Author Topic: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 186276 times)

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2013, 11:45:19 AM »
Yeah, thus I figured that I might need a Trilander frame.

Looks like that opinion has just been reinforced......
Mayhaps a Trilander with the piston engines replaced by suitable small turboprops?  Perhaps something from the high-power end of the Allison (now RR) 250 family of engines?  Three of those would definitely give more power without a large, if any, increase in weight.  As I remember, an Allison 250 weighs what a Lycoming IO320 does and produces twice the horsepower.  The one aircraft Great Lakes re-engined that way was a real screamer; not much faster (hard to push a biplane that much faster) but really able to zoom climb and do spectacular takeoffs and maneuvers.

Offline AGRA

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2013, 03:45:29 PM »
For a whiff story I’m scoping I’ve introduced an external player (an alternate Australia) who have a mutual security agreement with Portugal into the 1961 Indian-Portuguese Goa War. While the Indian Army still overruns Goa the RAN’s fleet carrier (Victorious class) operating in the Arabian Sea promptly sinks most of the Indian Navy. Including their then brand new (to them) aircraft carrier INS Vikrant.

This of course really upsets India and they turn to the Soviet Union to build a replacement (and other things). According to Gollevainen from Shipbucket the most recent Soviet carrier design at that time was the Project 85.

Quote
Soviet carrier plans did not resume until Stalin’s death in 1953. Two pre-project designs where made in 1954. One by TsKB-17 and other by the navy’s internal design studies organisation TSNII-45. Each of these designs carried 40 aircrafts. TsKB-17 version would have displaced 30,555t, with speed of 34 knots. It was provably called project 85 which bears strong similarity to US Essex class (after SCB-27C) and French Foch class. TsNII-45 suggested 21,000t with speed of 32, 5 knots. These plans came their end in 1955 when Soviets new premier Khrushcev who fired Kuznetsov, officially because the disastrous sinking of the battleship Novorossiysk but more likely because Kuznetsov was strong supporter of large surface oriented fleet. Khrushcev had other plans.




So they brush of this design and build it for India to replace the Vikrant.

I am at a bit of quandary as to what air wing it would have? And hope anyone here can help. Could some of the Soviet fighters of the early 1960s be converted to carrier operation? There is the Yak 36 but the Indian Navy at the time has conventional carrier aircraft. They would still have some of their Hawker Sea Hawks (and more were brought from West Germany) and their Breguet Alize force for an air wing. But no doubt would want more modern types from the Soviet Union to go with their new carrier.

If anyone has any ideas they would be greatly appreciated.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2013, 05:44:03 PM »
Victorious class?  As in the modernised HMS Victorious?  Interesting, how about Implacable and Indefatigable, there were offered to the RAN during WWII weren't they?

Offline AGRA

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #78 on: March 26, 2013, 06:23:22 PM »
I don’t want to give too much away as I’m already behind one whiff world on this forum (which is nearing completion as I’ve abandoned any artwork and just concentrated on the words) which is our Opportunity Cost. In this scenario I have the Alternate Australia being incorporated as an independent nation earlier and with far greater domestic military capability in the 19th century. So by WWI the RAN has a fleet of two King Edward VI pre dreadnaught battleships, two Invincible class battlecruisers and two Neptune class battleships. The war survivors of this fleet had to be given up as part of the Washington Naval Treaty. But this RAN had very good reason to require a local based capital ship force so is sub allocated two battleships and a carrier from the British Empire allotment. During WWII they take delivery of the two ‘Implacable’ class carriers which had always been built for RAN use (and therefore were never called Implacable and Indefatigable). Since they had a pre-existing fleet carrier it was part of the war time expansion of the RAN. Post war they were kept in service and rebuilt in the 1950s along the lines of HMS Victorious and flying air wings of Grumman Tigers, Trackers and Tracers with the ASW planes frequently replaced by Marine Corps Boeing F8Bs. Hence the name Victorious class because I don’t want to tell you their RAN name at the moment.

