AVRO Vulcan Ideas and Inspiration

[elmayerle]

TSSAM = Tri-Service Standoff Attack Missile (AGM-137A, BGM-137B) It was an all-aspects low observables conventionally-armed cruise missile with either a single large unitary warhead or a dispenser for various submunitions.  The structure for the dispenser earned the "bullwinkle" name.  The program was cancelled when Northrop's mismanagement drove the unit cost too high and it was replaced by a new program, JASSM.  JASSM-ER, assuming they finish development and deploy it will have similar range but only frontal low observables.  Before it was cancelled, an extended range version of TSSAM was going to be offered up for the UK's requirement for a conventional cruise missile. The ground-launched version for the US Army would've been launched from its launch pod using two solid-fuel boosters; engineering for Northrop's side of these was among my repsonisiblities on that program.

[Volkodav]

Just reading something on the Vulcan and saw Argentina made an application to buy a number of Vulcans in September 1981!

Argentina
In the early 1980s, Argentina approached the UK with a proposal to buy a number of Vulcans. An application, made in September 1981, requested the 'early availability' of a 'suitable aircraft'. With some reluctance, ministers approved the export of a single aircraft but emphasised that clearance had not been given for the sale of a larger number. A letter from the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office to the Ministry of Defence in January 1982 stated that little prospect was seen of this happening without ascertaining the Argentine interest and whether such interest was genuine: 'On the face of it, a strike aircraft would be entirely suitable for an attack on the Falklands.'[61] Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands less than three months later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Vulcan

[PR19_Kit]

Cynical bleeders, weren't they?

Wouldn't it have been ironic if they had bought it and it had been shot down by a SHAR?

[GTX_Admin]

I doubt they would have made it to Argentina by then let alone entered service.

[Rickshaw]

The Argentines had a history of buying heavy bombers from the UK.  They'd operated a squadron of Lancasters in the 1950s.  IIRC also some Halifax transports went to Argentina.

[GTX_Admin]

The Argentines had a history of buying heavy bombers from the UK.  They'd operated a squadron of Lancasters in the 1950s.  IIRC also some Halifax transports went to Argentina.

 I know that and I am not doubting they showed interest and would have been able to operate them successfully.  My doubt is tied to the prospect of making enquiries in 1981 and then getting them in operational service in time for the 1982 Falklands War.

[Volkodav]

The Argentines had a history of buying heavy bombers from the UK.  They'd operated a squadron of Lancasters in the 1950s.  IIRC also some Halifax transports went to Argentina.

 I know that and I am not doubting they showed interest and would have been able to operate them successfully.  My doubt is tied to the prospect of making enquiries in 1981 and then getting them in operational service in time for the 1982 Falklands War.

Maybe they would have waited if the buy had been approved, they would have had the bombers and the RAN would have had Invincible, much better odds for Argentina then.

[Silver Fox]

Perhaps the British would have used the purchased, but as yet undelivered, Vulcan on Black Buck missions. :)

Now THAT would have sucked for the Argentines!

[PR19_Kit]

Perhaps the British would have used the purchased, but as yet undelivered, Vulcan on Black Buck missions. :)

Now THAT would have sucked for the Argentines!

It could have been the delivery flight, just flew via Port Stanley instead of directly to BA.  :)

[Volkodav]

Or deliver them prewired with some nasty surprises hidden away in various black boxes and around the airframes that are activated at the push of a button 

[mrvr6]

supersonic vulcan?





lend lease vulcan?

[Volkodav]

 :)

[Silver Fox]

LOL! Megavulcan from "Flight of the Old Hound".

[GTX_Admin]

Interesting!

[mrvr6]

LOL! Megavulcan from "Flight of the Old Hound".

ooh tell me more

[Volkodav]

What sort of scheme would a RAAF Vulcan have flown in had Scherger got his way and we ordered them in the 50s?  I believe we were looking at two squadrons of B1s, but the B2 would have been available by the time we placed an order, and that we were looking at a MOTS purchase rather than local construction.  The Vulcan was the preferred option but the Victor would have been nice, or even the Valiant (the B2 would have been outstanding) if we had placed an earlier order, perhaps if we had acquired a higher performance bomber than the Lincoln its replacement could have been delayed until the Valiant was available.

Keep the Sabres, drop the Lincoln and Canberra, buy FB and NF Venoms and then V Bombers instead.  Maybe replace the NF Venoms with Javelins in the late 50s 

[Rickshaw]

Any V-Bomber would have more than likely worn for at least the first 10 years of it's life what ever the RAF wore when it was delivered.   So, it would have more than likely been either anti-Flash White or perhaps grey and green splinter, IMO.

