Beyond The Sprues
Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Land => Topic started by: M.A.D on March 02, 2016, 10:34:52 AM
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G'day gents
I'm in the process of formulating my 'Alternative ADF ORBAT', and from time to time will require the assistance/input of the forums vast knowledge please!
What Im asking today is the Western equivalent to the ubiquitous Soviet BRDM-2, in terms of dimensions, weight, capability and simplicity?
I've been reviewing my books and have focused on the Fiat Type 6616 APC/Reconnaissance vehicle.
What does the forum think?
Have you any other suggestions?
P.S. also out of interest, does anyone have any idea of the turret ring size of both the BRDM and Type 6616?
M.A.D
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That's something I was looking into myself recently, too, MAD. Short version is...no. There are some close equivalents in different ways, but it kind of depends on what you're looking for.
I'd say the closest equivalent, though, is something like the Cadillac Gage Commando. Similar size, capabilities, and armament, but it was never really designed for the same role. In general, though, dedicated Western recon vehicles were more commonly tracked (M114, Scimitar), less frequently amphibious (Ferret, Panhard AML), and/or far more expensive (Fox, Luchs).
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Bl61xvAefCA/Uu78Hsf3JiI/AAAAAAAABvc/1H9gtXfNdu4/s1600/4557825655_22f6e1c6da.jpg)
On the plus side, I understand that most brands of straitjacket are easier to get in and out of quickly than the BRDM-2. You'd think that would be important in a recon vehicle, but what do I know?
Personally, I love recon vehicles, especially turreted, well-armed ones. I think they're some of the best looking military vehicles out there, but if I had to be really boring and sensible, I think something like a small, light, cheap, simple, and amphibious wheeled armored vehicle with the room for a couple of dismounts is probably ideal. The BRDM-2 isn't bad (especially for 1962), but I actually think the BRDM-1 was a bit better in concept, it's just that it wasn't suitable for the nuclear battlefield. I don't think the West stumbled upon anything comparable until the Puma 4x4, Otokar Cobra, or VBL (my personal favorite).
Cheers,
Logan
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Thanks for your informative reply and insight Logan!
My retentitiveness re the similarities in size, weight and charictoristics to that of the BRDM-2, will become more relevant when my 'Alternative ADF ORBAT' is eventually posted!
What I can say, is just like the '9K31 Strela (SA-9 'Gaskin'), which had to meet the requirement's of air transportable in a Antonov An-12 'Cub', the Western equivilant needs to be all-up, air transportable by the ubiquitous Locked C-130 Hercules! If you get my drift ;)
So you don't see the Fiat Type 6616 in this league Logan?
M.A.D
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It's definitely roughly analogous. It was never widely adopted, though, especially in that role, so I don't know much about how it would have compared. The Western wheeled APCs that also had a recon variant always made me wonder just how mobile they really were. If you wanted to take a little more serious look at it, I'd also calculate the power-to-weight ratio of the recon vehicles you're looking at compared to the BRDM-2 and something like a Fox (which was pretty zippy, just not amphibious).
Cheers,
Logan
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M.A.D.: Does your 'Alternative ADF ORBAT' include ASLAV? If so, what about a LAV-2 equivalent to the Piranha 1B 4x4 or Mowag Spy?
The result would be a bit heavier than your OTO Melara tipo 6616 but it would be available a decade earlier (and you'd gain from fleet commonality).
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M.A.D.: Does your 'Alternative ADF ORBAT' include ASLAV? If so, what about a LAV-2 equivalent to the Piranha 1B 4x4 or Mowag Spy?
I don't think the West has any small(ish) amphibious wheeled recon vehicles. The closest are the LAVs and variants and they're almost 1.5x the weight.
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Ferret Mk.4 was amphibious, as long as the skirts were up. ;D
(http://www.amphibiousvehicle.net/amphi/F/Ferret/fox-skurts-01.jpeg)
http://www.warwheels.net/ferret4INDEX.html (http://www.warwheels.net/ferret4INDEX.html)
Looking through both War Wheels:
http://www.warwheels.net/index.html (http://www.warwheels.net/index.html)
and The Amphiclopedia:
http://www.amphibiousvehicle.net/frame.html (http://www.amphibiousvehicle.net/frame.html)
it becomes clear that 4 X 4 amphibious armored vehciles are thin on the ground, which makes it
likely that the amphibious feature is actually of very limited utility.
