Author Topic: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 186371 times)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #225 on: March 03, 2016, 11:52:30 PM »
Another though, what if the UK laid down and built the Colossus class as in reality but when they were about to order the Majestics with their various design changes to permit the operation of heavier aircraft it was decided instead to skip them all together and order the design they had planned for the following year instead.  Because of this the Majestic class were actually built to the 1943 or Centaur design leading to the completion ten Colossus, six Majestic reordered as Centaurs and all four original Centaurs being completed as Hermes'. 

Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #226 on: June 06, 2016, 09:33:01 AM »
I am posting this picture here only because I don't think that the Republic of China Navy would embarrass themselves by posting in an official naval museum an artist impression, however crude it might be, of a future ROCN fleet that they aren't serious about trying to build.  I think it is likely to be depicting a LHA rather than a CVL though.



And the bitter lesson of their 1950s and early-1960s naval clash with the PLAN hasn't been entirely forgotten- for ships that aren't meant to do shore bombardment missions, having punchy, rapid-reacting, rapid-firing guns is more important than having big guns.

The original picture HERE!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 10:18:45 AM by dy031101 »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #227 on: October 23, 2016, 03:46:57 AM »
Something different:  Deck cleaner on Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov:

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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #228 on: November 24, 2016, 07:39:15 AM »
Something different:  Deck cleaner on Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov:




Klimov VK-1?

You've got to hand it to the Soviet's/Russian's regarding the ability to devise simple and economical solutions!

M.A.D

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #229 on: November 25, 2016, 02:00:58 AM »
Tim the Toolman's Leafblower...

https://youtu.be/hLnFdYt4yZw
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #230 on: February 06, 2017, 09:49:25 AM »
This picture recently got me wondering......

I've been on-and-off thinking of the idea of a large seaplane cruiser in support of STOBAR or STOVL aircraft carriers (not thinking of any nation in particular- Rule of Cool, people), as I am under the impression that large flying boats and amphibians would have a better chance at fulfilling aerial tanker role and flying higher with AEW gears than helicopters......

I understand that helicopters can takeoff and land (by virtue of operating off a flight deck instead of a water surface) under rougher weathers than most flying boats can.  The flying boat that I can think of with the best rough weather capability would be the Shin Maywa US-1/US-2.

Is it safe to assume that smaller flying boats wouldn't have enough "room" for features comparable to those of the US-1/US-2 (able to land in seas up to 3 metres in height, according to Wikipedia; I don't know if I should care about the boundary layer control system......)?

And, finally, how many AEW planes and aerial tankers would I need to support, say, the carrier airwing of a Kuznetsov-class aircraft carrier?

Thanks in advance.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #231 on: February 19, 2017, 01:09:39 AM »
An interesting comparison:

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #232 on: February 19, 2017, 11:05:47 AM »
An interesting comparison:




The cats are longer than the CVE!

Been thinking on my idea of the US licence producing the 1942 and possibly 1943 Design Light Fleet Carriers during WWII, they could have been built faster and used multiple US systems, say half CL (50,000shp), CA (60,000shp), even half Essex (75,000shp) machinery while the Centaurs would use half an Iowa/Midway set, US radars and AA guns, initially multiple Bofors, then 3"L50s and finally a uniform 3" battery.  Initially built for lend Lease to the UK they are then also adopted by the USN as they are vastly superior to the US CVEs and CVLs for supporting amphibious operations etc. in particular they are much better at operating the at time challenging Corsair, making them ideal as Marine or "Gator" carriers.

Post war both types would be idea as CVS ASW Carriers in the USNs HUK groups, being much more capable than the Independence Class but much cheaper to operate than the Essex.  Together with the retention of the Gator Mission operating marine fighter and attack squadrons, vertical envelopment was also developed and trialled, these ships proving ideal, again as they were superior aviation platforms to the US designed CVLs and far cheaper to operate than the Essex class.

The immediate result of the availability of US built 1942 designs from mid 1944 was the RN went from having too few carriers to having far more carriers than they could crew.  With the intricacies of Lend Lease the UK couldn't simply pass the US sourced ships onto other navies, the flow on from this being transfer of existing and new build UK carriers to, first the Commonwealth, then to other allied nations during the last year of the war.  This included not just the Colossus Class being commissioned straight into service with Canada, Australia and New Zealand but also in the Australia taking the compromised Implacables, as well as Canada, France and the Netherlands taking over one each of the original three Armoured Fleet Carriers once the US built Centaurs began to arrive.  The most interesting, and divisive transfer was that of Indomitable to the Soviet Union in early 1945.