If Scherger had his way, of course, we would have needed the anti-Flash White scheme. 

After ~10 years you might see it adopting something else, such as SEAC?   However, I doubt it.  Our F-111s only adopted that 'cause it was how they were delivered.  Ditto for the F-4Es.   The Canberras were initially silver and then later grey and green and that was how they served in SVN as well.  So, perhaps very late in life, an all over grey scheme, similar to the late F-111s?

[ysi_maniac]

Love that supersonic Vulcan

[kengeorge]

Bump(!) pt2.

There I was checking out the Secret projects site and a member called Pioneer, asked some interesting questions regarding the Vulcan.
Seeing that the Vulcan squadrons were stood down six months after Operation Corporate, he asks, amongst other questions,-
Why was the Vulcan retired, was it redundant, surplus to requirements, out of airframe hours, too expensive, or other?
Now this being whiffworld, I would like to ask some questions to the more enlightened members here, well more enlightened than me that is, regarding an Upgrade or Service Life Extension Programme (SLEP)
SLEP 1, Avionics upgrade, suggestions please
SLEP 2 Airframe fatigue life extension cockpit improvements and aerodynamic tweaks,
SLEP 3, all the above plus engines and any thing else you can think of.
what Weapons, EW, ECM would you suggest?
I have some ideas regarding SLEP 2 and 3 but really I'm interested in any comments, suggestions or references you guys and gals may have.
Over to you

Ken.

 

[Rickshaw]

No need for SLEP 2 airframe fatigue extension.  Vulcans had oodles of airframe life left when they were retired.  Scrapping them was the problem, they were so well put together!  Like the Buccaneer, they weren't built, they were hewn from large blocks of metal. 

[GTX_Admin]

BTW, I believe you will find that "Pioneer" is a member here...

[kengeorge]

Rickshaw,
I wasn't aware of just how strong the Vulcan's airframe was. I know the Buccaneer is/was built like a battleship and have a video(!) somewhere, that shows the Bucc's wing skins being milled from aluminum planks.
So here's my idea's,
SLEP 1
Avionics,
the Terrain following radar from the tornado GR.4, 
Digital jam resistant radios,
Satcom,GPS,
Night vision compatible cockpit,
Wide angle Head up displays for both pilots,
Glass cockpit, with HDD's
FLIR and LLTV blisters under the nose like the B-52,
Extendable laser designation turret similar to the A-6's TRAM
Link 16 JTIDS, Chaff and flare dispensers under the rear fuselage,
Reduce the crew to 4 (pilot, Co-pilot, Navigator, Weapon systems operator/Observer.

SLEP 3
All the above plus-
Wing re-skinning, where necessary, Replacement of all metal control surfaces weapons bay doors, leading edge and non load bearing panels with Carbon/GRP ones,
Engines, replace the Olympus' with EJ200's (non afterburning), different intakes, like mrvr6's the supersonic Vulcan.
Replacing the nose section with an entirely new one with better windscreen, ejector seats for all crew, ogive radome, semi-retractable IFR probe also similar to mrvr6's the supersonic Vulcan.
removal of all unnecessary wiring and rewired pylons for Storm Shadow, Paveway LGB's, Taurus cruise missiles, HARM or ALARM
and reactivation of the Vulcan's other Skybolt pylons re-plumbed for drop tanks.
I have no idea if there is any room in a Vulcan's bay for a rotary launcher, like the one in the B-1B. If not, see if I could squeeze one in by bulging out the bay doors and hang LGB's Sea Eagles or Harpoon's on them.
I want to try and use off the shelf kit where ever possible to keep it affordable.
Can't think of anything else.
Does that sound right or wide of the mark?
Comments, suggestions either good or bad are more than welcome

Ken.

[Modelnut53]

Have a friend who is a B-52 fan and I always have him on that Americans should have bought the Vulcan.
Love this.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Vulcan vs NORAD: Vulcan 2, USAF 0

Mark Felton video on the RAF participation in two large scale exercises in the US pitting the Vulcan against NORAD.  Vulcan wins twice. 

[elmayerle]

Vulcan vs NORAD: Vulcan 2, USAF 0

Mark Felton video on the RAF participation in two large scale exercises in the US pitting the Vulcan against NORAD.  Vulcan wins twice.

ISTR that there was a technothriller that had an unannounced penetration over CONUS by Vulcans as a major plot point.