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ASLAV-Recce 4x4s: http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg104149#msg104149 (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg104149#msg104149)
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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/HMMWV_BRDM_OPFOR.jpg
I'll get my coat ;)
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Ferret Mk.4 was amphibious, as long as the skirts were up. ;D
([url]http://www.amphibiousvehicle.net/amphi/F/Ferret/fox-skurts-01.jpeg[/url])
I think you'll find that "Ferret" is in fact a Fox, Jon...
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I think you'll find that "Ferret" is in fact a Fox, Logan...
I think you'll find that "Logan" is in fact a Jon, Rickshaw... ;D
Cheers,
Logan
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Cadillac Gage Commando
([url]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Bl61xvAefCA/Uu78Hsf3JiI/AAAAAAAABvc/1H9gtXfNdu4/s1600/4557825655_22f6e1c6da.jpg[/url])
Hmmm...a western equivalent to the various anti-tank BRDMs based upon the Commando would be interesting.
(http://weaponsystems.net/image/s-lightbox/n-9P133/--/img/ws/iw_atgw_at3_m09.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/BRDM-2_Anti-tank_vehicle.jpg/1600px-BRDM-2_Anti-tank_vehicle.jpg)
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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/HMMWV_BRDM_OPFOR.jpg
A visual improvement to the Humvee, IMHO :D
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If amphibious capability isn't mandatory, the Dutch/German Fennek vehicle could be considered similar:
(http://www.military-today.com/apc/fennek_l1.jpg)
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I think you'll find that "Ferret" is in fact a Fox, Logan...
I think you'll find that "Logan" is in fact a Jon, Rickshaw... ;D
Cheers,
Logan
Oops, sorry! :o
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(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/BRDM-2_Anti-tank_vehicle.jpg/1600px-BRDM-2_Anti-tank_vehicle.jpg)
This was after the Soviet occupation of Ireland was it? ;)
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I think you'll find that "Ferret" is in fact a Fox, Logan...
I think you'll find that "Logan" is in fact a Jon, Rickshaw... ;D
Oops, sorry! :o
No problem. The opportunity was just too good to pass up. ;)
Cheers,
Logan
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This was after the Soviet occupation of Ireland was it? ;)
Maybe...or was it the Irish occupation of Russia? :icon_beer:
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Fiat Type 6616
Speaking of which, I found out today that DEF Model offer a 1/35 kit of the Fiat CM6614 which is essentially the same as a 6616:
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzIwWDcyMA==/z/1fkAAOSwoudW4Y60/$_12.JPG)
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Speaking of which, I found out today that DEF Model offer a 1/35 kit of the Fiat CM6614 which is essentially the same as a 6616:
It's a shame for whiffers that they don't do the 6616 because it's turret has been used on lots of other vehicles, both production and prototypes. Sometimes it carries the 25mm Bushmaster instead of the Rh.202.
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One to warp your scenario a bit...Peruvian Fiat 6616s with Soviet 9M14 Malyutka (AT-3 Sagger) missiles:
(http://img.bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/files/BEMIL085/upload/2007/08/Peruvian%20Fiat%206616_03.jpg)
(http://cfs6.blog.daum.net/image/8/blog/2007/12/19/20/22/4768fefb1f7a5&filename=4.jpg)
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It's a shame for whiffers that they don't do the 6616 because it's turret has been used on lots of other vehicles, both production and prototypes. Sometimes it carries the 25mm Bushmaster instead of the Rh.202.
If you want to play with these scales, there are 1/72 (Brach Models) and 1/87 (Mr Modellbau) kits of the 6616 available.
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One to warp your scenario a bit...Peruvian Fiat 6616s with Soviet 9M14 Malyutka (AT-3 Sagger) missiles:
Those are not a very realistic models. Almost no weathering, paint is far too uniform, no surface detail, vision port edges have silvering and the tire sag looks poorly done.
oh, wait... never mind.
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One to warp your scenario a bit...Peruvian Fiat 6616s with Soviet 9M14 Malyutka (AT-3 Sagger) missiles:
Those are not a very realistic models. Almost no weathering, paint is far too uniform, no surface detail, vision port edges have silvering and the tire sag looks poorly done.
oh, wait... never mind.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :icon_zombie: :icon_fsm:
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You could almost use a HobbyBoss LAV-150 (20mm?) to scratch-bash one of those in 1/35th. ???
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A very much belated appreciation for your views and suggestions everyone!!!
I'm still chipping away at this 😔
MAD
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Cadillac Gage V-150 Commando w/ 40mm - .50 cal turret
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=6576.0 (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=6576.0)
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how about a Super-Ferret ?
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Well, we have this;
Original (2016/2017);
(https://photos.smugmug.com/ASLAV-4x4/i-gJWn73p/0/fa344fbd/L/DSCN4235-L.jpg)
With St Javelin fitted (2019);
(https://photos.smugmug.com/ASLAV-4x4/i-dGmhfpM/0/4f5f0d18/XL/IMG_2059-XL.jpg)
https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=6197.50 (https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=6197.50)
Or this;
The backstory for which looks strangely familiar, despite being written in 2020! :icon_surprised: ;
(https://photos.smugmug.com/LAV-150-Turret-TOW/i-jH58kfp/0/3d7c6d5f/X2/DSCN7695-X2.jpg)
https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=9377.0 (https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=9377.0)
An interesting trio;
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Ukrainian-BRDM-2-slight-whif/i-Hkqw8FM/0/e15c3c7e/L/IMG_2359-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Ukrainian-BRDM-2-slight-whif/i-ZVxJwp9/0/479532a7/L/IMG_2360-L.jpg)
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how about a Super-Ferret ?
(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.210827576.4080/fpp,small,lustre,wall_texture,product,750x1000.u2.jpg)
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how about a Super-Ferret ?
(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.210827576.4080/fpp,small,lustre,wall_texture,product,750x1000.u2.jpg)
Thought a Super-Ferret was a Fox . . . ;) ;D
cheers,
Robin.
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Well, we have this;
Original (2016/2017);
(https://photos.smugmug.com/ASLAV-4x4/i-gJWn73p/0/fa344fbd/L/DSCN4235-L.jpg)
With St Javelin fitted (2019);
(https://photos.smugmug.com/ASLAV-4x4/i-dGmhfpM/0/4f5f0d18/XL/IMG_2059-XL.jpg)
https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=6197.50 (https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=6197.50)
Or this;
The backstory for which looks strangely familiar, despite being written in 2020! :icon_surprised: ;
(https://photos.smugmug.com/LAV-150-Turret-TOW/i-jH58kfp/0/3d7c6d5f/X2/DSCN7695-X2.jpg)
https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=9377.0 (https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=9377.0)
An interesting trio;
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Ukrainian-BRDM-2-slight-whif/i-Hkqw8FM/0/e15c3c7e/L/IMG_2359-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Ukrainian-BRDM-2-slight-whif/i-ZVxJwp9/0/479532a7/L/IMG_2360-L.jpg)
Awesome models Old Wombat 😍
Love the 4x4 LAV!
That trio of gives a great scale differance (well more correctly similarity) of the dimensions of the Commando and BRDM-2 👍
Any chance of a head-on comparrison photo of the Commando & BRDM-2?
P.S. Does anyone have any details on the price of the Cadillac Gage V-100 and the Fiat CM6614/CM6616? Naturally, cost/affordability is a big consideration in my Alternative ADF ORBAT
MAD
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Don't have a head-on view, unfortunately, this is the closest thing I have to it;
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Ukrainian-BRDM-2-slight-whif/i-3jWPsnv/0/ece240e1/L/IMG_2362-L.jpg)
(I should, probably, crop the image to reduce the amount of unsightly workspace behind the chair.)
[Note to self: You really should finish the crew & dio for the LAV-150, old son!]
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Does anyone have any details on the price of the Cadillac Gage V-100 and the Fiat CM6614/CM6616? Naturally, cost/affordability is a big consideration in my Alternative ADF ORBAT
Best I could find:
V-150S Unit cost: US$280,000 to $350,000 for V-150S with armament in 1992
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By the way, in case it's not obvious, I should point out that this is my styrene interpretation;
(https://photos.smugmug.com/ASLAV-4x4/i-gJWn73p/0/fa344fbd/L/DSCN4235-L.jpg)
of this digital creation by apophenia;
(http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=351.0;attach=12873;image)
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:smiley:
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Does anyone have any details on the price of the Cadillac Gage V-100 and the Fiat CM6614/CM6616? Naturally, cost/affordability is a big consideration in my Alternative ADF ORBAT
Best I could find:
V-150S Unit cost: US$280,000 to $350,000 for V-150S with armament in 1992
Good on ya Greg 👍
MAD