Vengea-Cat

[PFJN]

Hi,
I am intending to try and kit bash a 1/72 scale FROG Vultee Vengenace with a 1/72 MPC (Airfix) F6F model tomake a notionally carrier capable dive bomber,by grafting the wings from the F6F to the Vengeance engine/fuselage/tail assemblies.  I will also try and addsome dive brakes (similar to what is on the base Vengeance to the new wings, and also used the tailhook from the F6F as well.

I already have the MPC/Airfix F6F kit but only just ordered the FROG Vengeance kit last night off eBay, so it willprobably be a few days before I can get started.  However the skethes below give a general idea of what I am thinking of.  In my original plans I was considering just doing a straight swap of the wings (since with wing area of the F6F is very similar to the baseline Venegeance, ie 334 vs 332 sq ft).  This would give the kitbash the same wingspan of the F6F.  However, after thinking about it a little more I've been considering extended the wing tips a little to match the same wing span of the base Vengeance,which would increas the Wing Area by a small amount.  The figures below show the base Vengeance on the left side (or top) of the image with the base F6F on the right side (orbottom), and the Vengea-Cat (both a long wing and short winge variant) in between.







I hope to get started on the build as soon as the FROG kit arrives in the mail.   

[Robomog]

Looks interesting 

Have you decided on the colour scheme yet ?

To me it's screaming out for a gloss midnight blue.

Mog
>^-.-^<

[Kerick]

There’s always the two tone grey and white Atlantic scheme. I know it was used on Wildcats/Marlins.

[Old Wombat]

I keep reading Venga-Cat!

[The Big Gimper]

There is a flying restored TBM in this scheme.

[PFJN]

Hi,
Thanks for the suggestions and images.  I was also maybe thinking of possibly an RN Fleet AirArm scheme,like the one below.

(Source: Wikipedia)

Regards

Pat

[Robomog]

That would work !   

Mog
>^-.-^<

[PFJN]

Hi,
I like your blue idea too though 

[Jeffry Fontaine]

We Like To Party

Vengea-Cat

Once you see it, it can not be unseen or unheard  

[Old Wombat]

I keep reading Venga-Cat!

We Like To Party

Vengea-Cat

Once you see it, it can not be unseen or unheard  

Yep, that, unfortunately, is what went through my head.

[Kerick]

I saw that whole line up at an airshow in Peru IL. It was last year in May. Plus a Skyraider and Corsair. Then I find out a good friend of mine was there the day before.

[robunos]

This is going to be interesting. If it's not too late, you could use Avenger wings . . .


cheers,
Robin.

[Buzzbomb]

Was looking at the drawings, which I like they way they are done and had a feeling.. I have seen something with vaguely similar lines

Of course it would be British, the Fairey Spearfish




Totally like the idea of this because slightly cranked wings always look cool

[PFJN]

Cool, that's interesting

[PFJN]

Hi,
I got my FROG Vengeance kit in the mail today, and did a test fit for the Hellcat Wing Roots.  As shown below they appear to fit in fairly well.  Since the chord length of the Hellcat appears to be just a little bit less than for the Vengeance, there is a little leeway in placing the new wings, and since I had read that the reason for the odd "W" shaped planform of the original wings on the Vengeance was needed to move the center of the wings back a bit, I've gone ahead and pushed the new Hellcat wing as far back in the opening in the fuselage for the original Vengeance wing as I could, leaving just a small amount of space forward that will require some filler, as shown in the second image, which hopefully won'y be too big of an issue to take care of. 




I also noticed that the cowlings aren't too different in general shape, though the Hellcat one is longer.  As such I could potentially look into re-engining the plane with the Hellcat engine, but for now I think I'm going to stick with the original engine.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Wikipedia > Vultee Vengeance

Wikipedia > Grumman Hellcat

Vengeance was powered by the R-2600 which was a 14-cylinder radial with a slightly larger diameter than the 18-cylinder R-2800 that powered the F6F Hellcat.  So swapping cowlings is not going to make a real difference other than the change in physical appearance.  If you can make it fit then definitely consider making the change. 