But I’m still at a huge loss to imagine a Soviet supplied 1960s carrier air wing. Indian Naval Aviation would only lose eight Sea Hawks and six Alizes with the sinking of INS Vikrant. They brought plenty more Sea Hawks during the early 60s from the RN and German Marineflieger (74 all up by 1966) and a second batch of Alizes in 67 (lots of attrition flying jets from light fleet carriers). But really with the move to Soviet technology they should have a Soviet air wing. None of the regular Soviet aircraft of the time (Su-7, Mig-21, etc) are remotely carrier suitable. I might have to get out my copies of Soviet Secret Projects but they are inside a box inside a pile of boxes.

Offline AGRA

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #79 on: March 26, 2013, 07:49:23 PM »
Well I didn't get out the Soviet Secret Projects book but I did have a look at my Warbird Tech MiG-21 book and there was the answer on page 55. The MiG Ye-8:



Which was developed as a SARH missile firing interceptor for the Soviet requirement that resulted in the MiG-23. But it had a new engine that blew up and ruined the project. But was flying in 62 and a possible basis for a rapid project to field a naval fighter for the Indians. With the older R11 engine it wouldn't be as fast and high flying as the MiG-23 but it would still be highly responsive compared to all other Soviet fighters of the time. The canards could be powered to help control attitude for landing and it had blown flaps which could be extended to a full blown wing, slats, etc. The big radar installation means it can have a useful sea search mode and cockpit view is astounding by Mig-21 and MiG-23 standards.

Now need to find a maritime support aircraft platform. Unless anyone has any better ideas for a fighter? Before the Ye-8 page was turned I was thinking of a MiG-21 with a new high wing with variable incidence like the Vought Crusader. Plus there is of course the Yak-36. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #80 on: March 26, 2013, 08:30:08 PM »
I don’t want to give too much away as I’m already behind one whiff world on this forum (which is nearing completion as I’ve abandoned any artwork and just concentrated on the words) which is our Opportunity Cost. In this scenario I have the Alternate Australia being incorporated as an independent nation earlier and with far greater domestic military capability in the 19th century. So by WWI the RAN has a fleet of two King Edward VI pre dreadnaught battleships, two Invincible class battlecruisers and two Neptune class battleships. The war survivors of this fleet had to be given up as part of the Washington Naval Treaty. But this RAN had very good reason to require a local based capital ship force so is sub allocated two battleships and a carrier from the British Empire allotment. During WWII they take delivery of the two ‘Implacable’ class carriers which had always been built for RAN use (and therefore were never called Implacable and Indefatigable). Since they had a pre-existing fleet carrier it was part of the war time expansion of the RAN. Post war they were kept in service and rebuilt in the 1950s along the lines of HMS Victorious and flying air wings of Grumman Tigers, Trackers and Tracers with the ASW planes frequently replaced by Marine Corps Boeing F8Bs. Hence the name Victorious class because I don’t want to tell you their RAN name at the moment.

But I’m still at a huge loss to imagine a Soviet supplied 1960s carrier air wing. Indian Naval Aviation would only lose eight Sea Hawks and six Alizes with the sinking of INS Vikrant. They brought plenty more Sea Hawks during the early 60s from the RN and German Marineflieger (74 all up by 1966) and a second batch of Alizes in 67 (lots of attrition flying jets from light fleet carriers). But really with the move to Soviet technology they should have a Soviet air wing. None of the regular Soviet aircraft of the time (Su-7, Mig-21, etc) are remotely carrier suitable. I might have to get out my copies of Soviet Secret Projects but they are inside a box inside a pile of boxes.
If I remember my Australian history correctly the colonies were already looking to some form of federation prior to 1850 but this was short circuited by the gold rush(s) or more specifically the chaos, mass relocation of populations and unexpected immigration trigger by said rush(s).
An easy way to circumvent this disruption and derailing of federation would have been to better control the gold reserves and ensure the country got its fair share.  Easier said than done though, perhaps a military intervention.

