Grumman S-2 Tracker and derivatives

[Kerick]

You mentioned the Mohawk earlier and I was thinking the Attacker Tracker would look cool with those bulged out side windows. Sounds like you have a whiff half done.

[elmayerle]

For the new, more aggressive nose, how about something patterned after the original solid-nose of the Neptune, with guns?

[Jeffry Fontaine]

For the new, more aggressive nose, how about something patterned after the original solid-nose of the Neptune, with guns?

That is way more work/surgery than I want to invest in converting the Tracker.  Package guns should be sufficient for strafing ship type targets during the torpedo run to the target.  For any air-to-ground work the four guns and rockets under the wing should be enough to pulverize most targets.  Other missions such as mine-laying would not require the guns as speed and range would be more valuable for such missions. 

[Gingie]

oh, scheme it in SEAC with black undersides a-la B-52, AC-130 etc

[Jeffry Fontaine]

oh, scheme it in SEAC with black undersides a-la B-52, AC-130 etc

For the time period, I would imagine the Attack Tracker would have been in overall dark sea blue. :)

[kitnut617]

For the new, more aggressive nose, how about something patterned after the original solid-nose of the Neptune, with guns?

Hmm!  think on this I will  --------   

[Volkodav]

A B-25H type nose, or one incorporating a 57mm Molins gun, or two/three/four? 

[M.A.D]

Take the expensive but easy way out and kit bash the Tracker with the Greyhound or Hawkeye for the wings and engines.  Then you could go retro with the Hawkeye or Greyhound and give it some radials :)

Indeed.


S2F-4 came very close to being a production aircraft.

 

JCF, what else do you have on this (I assume turboprop-powered) S2F-4 variant in the way of info/data? Would be very interested!!
M.A.D

[Daryl J.]

S2-T
US Army

[GTX_Admin]

S2-T
US Army

In a heavy CAS style role?

[M.A.D]

Im pretty sure the US Army in 'real-world' terms studied an actual COIN related derivative of the Tracker during the time of the Vietnam War.....now where did I read that.... 


M.A.D

[finsrin]

With Sand Point NAS near by remember lot of Trackers flying over neighborhood as a kid.  Later when in P-2 squadron were plenty Trackers around.  Attack/bomber version is interesting subject.

[M.A.D]

Ok, I found one of the articles I read about the USAF (and not the U.S. Army!) want to use the Tracker in COIN role in Vietnam:

The U.S. Air Force Wanted to Turn Navy Sub-Hunters Into Attack Aircraft
https://warisboring.com/the-u-s-air-force-wanted-to-turn-navy-sub-hunters-into-attack-aircraft/


M.A.D

[finsrin]

Ok, I found one of the articles I read about the USAF (and not the U.S. Army!) want to use the Tracker in COIN role in Vietnam:

The U.S. Air Force Wanted to Turn Navy Sub-Hunters Into Attack Aircraft
https://warisboring.com/the-u-s-air-force-wanted-to-turn-navy-sub-hunters-into-attack-aircraft/


M.A.D

A most interesting article.  Seems good if had the S-2s and done it.

[apophenia]

G-112 study for an improved S-2F:

http://thanlont.blogspot.ca/2016/01/grumman-s2fs-2-tracker-monograph.html

[ScranJ51]

Re Trackers and COIN, I seem to remember an old RAN filmclip about a HMAS MELBOURNE deployment to NZ, and that had vision of a Tracker firing 5 inch FF Rockets at a range. 

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Re Trackers and COIN, I seem to remember an old RAN filmclip about a HMAS MELBOURNE deployment to NZ, and that had vision of a Tracker firing 5 inch FF Rockets at a range. 

The 5.0"/127mm HVAR were an integral part of the Tracker for many years with solid shot warheads being carried to punch holes in surfaced submarine targets.  Other warheads for the HVAR could be carried but that would depend on the mission and targets to be encountered.  Other weapons (rockets, bombs, gun pods, etc.) compatible with the S-2 would also have been included for use in the COIN mission.

As far as the COIN mission envisioned for the Tracker, this comment from Greg Goebels Air Vectors appears to describe it best for sharing here:

(Source Page Link) * One of the might-have-beens of the Tracker story was consideration of its use as a gunship in Vietnam. The idea wasn't ridiculous, the Lockheed P2V Neptune having seen some use as a "jungle fighter" in the conflict. The Air Force was looking for a "Self Contained Night Attack (SNCA)" platform that could locate targets on its own at night and engage them; the Tracker seemed to have the payload capability to do the job.

