines of because of the Korean War, Britain couldn't fill the Bundeswehr orders, or something to that effect.....

I believe that was the case for both Switzerland and Sweden that would lead to the Pz 61/68 and the Strv 103. I think both would have been largely content to order more Centurions had British production been able to meet the short term demand.

Also, a lot of people don't realize that many of NATO's Centurions were actually bought by the US as part of the MDAP aid.

For example: (https://www.facebook.com/tanksbeingtanks/posts/3407820739276647)

Quote
When the tank were purchased both by Danish and Netherlands government, they were indeed purchased from the British Government, however this purchase was done by the Economic Cooperation agency of foreign service of the United States of America.

This wasn't just a "backchannel" deal, but an official deal; Winston Churchill forwarded the proposal to buy the Centurion to the Secretary  of  State for War, Anthony Head and let them distribute these tank to equip other NATO countries under the Mutual Defense assistance program (MDAP) sponsored by USA while also giving possibilities that USA itself can use the tank if they want to. Under Truman's leadership, the US Government agreed to purchase between 500-1,000 Centurion Mark 3 under the MDAP act 1949.

Each unit of Centurion costed $210,000 which also include the additional cost in the rearmament  program  for the  country  concerned. At least 216 Centurion tanks were given to the Danish between 1952-1954 and 591 Centurion were given to the Netherlands between 1953-1956.

In short, the Danish and Netherlands Centurion are legally considered as United States of America's property, making them officially an American tank. This is also why many of the Dutch Centurion ended up in Israeli Defense force service later on, since they were returned back to USA, and they gave this tank to the IDF.

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on July 19, 2021, 11:05:13 AM
... Also, a lot of people don't realize that many of NATO's [fill in blank] were actually bought by the US as part of the MDAP aid...

There's a potentially useful macro!
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Logan Hartke on July 20, 2021, 04:41:13 AM
Indeed! Although certainly rarer with non-US equipment!
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on July 21, 2021, 12:49:24 PM
In reality, wasn't the Centurion the preferred tank of the Bundeswehr? I think I read somewhere something along the lines of because of the Korean War, Britain couldn't fill the Bundeswehr orders, or something to that effect.....

I believe that was the case for both Switzerland and Sweden that would lead to the Pz 61/68 and the Strv 103. I think both would have been largely content to order more Centurions had British production been able to meet the short term demand.

Also, a lot of people don't realize that many of NATO's Centurions were actually bought by the US as part of the MDAP aid.

For example: (https://www.facebook.com/tanksbeingtanks/posts/3407820739276647)

Quote
When the tank were purchased both by Danish and Netherlands government, they were indeed purchased from the British Government, however this purchase was done by the Economic Cooperation agency of foreign service of the United States of America.

This wasn't just a "backchannel" deal, but an official deal; Winston Churchill forwarded the proposal to buy the Centurion to the Secretary  of  State for War, Anthony Head and let them distribute these tank to equip other NATO countries under the Mutual Defense assistance program (MDAP) sponsored by USA while also giving possibilities that USA itself can use the tank if they want to. Under Truman's leadership, the US Government agreed to purchase between 500-1,000 Centurion Mark 3 under the MDAP act 1949.

Each unit of Centurion costed $210,000 which also include the additional cost in the rearmament  program  for the  country  concerned. At least 216 Centurion tanks were given to the Danish between 1952-1954 and 591 Centurion were given to the Netherlands between 1953-1956.

In short, the Danish and Netherlands Centurion are legally considered as United States of America's property, making them officially an American tank. This is also why many of the Dutch Centurion ended up in Israeli Defense force service later on, since they were returned back to USA, and they gave this tank to the IDF.

Cheers,

Logan

Thanks Logan, that's some interesting information 👍

MAD
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on July 21, 2021, 02:32:51 PM
Just stumbled across this:

Quote
America was keen to have Centurions supplied to Denmark and the Netherlands under the Mutual Defence Assistance Program, as production of the M48 Patton would not start until April 1952. A Mk 3 cost £31,000 or £44,000 with ammunition..

