Author Topic: Apophenia's Offerings  (Read 640080 times)

Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2950 on: April 29, 2022, 03:40:50 PM »
Remember that part of the klugey long schnozze appearance of the Cavalier Turbo-Mustang III was down
to the location of the firewall on a P-51, the Spitfire firewall location is better in aesthetic terms. The P-51
was always going to have that slapped onto the front look without the redesign of the PA-48.

Rda.10 Darts are 99.5" long and weigh over 620 kg (1,366 to 1,377 lbs depending on exact setup).

p.s. there's also no need to slavishly duplicate the Viscount nacelle when adding a Dart.  ;)







“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2951 on: April 30, 2022, 05:26:47 AM »
Great stuff, Jon. Thanks!

p.s. there's also no need to slavishly duplicate the Viscount nacelle when adding a Dart...

Unless Vickers-Armstrong senior management was breathing down your neck for 'in-house' economies  :o

Now in this scenario the Attacker was designed around a different, axial flow engine.  Was the fuselage a different diameter? ...

No, the fuselage was the same diameter as RW. It could have been at least 10 inches smaller in diameter. However, as a private venture, the Design Department was restricted to re-using work already done for the Type 392 'Jet Spiteful'.

... I gather the fuselage was lengthened forward of the wing.  How much was it lengthened?

Yes, the forward fuselage was lengthened - about 30 inches - to accommodate and position the new nose gear. However, the rear fuselage length was also reduced (both for balance and to shorten the jet pipe). So, overall length of this alternative Attacker was only ~14 inches greater than RW (ie: around 38 feet 8 inches).
"How we jigger it and figure it. Mistaking value for the price."

Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2952 on: April 30, 2022, 06:26:48 AM »
Here's Sheet 1 of Cook's Mk.XIV drawings showing internals, it may help in figuring out where
you can attach a Dart.  ;)
Image is 4549 × 6535 at 300 resolution.

I have all four sheets in a single 4.3MB if you want a copy, just PM me your email.

“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2953 on: May 01, 2022, 05:46:13 AM »
Great stuff ... thanks Jon. Downloaded for future reference  :smiley:
"How we jigger it and figure it. Mistaking value for the price."

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2954 on: May 01, 2022, 11:11:36 AM »
I've been playing with the C-123 Provider ...

For those who aren't familiar, the origins and development of the type are fascinating. This brings up the question: why did Fairchild never update the Provider into the turboprop age? Turns out, they tried.

In the early '60s, Fairchild put forward its M-541 STOL 'Tactical Airlift Transport' proposal. The USAF was interested - the type would have become the C-123L in service. But, for budgetary reasons, it never happened. And it that wasn't a 'what if' lead in, I don't what is!

I've also been pondering Private Venture designs lately. So, could a 'PV' have nudged the C-123L into reality? The M-541 was to have been a fairly major modification - with a broader fuselage, wider main undercarriage, and combined turboprop and booster jet propulsion - GE T64s and J85s. A tricky bit for a turboprop conversion is that the C-123's fuel was held in tanks in the engine nacelles - not within the wings. So, I'm thinking that the 'PV' would be a simplified demonstrator - basically just a C-123B with its R-2800s replaced by turboprops.

Top Fairchild M-541 (USAF XC-123L) Super Provider conversion with twin 2,850 shp T64-GE-4 turbines. Note that the wing 'drop tanks' were the M-541 demonstrator's sole source of fuel.

With the M-541 turboprop conversion successfully demonstrated, Fairchild received an official USAF evaluation. The first criticism was that the aircraft was underpowered and booster engines on a 'new' design were not seen as desirable. The second was the lack of any form of weather radar - essentially for an unpressurized aircraft destined to fly through the weather rather than over it. Fairchild had already planned to introduce radar but the power situation was more serious. This led to the more powerful M-541M concept.

The prototype XC-123L was quickly modified to take much larger, 4,050 shp Allison T56-A-7 turboprops housed in Lockheed C-130B nacelles. This was an ad hoc arrangement which brought the propellers dangerously close to the cabin door. Meanwhile, redesign work began on a revised Super Provider airframe with a stretched forward fuselage and an enlarged tailplane. A completely new main undercarriage was also introduced - retracting into distinctive 'sponsons' bulging from the fuselage sides.

The new main undercarriage arrangement achieved two goals. First was a wider wheel track for extra stability on the ground. Second was the elimination of the Provider's interior wheel bays which impinged upon the cargo hold by almost three feet. The remaining 110 inch space was the same width as the hydraulically-operated loading ramp. However, with the sponson arrangement, consistent broad aisles were available on either side of the planned load of three standard 463L pallets. That load would fit because of a modest fuselage stretch which, in turn had been dictated by engine weight. The new turboprops were 840 lbs lighter that the original R-2800-99W radials. To restore c/g, another bay was inserted into the forward fuselage - adding 32 inches to cargo hold length.

With these changes incorporated, the Fairchild  M-541M Super Provider was born. The new engines, undercarriage sponsons, enlarged tailplane, and 'radar nose' gave the M-541M a rather different appearance. However, under the skin, there were fewer changes than original proposed for the M-541. The fuselage cross-section remained unchanged - with the wheel well bays removed from the hold, there was no longer any need for a wider cabin. On the advice of USAF evaluators, the complexities of blown flaps was also avoided - the C-123M now being seen as a straightforward 'Tactical Airlift Transport' rather than a STOL performer.

Bottom Fairchild  M-541M Super Provider - DOD designation YC-123M - the T56-powered successor to the XC-123L and C-123K fleets.

"How we jigger it and figure it. Mistaking value for the price."

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2955 on: May 01, 2022, 05:29:24 PM »





Can I ask where you get these scale drawings from as I am after a source of decent drawings for late Spitfires and, well, just about anything.
Its not that its not real but it could be that its not true.

Offline perttime

  • The man has produced a Finnish Napier Heston Fighter...need we say more?
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2956 on: May 01, 2022, 06:55:22 PM »
Can I ask where you get these scale drawings from as I am after a source of decent drawings for late Spitfires and, well, just about anything.
Those are drawings by Jumpei Temma of Japan. There is more at http://soyuyo.main.jp/top2.htm

Dont' let the Japanese texts scare you. The drawings enlarge nicely when you click them, or the link that he sometimes puts below the small image.

For late Spitfires/Seafires, start at http://soyuyo.main.jp/spit47/spit47-1.html
« Last Edit: May 01, 2022, 06:58:45 PM by perttime »

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2957 on: May 02, 2022, 09:50:23 AM »
The provider profiles look great, apophenia. I've always liked the Provider in all it's many forms. To my knowledge, it's the only aircraft to have flown in glider, piston, all-jet, combination, and turboprop configurations.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2958 on: May 02, 2022, 05:33:05 PM »
Can I ask where you get these scale drawings from as I am after a source of decent drawings for late Spitfires and, well, just about anything.
Those are drawings by Jumpei Temma of Japan. There is more at http://soyuyo.main.jp/top2.htm

Dont' let the Japanese texts scare you. The drawings enlarge nicely when you click them, or the link that he sometimes puts below the small image.

For late Spitfires/Seafires, start at http://soyuyo.main.jp/spit47/spit47-1.html


A Fabulous resource - thanks for the link :)
Its not that its not real but it could be that its not true.

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2959 on: May 03, 2022, 05:07:14 AM »
Thanks Logan.

... To my knowledge, it's the only aircraft to have flown in glider, piston, all-jet, combination, and turboprop configurations...

Yup. And almost as dramatically, the undercarriage variations - fixed (XG-20?), semi-retractable (YC-122), fully-retractable (C-123), and the wonderfully bonkers Pantobase (YC-134A).

I do wonder what the Provider's fate would have been had Fairchild addressed some of its major shortcomings a bit earlier - especially 'wet' wings in place of those nacelle tanks and a wider track main undercarriage. Stroukoff was heading towards more STOL performance but I doubt that was what the USAF was looking for. Probably the C-123's lack of cabin pressurization was what really killed further development.
"How we jigger it and figure it. Mistaking value for the price."