The gunship Tracker was to be designated the "AS-2D". It was to be fitted with "forward looking infrared (FLIR)" and "low light level TV (LLLTV)" sensors to obtain targets, with the Tracker's standard searchlight slaved to the LLLTV. Weapons were to consist of cluster munitions dispensers in the bombbay and stores carried on the underwing pylons. Two "YAS-2D" evaluation machines were planned, but the effort ran into technical and organizational difficulties, with the Air Force pulling the plug on the exercise in early 1968. It would have been interesting to see what the Tracker would look like in jungle camouflage.

[The Big Gimper]

Not sure what was in my coffee and peanut butter and jam toast this morning but here is the result.


S2-LD-Stretch-final by Big Gimper, on Flickr

[GTX_Admin]

Need side view or at least a normal version alongside for comparison

[The Big Gimper]

I can give you the original drawing and the side view of how I will build it.  Still working on the full colour side view.


S2-LD-Stretch-V1 by Big Gimper, on Flickr


S2-LD-Stretch-final by Big Gimper, on Flickr


S2-P-Stretch-V1 by Big Gimper, on Flickr

[GTX_Admin]

So what;s the proposed role of this creature?

[Old Wombat]

Well, I've done a flying-boat Tracker (you may remember her) ...



... & I have 2 more in the stash, one of which will be Real World from my Tracker Whacker days.

The third is going to be whiffed as a Coastal/Maritime Patrol & Surveillance aircraft, with a turboprop conversion, to be employed by the Royal Australian Navy Coast Guard.

Now, what I would like from you guys is some inspiration for this future build.

Let's start with a little list of areas to look at;

1.) Engines* - obviously the Garrett/Honeywell TPE331 (T76) or Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A but are there any other possibilities?

2.) Surveillance packages* - what would be some useful data gathering & interpreting systems suitable for general coastal/maritime ELINT?

3.) Patrol packages* - optical & electronic search systems suitable for general coastal/maritime detection & observation tasks?

4.) Integrated systems - how would these packages be incorporated into the airframe with minimal alteration of the existing lay-out (remembering that this is not meant to be a weapons carrier).




* - Any photo's you may have of the visible aspects of any suggested options would be greatly appreciated (with measurements, please).



Cheers!

[Kerick]

What time frame are you looking at? Modern or maybe 1980's?

[elmayerle]

You've listed the two main engine options.  The only others I can think of possibly being used are the Turbomeca Astazou and the Walter engine used on the LET-410.  The first seems to get replaced, a lot, by the Garrett?Honeywell engine (for example, the prototype MU-2 had Astazous, all production MU-2s have Garrett/Honeywell TPE331s; TPE331s replaced Astazous in later models of the Jetstream) and I doubt the Walter engine would be used much outside the Eastern Bloc.  Engine choice might depend on time frame as it was not until the 1990s that the PT6A, with FADEC, developed the same throttle responsiveness as the TPE331; if that is a concern.

For maritime patrol activities, you might want to add bulged side windows, as on the MU-2S maritime patrol variant of the short MU-2. 

[GTX_Admin]

the Walter engine used on the LET-410 .... I doubt the Walter engine would be used much outside the Eastern Bloc. 

The engine is the  Walter M601. In the industry it's often considered as an Eastern block PT6.   It is useable on non Eastern bloc platforms though given that GE now offer uprated derivatives called the H75 (750 shp), H80 (800 shp) and H85 (850 shp).  I suppose they could follow the PT6 route and develop a big version in the 1700 shp range to equate to the TPEs/PT6s.

Re other options, both the Argentine and Taiwanese S-2Ts have TPE-331-15AW turboprops rated at 1645 shp each:




Whilst the Turbo Firecat has PT6A-67AFs rated at 1700 shp each



Other options might include the GE CT7/T700 which starts out at about 1,622 shp and goes up from there (it is used on multiple platforms such as the CN-235 shown below).  One advantage from a Royal Australian Navy  POV would be that the basic engine is the same a the T700 used in the SeaHawks.



Another option might be something such as a member of the P&W 100 family (maybe a PW118, PW120 or PW123) which range in power from 1800 - 2400 shp and are used on multiple platforms scubas as Dash-8s or CL415s amongst others: