Beyond The Sprues
Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Aero-space => Topic started by: kitnut617 on March 25, 2012, 06:23:05 AM
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I've got another idea forming for an advanced Avro Vulcan. While chatting with Jeff about the possible purchase of a Vulcan kit or two, I started thinking about what I would do with them and my first thoughts were to do a Vulcan MR.1 variant. My thinking is to attach the long underbody pannier that you find on a BAe Nimrod. This is not too much of a problem because the fuselage diamters of a Vulcan and Nimrod are very close to being the same, 9'-3" (Vulcan) to 9'-9" although the Airfix Nimrod seems to scale out to 10'-2 1/2". Mind you 5 1/2" in 1/72 scale is very small, a tad bigger than a 1/16" so it wouldn't be noticed.
Thinking about how I would cut the pannier off one of the Nimrods I have got me to match up some parts, and as I still have the wings not attached to my Atlantic, made it that much easier. But then I thought why bother cutting the pannier off the Nimrod when I could use the Nimrod fuselage completely, and this is why.
I'm thinking of making a Vulcan which will have the engine bays I'm planning for the Pacific version of the Atlantic, this would have CFM56 engines. And I'm thinking that I really need a bigger diameter fuselage to build a Vulcan like that, not as big as the Atlantic though which is at 12'-6" diameter.
Here's a pic of the Vulcan fan fronts that come in the Airfix kit compared to the engine fronts which will represent the CFM56's
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The reason why I think I need a bigger diameter fuselage is because after I draw up the new engine bay section of the wing, the inner chord profile will be bigger.
In this picture below you can see two chords, these are traced around the chord faces of the inner wings I'm attaching to the Atlantic (which will have the kit fan fronts). What I did was very carefully measured each chord along where the kit wing halves are, I then drew in my AutoCad program a line that represents both lengths. These I divided into equal parts and drew in some lines perpendicular to the datum line. Carefully lining up the wing I then traced around it, now I can measure this off in the AutoCad and create an exact chord profile. I will then space off the two lines and then join the corresponding points along each chord until I make an inner wing section in my drawing. From here I can extend these lines to the new inner wing width that will accomodate the CFM56 fan fronts. This will make the inner chord bigger which is why I will need a bigger fuselage.
The bottom photo is of the inner wing section as I'm using it on the Atlantic, from inner chord to outer chord it measures 1 7/16" wide, the new inner wing will measure 2" wide. The outer chord will remain the same as this is where the outer wing attaches.
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How about some export Vulcans? Maybe India for something different...
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Indian is a great idea
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Indian is a great idea
Some of the Indian MiG-21 schemes provide an enticing option too!
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May I suggest a nice Jaguar scheme
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"Reverse Lend-Lease" Vulcans in USAF markings and SEA camoflage over 'Nam? In Euro One camo and USAFE markings? In white with day-glo red markings of the USAF Experimental Test Pilot's School? In gull gray and white as a USN maritme patrol aircraft?
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I did a total of 5 Vulcan profiles over the years in USAF markings.
Regards,
John
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I'd love to put a pointy nose on it.
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Love Vulcaneer and Silent Vulcan :-* :-* :)
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Yeah, the Silent Vulcan is gorgeous!!!
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Well done, Jose. Wonder how a Vulc' would look in pusher turboprops ?
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Those are cool. :)
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:)
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Last years USAF Vulcan.
(http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/031-10.jpg)
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http://aircraftart.purpleglen.com/images/UK/AVRO/PROFILE%20-%20UK-AVRO-698400-vulcanb2.gif (http://aircraftart.purpleglen.com/images/UK/AVRO/PROFILE%20-%20UK-AVRO-698400-vulcanb2.gif)
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Cool stuff all around.
I just picked up the Dragon 1/200 Vulcan yesterday and have this idea for a Luftwaffe version.
I've decided already to put it in Norm 81 camo
(http://www.jpsmodell.de/dc/draw/f4fn81b1.jpg)
As for the mission; I'm tossed between an ECM role that would let me use the "Black Buck" fit that came in the kit, or an anti shipping version in which I could rework the Blue Steel that also came with the kit into a jet propelled conventional anti ship missile on par with some of what the Soviets slung under their planes.
It will be a slight bit of scaleorama as the decals will be coming from a Revell 1/144 Tornado kit.
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Last years USAF Vulcan.
Oh yeah!!! :)
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Last years USAF Vulcan.
([url]http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/031-10.jpg[/url])
SHINY! :)
Very nice.
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Hi Guys,
Bit of a Bump(!)
A question,can anyone tell me the dimensions of the Vulcan's bomb bay?
According to Wikipedia the Vulcan's conventional maximum warload is 21x1000lb GP bombs. I have found out a British 1000lb GP is 72.5in (6ft 1.5in) (1841.5mm) long.
So how are the bombs stacked? in threes or what? if threes, then the bay length is 45ft. 42ft with 6in separation between fuses.
Surely not? An Avro Blue Steel is 35ft long and semi-recessed in the bomb bay.
So hopefully somebody can help me out.
Thanks,
Ken...
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The bomb 'clips' carry seven bombs each, four at top and three below. The Vulcan could carry three clips, the Victor on the other hand could carry five I think. The Vulcans bomb bay is governed by the front and rear wing spar which restricts what it could ultimately carry, measuring the Airfix kit the bay is 30'-0" long
Below is the rack which is shown upside down
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Thanks Kit that helps a lot with what I got in mind.
Ken.
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I've read somewhere that the RAF (or A&AEE to be more accurate) developed a rack that could carry ten bombs to fit in the Vulcan and Victor, but I can't find where I read that now. I also can't figure out how it was done either -- :icon_crap:
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It probably requires some very careful shaping of the structure. A similar piece of structure for TSSAM was labelled the "Bullwinkle" because it resembled moose antlers.
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I've got Signal Squadron's 'In Action' books on the B-52, B-1 & B-2. There's some photos in one of them (B-1 I think) that shows a set up where the rack arms are all set at about 45 degrees. It looks like as the bombs leave each rack the arm swings down to make a clear space for the bombs above, is that the TSSAM you've mentioned Evan ?
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TSSAM = Tri-Service Standoff Attack Missile (AGM-137A, BGM-137B) It was an all-aspects low observables conventionally-armed cruise missile with either a single large unitary warhead or a dispenser for various submunitions. The structure for the dispenser earned the "bullwinkle" name. The program was cancelled when Northrop's mismanagement drove the unit cost too high and it was replaced by a new program, JASSM. JASSM-ER, assuming they finish development and deploy it will have similar range but only frontal low observables. Before it was cancelled, an extended range version of TSSAM was going to be offered up for the UK's requirement for a conventional cruise missile. The ground-launched version for the US Army would've been launched from its launch pod using two solid-fuel boosters; engineering for Northrop's side of these was among my repsonisiblities on that program.
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Just reading something on the Vulcan and saw Argentina made an application to buy a number of Vulcans in September 1981!
Argentina
In the early 1980s, Argentina approached the UK with a proposal to buy a number of Vulcans. An application, made in September 1981, requested the 'early availability' of a 'suitable aircraft'. With some reluctance, ministers approved the export of a single aircraft but emphasised that clearance had not been given for the sale of a larger number. A letter from the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office to the Ministry of Defence in January 1982 stated that little prospect was seen of this happening without ascertaining the Argentine interest and whether such interest was genuine: 'On the face of it, a strike aircraft would be entirely suitable for an attack on the Falklands.'[61] Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands less than three months later.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Vulcan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Vulcan)
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Cynical bleeders, weren't they?
Wouldn't it have been ironic if they had bought it and it had been shot down by a SHAR?
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I doubt they would have made it to Argentina by then let alone entered service.
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The Argentines had a history of buying heavy bombers from the UK. They'd operated a squadron of Lancasters in the 1950s. IIRC also some Halifax transports went to Argentina.
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The Argentines had a history of buying heavy bombers from the UK. They'd operated a squadron of Lancasters in the 1950s. IIRC also some Halifax transports went to Argentina.
I know that and I am not doubting they showed interest and would have been able to operate them successfully. My doubt is tied to the prospect of making enquiries in 1981 and then getting them in operational service in time for the 1982 Falklands War.
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The Argentines had a history of buying heavy bombers from the UK. They'd operated a squadron of Lancasters in the 1950s. IIRC also some Halifax transports went to Argentina.
I know that and I am not doubting they showed interest and would have been able to operate them successfully. My doubt is tied to the prospect of making enquiries in 1981 and then getting them in operational service in time for the 1982 Falklands War.