On the Soviet aircraft, how about an evovled MIG 19 or a YAK-28 derivative?

Offline AGRA

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #81 on: March 26, 2013, 09:24:30 PM »
On the Soviet aircraft, how about an evovled MIG 19 or a YAK-28 derivative?

MiG-19 had excellent take off run so probably could be made carrier compatible but is till old school for 1960s. The Yak-28 is interesting but looks too big for a <30,000 tonne carrier. I'm firming on the Ye-8 as the "MiG-24" and a reboot of the Tu-91. The delivery of the aircraft isn't super rushed by Soviet standards as the ship needs to be built and the Indians still have an air wing. I'm looking at orders in 62 with ship commissioning in 68 and operational air wing with new aircraft by 70.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #82 on: March 27, 2013, 02:51:36 PM »
What about a Ye-8 given a Su-17 style VG wing for better carrier performance?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2013, 12:34:02 AM »
What about a Ye-8 given a Su-17 style VG wing for better carrier performance?
So, a cross of Ye-8 with a wing that's a mix of Ye-2 and scaled-down Su-17?  That could be interesting indeed.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #84 on: April 08, 2013, 12:55:01 PM »
I once heard a comment saying that Hermes lost its Type 984 radar because politicians want to play up its role as a "commando carrier" and their aversion to conventional aircraft carriers, and that Type 984, despite its bulk and weight, was actually pretty good and an effective 3D radar.

Which led me to wonder about one thing- what would happen to the sensor suite of Hermes if it stayed a fleet carrier (maybe they decided that logistic commonality of having carriers large and small trumps the handicap of a small airwing on Hermes; or maybe the P.1154 did go on-line)?  Would it have kept the Type 984 throughout its career, or would the radar still have been replaced with something with a modern spec. somewhere down the road?

Thanks in advance.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2013, 06:37:56 AM »
Interesting thought:  Brazil buys PA2 Carrier
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #86 on: May 01, 2013, 06:28:24 AM »
What about a Ye-8 given a Su-17 style VG wing for better carrier performance?
Or what about a Viggen-type aproach with the navalised Ye-8 - aka even larger canards to improve STOL cabability on a Soviet carrier! After all the weight and complication of the VG-wing arrangement was (and would be) a penalty and complication (even to the later MiG-23 Flogger (and in that case most VG-wing designed aircraft)). Plus I don't know if the Soviet's would have been able to master the steam catapult system for it's early carriers. So a Viggen-type approach would improve STOL, ease complication and maintanance aboard it's carriers!
Just a thought!!

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #87 on: August 31, 2013, 11:22:45 PM »
Resuscitation here.

Ok late WWII the UK was planning their post war fleet which included the dominion contributions.  One of the plans was to replace the traditional colonial cruiser presence with smaller number of infinitely more capable light fleet carriers employing general purpose air groups capable of limited power projection, air and surface defence and ASW.  Sea Fury and Fireflys flying from the Colossus and Majestic CVLs were a start and the later Sea hawk, Sea Venom and Gannet were a suitable follow on with the Short Seamew also available. 

To my knowledge the carriers were never employed in this fashion, however if they were and were evolved and then standardised in NATO as aircraft cruisers CLV, CAV, CBV we could have seen a continuous development of US, UK and other European aircraft cruisers through until the development of the SCS, Invincible, Garibaldi, PA75 etc.

The first ships would have been converted Independence, Saipan, Colossus and Majestic class carriers.  They would have incorporated improved radars, perhaps sonar and command and control facilities.  Their air defence capabilities would have been updated as much as possible perhaps to include Tartar or similar. 

The 1950s would have seen new ships (still around the same size) being built, designed with an area air defence missile system and facilities to operate light fighter attack aircraft in addition to ASW aircraft.

The 1960s there would have been 3D radars, stand off ASW weapons and ASW helos in place of the fixed wing ASW but maybe with the addition of a small number of fixed wing AEW aircraft to support the embarked fighters. 