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2960 on: May 03, 2022, 10:29:45 AM »
Yup. And almost as dramatically, the undercarriage variations - fixed (XG-20?), semi-retractable (YC-122), fully-retractable (C-123), and the wonderfully bonkers Pantobase (YC-134A).

I do wonder what the Provider's fate would have been had Fairchild addressed some of its major shortcomings a bit earlier - especially 'wet' wings in place of those nacelle tanks and a wider track main undercarriage. Stroukoff was heading towards more STOL performance but I doubt that was what the USAF was looking for. Probably the C-123's lack of cabin pressurization was what really killed further development.

There were so many good tactical transports in the '50s, but I think what really killed most of them was the inspired greatness and continued evolution of the C-130 that is ongoing even today. I love the idea of evolved C-123s (among others in the era), but the C-130 looks even more certain in hindsight than it clearly did to the procurement officers in the 1950s and '60s.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2961 on: May 04, 2022, 02:09:41 AM »
There were so many good tactical transports in the '50s, but I think what really killed most of them was the inspired greatness and continued evolution of the C-130 that is ongoing even today.

Agreed - it is interesting to speculate about what may have resulted if the superlative C-130 hadn't been created.
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2962 on: May 04, 2022, 05:23:57 AM »
There were so many good tactical transports in the '50s, but I think what really killed most of them was the inspired greatness and continued evolution of the C-130 that is ongoing even today.

Agreed - it is interesting to speculate about what may have resulted if the superlative C-130 hadn't been created.

Agreed x 2. And many of those twin-engined '50s transports were directly replaced by 4-engined C-130s (eg: RCAF going from C-119G to C-130B). So, was there any remaining market for twins?

I've always liked the idea of a twin-engined 'Short Herc' (maybe in a related scenario, Fairchild nailing together Lockheed-supplied parts). But, if reality raised its ugly head, would any air force actually be willing to buy half a Hercules? Note sure.

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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2963 on: May 04, 2022, 11:06:28 AM »
The Caribou had a role that most military/air forces are using "work around"s for, largely because the number of times they need those specific flight characteristics doesn't justify the expense of keeping a similar aircraft on the books.

Aren't too many aircraft, not even the Herc, that can approach at as steep an angle & stop in as short a distance as the ol' 'Bou. :smiley:
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2964 on: May 05, 2022, 02:45:08 AM »
Plenty of inspiration here:

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Offline ericr

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2965 on: May 05, 2022, 02:59:13 AM »
 ;D

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2966 on: May 05, 2022, 03:24:53 AM »
So, was there any remaining market for twins?

I've always liked the idea of a twin-engined 'Short Herc' (maybe in a related scenario, Fairchild nailing together Lockheed-supplied parts). But, if reality raised its ugly head, would any air force actually be willing to buy half a Hercules? Note sure.

The Caribou had a role that most military/air forces are using "work around"s for, largely because the number of times they need those specific flight characteristics doesn't justify the expense of keeping a similar aircraft on the books.

Aren't too many aircraft, not even the Herc, that can approach at as steep an angle & stop in as short a distance as the ol' 'Bou. :smiley:

It's been tried about a hundred times since WWII and has never really been too successful on a large scale. You could make the claim that the Caribou, Buffalo, An-26, An-32, CN-235, C-295, or C-27J are Dakota replacements in the sub-C-130 weight class, but none of them has ever had the level of market saturation that the C-47 achieved.

When it comes to civil fleets, the DC-3 size airliner gradually grew until eventually the market seems to have settled on the 737 and A320 for the backbone of their fleets.

Most military users scaled up similarly, just going with the C-130 as the most efficient airlifter in the past 50 years.