[Old Wombat]

Wikipedia > Vultee Vengeance

Wikipedia > Grumman Hellcat

Vengeance was powered by the R-2600 which was a 14-cylinder radial with a slightly larger diameter than the 18-cylinder R-2800 that powered the F6F Hellcat.  So swapping cowlings is not going to make a real difference other than the change in physical appearance.  If you can make it fit then definitely consider making the change.

And 400 more Pegasi to play with.

[PFJN]

Hi,
Sorry I haven't been posting more photos of my build, but here is where I currently am at.

In the cockpit I did a little bit of modding, to round off the top of the aft crew members seat, and clean up the radio station.  I also added a few small consoles that, in the end don't really show up much.  But since I saw them in some images of the full scale plane's cockpit and in other more detailed kits I went ahead and added them.  I also tried to separate the headrest for the pilto from his seat as well.  One final thing that appears to be missing from the FROG kit is that there doesn't appear to be a control panel for the pilot.  It probably won't show much either but I may stilltry and mock something simple up.

Other than that the wing roots went in fairly easily and I filled the gaps with putty.  Other than that I am now working on the landing gear.  I also want to try and clean up some of th seem lines.  After that I need to add the engine, crew, and outer wings.  The main hang up there is that I'm still not sure what I am going to do with them.  In general I intend to have the right wing extended and the left wing folded, to show what the plane willlook like in either condition.  However, I'm still not fully sure how to approach extending the wings.

Option 1m would be to just leave them as unmodified Hellcat wings.  They are very similar in areas to the base Vengrance wings, but a little shorter in span.  Option 2 would be to just cut off the wing tips and add a small extension (of about two scale feet) but leave the ailerons as is.  Option 3 would be to stretch the ailerons along with extending the wing.

If this were a real world conversion I could see that Option 1 would be the easiest conversion, while Option 2 would also seem to be fairly doable.  However, eventhough the ailerons from the Hellcat wing appear to be a larger size (but shorter span) than the original Vengenace ailerons, for Option 2, they wouldn't be as close to the ti of the wing as possible and as such may not be as effective as they could be, I'm guessing.  As such I'm still leaning towards Option 3, but haven't fully figured out where best to make the cuts yet.

Regards

Pat

[Kerick]

I’d vote for option 2. I think it would look better than 1 and be less work than 3.
I’d also vote for the Atlantic scheme with British markings. The back story could be about how all the Vultee production went to the British as Lend Lease to chase U boats.

[Old Wombat]

The Grumman wing is, actually, 2 sq ft LARGER than the Vultee wing - I'd leave it as-is.

[robunos]

Well, it's your model, but I'm with Wombat, go with the wings as-as.


cheers,
Robin.

[PFJN]

Hi,

Thanks for the suggestions.  I guess it does make sense that if anyone ever would have considered such an idea it would make sense to look at the simplest option first.  SoI think I'll go with Option 1 for now.

Regards

Pat

PS.  Editted down from a wordier response

[PFJN]

Hi,
Here is an image with the right wing installed, though I am still working on trying to get the dihedral angle of this outer panel correct, so its still kind of a work in progress.

Rgards

Pat

[PFJN]

Hi,
I'm not good with back stories but here is a try at one for this build.

In an alterternate history/what-if WWII setting:

In mid-1941 it was realized that the Blackburn Skua was soon to be retired.  Although the Fairey Fulmar had begun replacing it in the figter role the year before, there wasn't any real suitable airframe available to replace it as a carrier borne dive bomber. 

Around this time, although the RAF had committed to purchasing several hundred Vultee Vengeance and Brewster Bermuda aircraft, developments in the war had begun to show the limits of the usefulness of single engine bombers and dive bombers in overland operations, at least in the western European theater.  Delays in the Bermuda program also would also delay the introduction of that aircraft for about another year.

As such (in this alternate world setting( since the Vultee's were now somewhat surplus to RAF requirments, alternate uses for them were contemplated (with in the real world the UK actually offering some of them up to the RAAF if they wanted them).

So (in this alternate world setting) someone within the UK Government, the RAF, the RN or perhaps the British Purchasing Commission decided to look into what it might take to make the Vultee aircraft carrrier capable to replace the Skua in the Dive Bomber role.  This would require marinizing some of the components to make them better able to handle operating in an environment with significant salt spray, the fitting of arrestor gear (with the potential modification of some of the airframe structure to handle the stresses of arrested landings and other carrier operational loads), and the potential to fold the wings to be able to fit on most carrier lifts then in service and allow the planes to be struck down in the hangar below decks.