These transfers actually quite suited different elements in the UK for a number of reasons, for the Battleship Admirals (Frazer etc.) it meant that they had divested the RN of unnecessary dead weight and would simply return the US built ships post way and get back to the sort of ships they really needed, battleships and cruisers.  For the progressive Admirals, mostly concentrated in the British Pacific Fleet at this point, it meant they could get to work developing the next generation of ships to operate jet aircraft using innovative new technologies without the burden of a legacy fleet, as the new ships were commissioned the old ones would be returned to the US for them to dispose of as they desired.  Without the 6 Armoured Fleets and 8(+2) Colossus Class, the RN completed all eight Centaurs and the three Audacious class ships, while slowing and redesigning the Maltas, which were completed during the 50s to a configuration not dissimilar to that of the (alternate) reconstructed Victorious and Eagle. 

Interestingly the six Majestics never existed as the US built 1942s incorporated their improvements from the start and with ships from the US due to arrive much fast than they could have been built in the UK it made sense to use the resources for other more critical projects, as well as not so critical but politically important ones, such as completing Vanguard and laying down the Lions.  End result the UK entered the 1950s with three modern Audacious Class Armoured Fleet Carriers, eight modern Centaur Class Light Fleet Carriers, one Vanguard Class Battleship and two of four KGV Class Battleships in service, with four Malta Class Large Fleet Carriers under construction to an improved design and at least two of four Lion Class Battleships building to a new design incorporation advanced air defence radars and missile systems, land attack cruise missiles as well as their big guns.

Needless to say little of this survived Duncan Sandys 1957 defence review (carnal house of horrors), but then again as he had been working on this travesty since he was Minister of Supply prior to holding defence, even far less ambitious programs would have fallen to his ill conceived, illogical, ideological crusade.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #233 on: March 08, 2017, 11:13:39 PM »
I am posting this picture here only because I don't think that the Republic of China Navy would embarrass themselves by posting in an official naval museum an artist impression, however crude it might be, of a future ROCN fleet that they aren't serious about trying to build.

Sounds more and more like they are thinking of acquiring one.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #235 on: April 17, 2017, 03:28:13 AM »
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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #236 on: April 17, 2017, 06:20:26 PM »
Where did you find this Greg?
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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #237 on: April 18, 2017, 01:49:01 AM »
Reference was found over on Secret Projects:

Donald M. Fort, a Defense Constultant for Analytic Services, Inc. and formerly the Rand Corporation, the Center for Naval Analyses, and the US Air Force, wrote an article titled "Ultracarrier" in Proceedings of the US Naval Institute that appeared in its December 1978 issue. In this article, Fort proposed an even larger aircraft carrier than the Enterprise and Nimitz-classes, with a length of 1,310 feet and a displacement of 500,000 tons full load at a cost of $828 million in 1976 dollars.

Specifications of Fort "Ultracarrier"

Dimensions (feet)
    Length (total): 1,310
    Length (waterline): 1,250
    Beam (waterline): 280
    Draft (maximum): 75
    Flight deck width: 400

Displacement (long tons)
    Light ship: 400,000
    Full load: 500,000

Propulsion
    Nuclear (shp) 280,000
    Conventional (shp) 120,000
    No. of shafts: 6

Aviation Features
    No. of aircraft: 100
    No. of aviation elevators: 4
    No. of catapults: 6

Speed (knots)
    Maximum 26
    Cruise (nuclear) 23

Has the Department of the Navy or Department of Defense ever considered carriers larger than Enterprise or Nimitz class and was Fort's proposal ever given consideration?

Or prior to the ordering of CVN-71, USS Theodore Roosevelt, during the Reagan Administration, were previous carrier proposals only based on Elmo Zumwalt's "High-Low" philosophy: VTOL Support Ship (VSS), Sea Control Ship (SCS), or CVV (Aircraft Carrier, Medium Sized)?

Fort, Donald "Ultracarrier" Proceedings of the US Naval Institute (December 1978):





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Offline kim margosein

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #238 on: April 18, 2017, 08:53:32 AM »
It's got 4 times the displacement of the Nimitz, with only about 40% more power.   It will probably need special channels to get to the naval bases it would need to dock at, assuming they have docks to handle them.  And all this for SIX MORE AIRCRAFT????

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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #240 on: April 25, 2017, 06:00:21 AM »
There are three AWAC/AEW thing-a-ma-bobs!

Is it a Yak-44E?

« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 08:00:52 AM by The Big Gimper »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #241 on: April 25, 2017, 06:06:00 AM »
Looking at the blown up pictures, I would say yes.

speaking of which, is anyone aware of a kit of the Yak-44E?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 06:10:09 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #242 on: April 25, 2017, 12:18:37 PM »
I love how some proclaim the end of the road for USN super carriers because of this or that Russian or Chinese super weapon yet there are both Russia and China developing new carriers to try and compete with the USNs existing fleet.  ???

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #243 on: April 26, 2017, 01:59:41 AM »
There are always a multitude of naysayers out there - the same thing happens constantly with the F-35 with detractors claiming 'stealth' is dead and that some Russian/Chinese system can outwit it whilst ignoring the fact that the Russians/Chinese are developing their own platforms such as the T-50 and J-20...
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #244 on: April 26, 2017, 02:36:21 AM »
Looking at the blown up pictures, I would say yes.

speaking of which, is anyone aware of a kit of the Yak-44E?


There's a 1/200 scale one which I saw in google images when searching with 'Yak-44E' and there's a very neat larger model (I think) on
this web site (scroll to bottom)

http://www.airvectors.net/avyak40.html

But I've always said the Russians and now Chinese only copy what the west have done, albeit with using whatever technology they have or understand.

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #245 on: April 26, 2017, 02:42:08 AM »
I believe the one shown in the AirVectors site is a 1/66 paper one:  http://maquettes.hautetfort.com/archive/2010/11/09/4-yak-44-aew.html

My own research has also turned up these: 

1/200:  http://www.ussr-airspace.com/index.php?main_page=document_general_info&products_id=2792
1/144 (part of this Anigrand kit): https://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/kits/ani/kit_ani_4006.shtml
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #246 on: May 01, 2017, 07:19:52 AM »
I love how some proclaim the end of the road for USN super carriers because of this or that Russian or Chinese super weapon yet there are both Russia and China developing new carriers to try and compete with the USNs existing fleet.  ???

Although IMO the USN seriously needs to bring back the S-3 Viking or something more up to date!!
It's carrier-based ASW capability is seriously lacking  :(

M.A.D 

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #247 on: May 01, 2017, 08:49:29 AM »
I love how some proclaim the end of the road for USN super carriers because of this or that Russian or Chinese super weapon yet there are both Russia and China developing new carriers to try and compete with the USNs existing fleet.  ???

Although IMO the USN seriously needs to bring back the S-3 Viking or something more up to date!!
It's carrier-based ASW capability is seriously lacking  :(
SV-22B anyone?  I've got a concept sketched for that. Dipping sonar in place of the center hoist, modified lower ramp with sonobuoy dispensers and the deploy/retract gear for a MAD bomb; perhaps a modified nose profile for a search radar.

Offline jcf

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #248 on: May 01, 2017, 12:20:48 PM »
I love how some proclaim the end of the road for USN super carriers because of this or that Russian or Chinese super weapon yet there are both Russia and China developing new carriers to try and compete with the USNs existing fleet.  ???

Although IMO the USN seriously needs to bring back the S-3 Viking or something more up to date!!
It's carrier-based ASW capability is seriously lacking  :(

M.A.D

USN operate the P-8, ditto India and Oz, and it will be going into service with the UK and Norway, Japan has the P-1 which is in the process of replacing the P-3 Orions, so much of the worlds oceans is/will be covered, by land-based elements, which renders limited range carrier based elements largely moot. If a carrier based
ASW element comes back it'll probably be in the form of a UCAV, for multiple reasons.
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #249 on: May 04, 2017, 01:00:27 AM »
Quote
USN operate the P-8, ditto India and Oz, and it will be going into service with the UK and Norway, Japan has the P-1 which is in the process of replacing the P-3 Orions, so much of the worlds oceans is/will be covered, by land-based elements, which renders limited range carrier based elements largely moot. If a carrier based ASW element comes back it'll probably be in the form of a UCAV, for multiple reasons.
The problem with relying upon land based patrol for a sea based combat group is transit time. A 4 or 6 plane element on a carrier can keep 1 or 2 aircraft on patrol pretty continuously. To do that in the middle of the Atlantic (much less the Pacific) with land based P3 or P8s wold require a lot more aircraft as they would be spending an inordinate amount of time transiting to the patrol area. Not only does it drastically increase the number of aircraft required in the fleet, but those assets are very vulnerable if transiting, all alone, anywhere near the bad guys, which they probably would be.

No, the USN is seriously lacking in carrier-borne ASW assets.

Paul