Now in the fifties the fighters are easy, Sea hawks, Sea Venoms, Panthers, Banshees and may be even Furys with Skyhawks a no brainer to follow, but what to use for the 60s where Mig 21 were being flogged to all and sundry?  How about evolved Gnats and F-5s?  Folland proposed a variety of evolved Gnats including twin engines with after burners and variable geometry wings and the Northrop Fang Fighter, which led to the F-5, started out a a naval fighter.

Thoughts.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #88 on: September 01, 2013, 12:00:51 AM »
Well the F-8 Crusader's a pretty fair bet. With a few mods to reduce the landing speed, the French managed to operate them from Clemenceau and Foch, and they were only about 35,000 tons.

I don't support the idea of putting much fixed armament, and certainly not space-eaters like big SAMs on carriers. you have a very limited number of decks capable of fixed-wing aviation, so they should be optimised for it to the nth degree. Put SAMs, ASuMs, flag facilities etc... on the escorting cruisers/destroyers that can position themselves to use them better anyway.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #89 on: September 01, 2013, 12:13:55 AM »
The original thinking was they would have minimal if any escort, there were to be the spiritual replacement for the station cruiser.  So imagine a destroyer and frigate, also imagine as from after the Suez they would have embarked a RM force including helos.  Imagine 6 ASW helos, up to a dozen fighters a couple of AEW aircraft (maybe) and half a dozen transport helos for a total of between 20 and 30 aircraft.  Basically I am thinking about a class that is not a carrier persay anymore rather a cruiser with aircraft that eventually morphs into a modern Harrier  (then F-35B) carrier.  This ship would in the NATO wotld be an escort to strike carriers and amphibious units rather than be escorted its self.  It would perhaps for the centre of a surface action or escort group.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #90 on: September 01, 2013, 12:43:58 AM »
Isn't this what the USMC operate ?

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #91 on: September 01, 2013, 12:48:48 AM »
For countering MiG-21's, Northrop's N-285B would be perfect.  It was designed as a trainer/light fighter for the USN to deal with their criticisms of the F-5/T-38 for carrier duty and would serve admirably.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #92 on: September 01, 2013, 01:45:26 AM »
The original thinking was they would have minimal if any escort, there were to be the spiritual replacement for the station cruiser.  So imagine a destroyer and frigate, also imagine as from after the Suez they would have embarked a RM force including helos.  Imagine 6 ASW helos, up to a dozen fighters a couple of AEW aircraft (maybe) and half a dozen transport helos for a total of between 20 and 30 aircraft.  Basically I am thinking about a class that is not a carrier persay anymore rather a cruiser with aircraft that eventually morphs into a modern Harrier  (then F-35B) carrier.  This ship would in the NATO wotld be an escort to strike carriers and amphibious units rather than be escorted its self.  It would perhaps for the centre of a surface action or escort group.

The thing is, they'd still be a big, valuable ship full of valuable aircraft. The loss of one would be a major blow for any NATO navy except possibly the USA (and they wouldn't take it lightly either). I can't see such a ship going anywhere remotely dangerous without, at least, a AAW escort and an ASW escort. In any case, it won't be staying on station long without a replenishment ship, and who's going to escort that?

Also, having your major defensive weapons on escorts multiplies their effectiveness. If the AAW ship can be pushed out 10 miles up the air-threat axis, then it starts swatting the air raid 10 miles further out and the carrier gets more time to turn away from the attack and open up the range. Likewise, if the carrier can turn away from a submarine contact while the ASW escort prosecutes it, then every minute the sub spends maneuvering against the escort, the safer the carrier is.