Also of interest in relation to the M48:

Quote
The offensive of Pakistan's 1st Armoured Division was blunted at the Battle of Asal Uttar on 10 September. Six Pakistani armored regiments were opposed by three Indian armoured regiments. One of these regiments, 3 Cavalry, fielded 45 Centurion tanks. The Centurion, with its 20-pounder gun and heavy armour, proved to be more than a match for the M47 and M48 Pattons.[47] On the other side, when Pakistani Army armoured division primary composed of M47 Pattons and M48 Pattons, they proved to be only able to penetrate a few of the Centurion tanks, as witnessed in the Battle of Chawinda in the Sialkot sector. A post-war US study of the tank battles in South Asia concluded that the Patton's armor could, in fact, be penetrated by the 20-pounder tank gun (84 mm) of the Centurion (later replaced by the even-more successful L7 105mm gun on the Mk. 7 version which India also possessed)

MAD
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on August 02, 2021, 11:00:11 AM
Another french proposal for IDF: AMX-32 turret. 8)

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/AMX-32_turret_Israel.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/e58f1c54-aee2-42c9-bc15-f72ec22af374/p/b2859adf-b3de-44f6-afd9-af7ad6b179f9)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on November 13, 2021, 10:25:09 AM
Centurions raised by plugin from M4

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/Centurion_M4.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/e58f1c54-aee2-42c9-bc15-f72ec22af374/p/e6e74f1d-fd1e-4bb5-a8c7-373658c1153c)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on July 31, 2022, 06:38:45 PM
This is supposedly a drawing of the Israeli study (in cooperation with Britian) into incorporating the Royal Ordnance L11 120mm gun into their Centurion ('Sh'ot-Kal') fleet. I don't know much about the program or how accurate the drawing, but would appreciate if anyone has more details into this Israeli study, if it in fact it really existed.

MAD
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 01, 2022, 02:59:05 AM
Well there was the FV 4004 Self-propelled gun based on a Centurion 3 hull with a larger calibre 120 mm L1 gun in a turret made from rolled plate.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/FV_4004_tankfest_2021.JPG/1599px-FV_4004_tankfest_2021.JPG)

And the Olifant Mk 2 was proposed with a 120mm gun.

Where did you find the image?

Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dadlamassu on August 01, 2022, 04:32:28 PM
Can someone advise me what variant this is:

(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner029/aec_bridge_zps3jstnrhl.jpg)

Looks to me like someone has added the top of a Foden 6x6 Recovery Truck onto a Centuron chassis.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 01, 2022, 09:16:51 PM
Well there was the FV 4004 Self-propelled gun based on a Centurion 3 hull with a larger calibre 120 mm L1 gun in a turret made from rolled plate.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/FV_4004_tankfest_2021.JPG/1599px-FV_4004_tankfest_2021.JPG)

And the Olifant Mk 2 was proposed with a 120mm gun.

Where did you find the image?

Thanks for your reply GTX
I found the image on my hard drive and have had no luck finding more about it 😔

MAD
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on August 10, 2022, 03:54:44 AM
This less 'inspiration' and more of a question. I'm hoping to gets some clarity on the Centurion Low Profile Turret update proposal - especially on dating.

Waaay back in Reply #87, Greg mentioned that Teledyne converted a Centurion Mk.5 hull as a Centurion LPT demonstrator prototype: https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=42d418e91f1017d0a2a793ffb112a01f&topic=178.msg104413#msg104413

According to some sources, Teledyne approached Canada with this Centurion update proposal. That proposal involved installation of a Teledyne Continental powerplant, an applique-armour package for the hull, and the Low-Profile Turret. I'm not sure of the date of this proposal but the LPT comes from the early-to-mid 1980s. And there is the problem with this proposal.

Krauss-Maffei handed over the first Leopard C1s in June 1978. So why was Teledyne proposing a Centurion update to DND when the Leopard C1 had already replaced Canada's Cents (at least half a decade prior)? It doesn't make any sense.

As an aside, once Canada fielded Leopard 1s - first Bundeswehr loaners, then Leopard C1s - the 'worn-out' Centurions were sold off to Israel. There, the IDF ugraded some of them to Sho't Kal standards. Ironically, this included installing the same Teledyne Continental Motors (TCM) AVDS-1790-2A diesel engine [1] proposed for the Centurion LPT conversion. However, this engine made more sense for Israel - partially for commonality for their M60/Magach fleet, partially to encourage the US Congress to fund the upgrade through foreign aid.

_________________________________________

[1] Although the IDF uses an Allison CD 850-6 transmission, not the originally proposed 'TCM 304' automatic transmission (which, in reality, was just a Teledyne rebranding of the German Renk RK 304S).
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 11, 2022, 12:46:15 AM
According to here (https://canadianmilitaryhistory.ca/from-centurion-to-leopard-1a2-by-frank-maas/), the Canadians considered a "Centurion modernization along Israel lines" in the mid-1970s before deciding on the Leopard.  I wonder if that is the basis for what you have seen and that it was not in the '80s?

As an aside, I also see the mention of Scorpion light tanks as well - there's another whiff idea. ;)
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on August 11, 2022, 02:07:38 AM
Greg: The mention I saw was definitely for the Teledyne upgrade package. That's what confused me.

Thanks for the CMH article ... plenty of good info in there.

I wasn't aware that the (Poppa) Trudeau government was pushing the Scorpion. (I suppose that was for turret commonality with the AVGP Cougar - which was originally meant to be a wheeled 'tank trainer'.) As you say, a Canadian Scorpion makes for an interesting whiff - 'recce by fire' alongside the Leopard C1s perhaps?

On air-portability, there's long been a CF fixation on 'just fly it in' in preference to strategic stockpiling. Underneath Trudeau's Scorpion push, though, would have been a GoC determination not to buy American M60s. In any case, the Leopard C1s proved an excellent choice. Israel had the incentive to make use of Centurions for decades, Canada did not.

The Teledyne LPT is a whole 'nother thing. It makes for great whiff-fodder ... but nine ready rounds! Yikes  :o
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on August 19, 2022, 10:59:31 PM

Krauss-Maffei handed over the first Leopard C1s in June 1978. So why was Teledyne proposing a Centurion update to DND when the Leopard C1 had already replaced Canada's Cents (at least half a decade prior)? It doesn't make any sense.

The Cents would have been phased out as the Leopards began to arrive, so there would be a period where they could have been modernized and replaced the Shermans in the Militia armoured regiments.

As an aside, I can look out my window and see the Reserve Service Battalion's LSVW - a truck that has been available for auction purchase for a few years now, while versions are still operational. Perhaps the timing of Teledyne's offer was based on similar circumstances?

Talk about a great What-If though! RCD Centurion Mk XII LPT (D) in the FRY.
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on August 21, 2022, 05:59:35 AM
Graeme: So, with the Leopard C1 fully in service, the Centurions would have been 'put out to pasture' (until their sale to Israel is agreed to and/or approved by Ottawa). That would make a kind of sense out of the Teledyne upgrade proposal.

I like your upgrade the Centurions for the Militia idea. Hmmm ...

[Edit] I saw one source that claims that the Leopard C1 purchase was conditional upon Krauss-Maffei take the Canadian Centurions as 'trade-ins'. If true, Israel bought those Centurions from German brokers - not directly from Canada. Anyway, only a minor fly in any whiffing ointment  :smiley:
Title: Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on August 23, 2022, 04:39:05 AM
Like the Swedes Strv 104 Centurion - officially MBT role phased out by Leopard 2 in 1992, yet, some Strv-104 were still in service as late as Y2K!