If someone is looking for a C-47 successor in the sub-C-130 space, I think there are two twin-engine aircraft that fit the bill pretty well. In "first world" countries, that would be the CH-47 Chinook, while in most of Southern and Eastern Hemispheres, it's the Mi-8/17 "Hip" family. It might seem heretical, but when you look how they're used and the their capabilities, it's clear that militaries just don't use fixed wing transport aircraft in large numbers at the tactical level anymore.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline finsrin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2967 on: May 05, 2022, 07:02:04 AM »
Cover art on book is awesome  :-*

Offline raafif

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2968 on: May 06, 2022, 08:59:29 AM »
JetBox ?

Offline upnorth

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2969 on: May 13, 2022, 12:53:20 PM »
Plenty of inspiration here:



That certainly looks tail heavy enough.

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Offline Gingie

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2970 on: May 14, 2022, 12:03:44 AM »
It uses the rather rare "Nose Dragger" landing gear configuration.

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2971 on: Today at 08:59:09 AM »
This one started as an idea for the Maritime Patrol GB but morphed into something off-topic ...

'Canopus' - A South Atlantic Comet Story

At the start of the 1982 Falklands Conflict, Fuerza Aérea Argentina Boeing 707s seemed to lead a charmed life. In the last two weeks of April alone, FAA recce/elint 707-387Cs TC-91 and TC-92 were both intercepted a number of times by Sea Harrier fighters. But, on each occasion, RN pilots were denied permission to fire on the Argie reconnaissance jets. But it became obvious that the 707s were leading FAA attack aircraft to the Royal Navy formations and orders changed. On 22 May, HMS Bristol and HMS Cardiff both fired Sea Dart surface-to-air missiles at TC-92. Those four missiles missed TC-92 but the FAA now 'on notice'.

Early on, there had been a random inflight encounter between an RAF Nimrod MR2 and an Argie 707. Thereafter, the RAF decided to arm its deployed MR2s with Sidewinder missiles from pylons on the Nimrods' otherwise unused wing hardpoints. An interim 'fix' was also adopted to forward-deploy the A&AEE's missile-test de Havilland Comet 4C. This aircraft - Comet XS235 'Canopus' (c/n 6473) - had been testing HS Red Top air-to-air missiles from an underbelly fairing (which also mounted its Ferranti AI.23 Airpass targeting radar). Loaded with older, surplus Firestreak IR-seeking AAMs, XS235 was despatched to Wideawake Airfield on Ascension Island with orders to actively hunt Argentine long-range aircraft.

Both Firestreak and the more modern US Sidewinder were rear-aspect infrared-guided missiles. Whereas an ongoing supply of the US missiles was uncertain at this juncture, the British Firestreak was readily available. But the aged Firestreak also had another blandishment. The AIM-9L was best employed against an unaware target from no more than 1.85 miles (3 km) out. By contrast, Firestreak could be realistically fired from as much as 4 miles (6.4 km) range. As far as RAF intel knew, the FAA 707s carried no active countermeasures in form of chaff or, more importantly here, IR flares. But this would be no 'turkey shoot'. The Boeing 707 had a 100 mph speed advantage over the British Nimrods and Comet.

Gun Runners - Intercepting Arms-Carrying Cargo Aircraft

By this stage, the vulnerability of its 707s was apparent to the FAA and the recce/elint Boeings were being steered well away from the British Task Force. In the meantime, however, other 707s of the national carrier - Aerolíneas Argentinas - were known to be returning from Israel with loads of weapons. But no offensive moves were made against the Aerolíneas Argentinas Boeings. These were civilian-registered airliners, after all - no matter the nature of their cargo. But the Fuerza Aérea Argentina’s third 707-387C - the cargo door-fitted TC-93 - was judged a valid military target.

TC-93 had just flown to Libya to collect weaponry gifted to Argentina by Colonel Gaddafi. The 707 had routed through Recife in Brazil enroute to Tripoli. British intelligence were able to confirm that, among TC-93's collected load of weapons were Soviet SA-7 MANPADS destined for las Malvinas. By comparison with the Blowpipe SAM used by both sides in the Falklands, the SA-7 Grail was light and handy. If deployed by the Ejército Argentino at Port Stanley, these lightweight, shoulder-launched SAMs would be a game-changer. This could not be allowed to happen.