Tartar and ASROC were very flexible systems that (in stark contrast to UK systems) showed themselves capable of being re-fitted to, and operated successfully from, all manner of ships. The French, for instance, re-fitted some of their T47 destroyers with Tartar and some with Malafon, while ASROC replaced torpedo tubes on many a wartime destroyer. It's my opinion that the RN's Daring class could and should have been re-fitted with Tartar, and damned useful they'd have been too!
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #93 on: September 01, 2013, 02:58:39 AM »
Anything beyond just making a quick point will involve a flotilla of ships anyway since WWII.

I remember there to be a light weight Sea Dart system utilizing box launchers, too.  Smaller escorts could have at least gone for that although Mk 13 and Mk 22 are probably still a better choice if the said escorts are at least bigger than, say, WWII-vintage Gearing class.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #94 on: September 01, 2013, 03:04:44 AM »
The problem with Lightweight Sea Dart was that however light the launcher, you still needed a very large target tracking radar to exploit it's range, given the low gain of the missile's interferometer aerial system. You could use a smaller radar, but then you might as well use Tartar/Standard SM-1 and not have to pay for the Sea Dart's ramjet system.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #95 on: September 01, 2013, 06:50:59 AM »
Isn't this what the USMC operate ?

Yes, remove the dock and most of the 1700-1800 Marines and their vehicles and you save a considerable amount of size and displacement.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #96 on: September 01, 2013, 07:10:35 AM »
I am working off the UK concept of CVLs replacing station / colonial cruisers post war.  They would have a small general purpose air group and minimal escort, therefore the need to carry some of their own defensive weaponry, if the proverbial ever hit the fan they would hang back and leave it too the strike carriers in their carrier battle groups or even form part of the escort for said group.

Basically I am just toying with how this would have worked from the advent of jets through until the arrival of the Sea harrier and AV-8B+.  With the F-35b every LHD and LHA potentially becomes a highly capable CVL.  The concept is flawed but if it had happened it would have generated the need for suitable aircraft that in turn would have made carrier aviation more affordable for medium powers to retain.  With suitable aircraft available, designed to operate off small carriers then there is a greater chance replacements would have been built for the existing war built carriers.

As an aside I believe the Gnat would have fit in the hangers of HMS Implacable and Indefatigable, so a navalised Gnat for the conceptual CLV could also have been the saviour of the Indefatigables.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #97 on: September 01, 2013, 08:25:01 AM »
Isn't this what the USMC operate ?

Yes, remove the dock and most of the 1700-1800 Marines and their vehicles and you save a considerable amount of size and displacement.

Yes and no: USMC amphibious ships (even the pure LPHs) are/were much slower than a fleet carrier, so they'd generate less wind over deck for fixed-wing ops and wouldn't be fast enough to escort strike carriers. Speed was also a limitation in the Colossus/Majestic class as well. Your multi-role light carrier would need to be a 30 knot "fleet" carrier first and foremost, with a proportion of aviation/accomodation/stores space devoted to trooping operations.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

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Offline Weaver

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #98 on: September 01, 2013, 08:38:47 AM »
If we're considering navalised Gnats for these ships, why not navalised Fiat G.91s too?

Although the G.91 is generally considered a strike aircraft, it's actually no less of a "fighter" than a Gnat Mk.1, with high-subsonic performance, an Orpheus engine, guns and no radar. It also has better rough-field capabiltiy than a Gnat, which implies to me (though I havn't got the figures) that it's landing speed is lower.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #99 on: September 01, 2013, 09:00:43 AM »
Has there ever been a trainable box launcher proposed/trialed for Tartar/Standard missiles?

(Wanting to find out if what I saw at Shipbucket is indeed one of those "never-built" designs......)

========================================================================

The "Through Deck Cruisers" (Invincibles) and the abortive CVA-01 were both designed with their own defensive weaponry, but they add to the firepower of their own properly-armed and -equipped escorts.

========================================================================

Although the G.91 is generally considered a strike aircraft, it's actually no less of a "fighter" than a Gnat Mk.1, with high-subsonic performance, an Orpheus engine, guns and no radar.

Portuguese put Sidewinders on their G.91s and employed the jets as interceptors during the UN arms embargo.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?