With regards to the wings (in this alternate world setting) two main approaches were considered.  The first would be to try and make the planes existing wing foldable, and the second would be to investigate whether a foldable wing from some other aircraft could be retrofitted. 

With respect to the first option, if a simple fold was incorporated into the wing at the point of the inflection in the leading and trailing edges of the wing (as shown below) this would leave an outer wing section of about 14.6ft to be folded up and over, whcih (due to the height of the landing gear beneath the wing) would make folding and unfolding the wing within the hangar likely impossible, as shown below.


[Simple fold of existing Vengeance wing]

A second approach to making the existing wing foldable would be to try and do something similar to what was done on the Fulmar as shown below.  However, this would require substantial modifications to the base Vultee wing.



[Fulmar Style wing fold - Red section flips ontop of wing and Blue section (with red section on top) then pivots aft]

A third approach would be to try and make the wing foldable similar to the wing on the Skua, which likely wouldn't require as many mods as trying to fold the wings in a manner similar to the Fulmar.  However, both approaches would also likely require significant modifications to the running of the control cables for the ailerons and flaps, since they would have to be rerun close to the point where the inner and outer sections of the wings connected.



As such (in this alternate world setting) fitting the existing wing of either the Fulmar or Skua directly to the fuselage of the Vultee was also investigated.  On paper the Fulmar had a similar wing span (46ft 4.25") to the Vultee (48ft), and a slightly greater wing area (342 sq ft) vs the Vultee (332 sq ft), while the Skua had a span of 46' 2" and an area of 319 sq ft. 

However, the wing of the Fulmar and Skua are both mounted low on the aircraft, at the bottom of the fuselage, but on the Vultee its was mounted higher to clear the bomb bay.  In addition, as shown below, the root chord length of the Fulmar wing was larger than that of the Vultee, though the root chord of the Skua appeared much closer to that of the Vultee. 



Additionally since the wings on both the Fulmar and Skua were mounted lower on those aircraft than the wing on the Vultee the landing gear on the two RN aircraft appear to be shorter than that in the Vultee which would require additional modifications to be suitable for use on the Vultee aircraft, as shown below



As such, it would be likely that mating the Fulmar wing and landing gear, and the Vultee fuselage would likely require a degree of redesign to fit them together, while trying to fit the Skua wing could potentially require less modification but would still require changes to the landing gear (and how that gear retracts into the wing).

With this in mind then (in this alternate world scenario) aircraft from overseas were also investigated.  In general the the F4F-4  and TBF which were just getting ready for production by Grumman were both mid wing designs, but the F4F-4 wing was too small (220 sq ft) while the TBF was too large (490 sq ft), with the F4F-4 also not having any wing mounted landing gear, but the TBF having very long gear.  The then in design F6F however appeared to be a potential better fit with its 334 sq ft wing area, slightly smaller wing root chord, and similar landing gear length to the Vultee, as shown below.




As such, I've been thinking that maybe instead of painting my build in operational colors I might instead look into painting it as a prototype or experimental aircraft with a yellow bottom and a Circle P emblem on the side near the Roundal, like shown on the Gloster Meteor at this site - https://plane-crazy.k-hosting.co.uk/Aircraft/Jets/Meteor/gloster_meteor.htm

Regards

Pat

[Old Wombat]

An additional plus to the F6F wings is that they give you 6 x .50cal forward firing machine guns with which to subdue any enemy light AA (with the potential to modify them, later, to take 2 x 20mm auto-cannon + 4 x .50cal machine guns).

While all F6F-5s were capable of carrying an armament mix of one 20-mm (.79-in) M2 cannon in each of the inboard gun bays (220 rounds per gun), along with two pairs of .50-in (12.7-mm) machine guns (each with 400 rounds per gun), this configuration was only used on later F6F-5N night fighters. The F6F-5 was the most common F6F variant, with 7,870 being built.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F6F_Hellcat








[Edited to add pictures.]