Predicting that TC-93 would retrace its steps back to Recife, standing RAF patrols were established. Circling 1,000 km ENE of Recife, missile-armed Nimrods and the Comet 'Canopus' traded turns waiting to pounce. It was a Nimrod MR2P which first detected TC-93 but wiring problems rendered both of its Sidewinder missiles inoperable. Instead, 'Canopus' was directed onto the target by the Nimrod. The Argentine aircraft had already initiated its descent into REC (Guararapes Airport at Recife). Having already passed through 25,000 feet, the FAA flight crew had throttled back to slow their rate of descent. Even still, the 'Canopus' pilot had to begin a shallow dive from 31,000 feet just to catch up with the speedier Boeing. At 35 miles out, the ASOp located the 707 with the pannier's AI.23 Airpass set and locked on.

At an IAS of over 550 mph, the WSO aboard 'Canopus' loosed the first Firestreak. It was a 'miss' but the FAA crew were now alerted and veered violently to port. The second Firestreak functioned perfectly. As TC-93 jinked left, the second Firestreak struck its No.4 engine and detonated. The ruined JT3 turbojet parted company with its pylon and drew a flaming arc downwards. TC-93 continued a hard roll to port until its damaged starboard wing folded just beyond its outboard pylon. The striken 707 plunged through cloud-cover at 15,000 feet - those clouds briefly illuminated by fierce flames spewing from its ruptured fuel tanks. Although unobserved directly by its British pursuers, the doomed TC-93 and its armaments cargo came down in the South Atlantic approximately 650 km ENE of Recife. At 7:25 am GMT, 'Canopus' radioed RAF Ascension Island control with the terse message “Splash one Tagine" - the agreed-upon code for Libyan transport down. [1]

"I am a lonely hunter that hunts on a lonely hill ..."

Its downing of TC-93 secured the reputation of 'Canopus' - forever now the 'Killer Comet' in the press. However, the aged 'Canopus' was also a stand-alone type sitting at the end of a very long supply chain. Invariably, she was plagued with maintenance issues. However, the hunt for the remaining FAA 707s had intensified and 'Canopus' had to soldier on. Two days after the downing of TC-93, 'Canopus' was aloft, once again circling off the coast of South America. This time the intended victims were the 707 recce aircraft. And there was a lure. The Argentines had received planted reports from Uruguayan sources of the British fleet replenishment ship, RFA Fort Grange, sailing alone off the Río de la Plata. In fact, this vessel was a container ship mocked up to resemble the general outline of the Fort Grange. But it did the trick.

Following their intelligence lead, the FAA sent up TC-91 to search for this British ship. And the Argentine crew were able to spot the 'Fort Grange' through a gap in the clouds as she sailing south off of Buenos Aires. Fortunately, those same clouds would then hamper the FAA Canberras sent to attack the supposed British fleet replenishment ship. Alas, these clouds also thwarted the RAF 'interceptors' sent to close the decoy trap. Neither Nimrod MR2P nor armed Comet were able to detect - let alone intercept - TC-91 over the decoy ship. 'Canopus' then lost an engine on return to Ascension and had to limp home on three. A replacement Avon was flown in by RAF Hercules but the Comet's mechanical problems were compounding.

That Río de la Plata flight would prove to be the last combat mission for 'Canopus'. At the beginning of June, she was flown home to Boscombe Down. The Falklands Conflict ended two weeks later. It was hoped that 'Canopus' would be fully airworthy again in time for the flypast scheduled for the London Victory Parade held on 12 October 1982. That was not to be. 'Canopus' had done her bit. She now seemed quite determined to remain on the ground.

(Fin)
_________________________________

[1] Tagine is a traditional Libyan dish of minced lamb in spiced tomato sauce. Perhaps a 'making a hash' reference?
"How we jigger it and figure it. Mistaking value for the price."