Maybe they would have waited if the buy had been approved, they would have had the bombers and the RAN would have had Invincible, much better odds for Argentina then.
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Perhaps the British would have used the purchased, but as yet undelivered, Vulcan on Black Buck missions. :)
Now THAT would have sucked for the Argentines!
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Perhaps the British would have used the purchased, but as yet undelivered, Vulcan on Black Buck missions. :)
Now THAT would have sucked for the Argentines!
It could have been the delivery flight, just flew via Port Stanley instead of directly to BA. :)
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Or deliver them prewired with some nasty surprises hidden away in various black boxes and around the airframes that are activated at the push of a button ;D
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supersonic vulcan?
(http://i44.tinypic.com/34s5blt.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/hvcuoj.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2dvj1hg.jpg)
lend lease vulcan?
(http://i42.tinypic.com/w6xjk5.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/24brcy1.jpg)
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:)
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LOL! Megavulcan from "Flight of the Old Hound". ;)
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Interesting!
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LOL! Megavulcan from "Flight of the Old Hound". ;)
ooh tell me more
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What sort of scheme would a RAAF Vulcan have flown in had Scherger got his way and we ordered them in the 50s? I believe we were looking at two squadrons of B1s, but the B2 would have been available by the time we placed an order, and that we were looking at a MOTS purchase rather than local construction. The Vulcan was the preferred option but the Victor would have been nice, or even the Valiant (the B2 would have been outstanding) if we had placed an earlier order, perhaps if we had acquired a higher performance bomber than the Lincoln its replacement could have been delayed until the Valiant was available.
Keep the Sabres, drop the Lincoln and Canberra, buy FB and NF Venoms and then V Bombers instead. Maybe replace the NF Venoms with Javelins in the late 50s ;)
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Any V-Bomber would have more than likely worn for at least the first 10 years of it's life what ever the RAF wore when it was delivered. So, it would have more than likely been either anti-Flash White or perhaps grey and green splinter, IMO.
If Scherger had his way, of course, we would have needed the anti-Flash White scheme. ;)
After ~10 years you might see it adopting something else, such as SEAC? However, I doubt it. Our F-111s only adopted that 'cause it was how they were delivered. Ditto for the F-4Es. The Canberras were initially silver and then later grey and green and that was how they served in SVN as well. So, perhaps very late in life, an all over grey scheme, similar to the late F-111s?
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Love that supersonic Vulcan
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Bump(!) pt2.
There I was checking out the Secret projects site and a member called Pioneer, asked some interesting questions regarding the Vulcan.
Seeing that the Vulcan squadrons were stood down six months after Operation Corporate, he asks, amongst other questions,-
Why was the Vulcan retired, was it redundant, surplus to requirements, out of airframe hours, too expensive, or other?
Now this being whiffworld, I would like to ask some questions to the more enlightened members here, well more enlightened than me that is, regarding an Upgrade or Service Life Extension Programme (SLEP)
SLEP 1, Avionics upgrade, suggestions please
SLEP 2 Airframe fatigue life extension cockpit improvements and aerodynamic tweaks,
SLEP 3, all the above plus engines and any thing else you can think of.
what Weapons, EW, ECM would you suggest?
I have some ideas regarding SLEP 2 and 3 but really I'm interested in any comments, suggestions or references you guys and gals may have.
Over to you
Ken.
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No need for SLEP 2 airframe fatigue extension. Vulcans had oodles of airframe life left when they were retired. Scrapping them was the problem, they were so well put together! Like the Buccaneer, they weren't built, they were hewn from large blocks of metal. ;)
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BTW, I believe you will find that "Pioneer" is a member here... ;)
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Rickshaw,
I wasn't aware of just how strong the Vulcan's airframe was. I know the Buccaneer is/was built like a battleship and have a video(!) somewhere, that shows the Bucc's wing skins being milled from aluminum planks.
So here's my idea's,
SLEP 1
Avionics,
the Terrain following radar from the tornado GR.4,
Digital jam resistant radios,
Satcom,GPS,
Night vision compatible cockpit,
Wide angle Head up displays for both pilots,
Glass cockpit, with HDD's
FLIR and LLTV blisters under the nose like the B-52,
Extendable laser designation turret similar to the A-6's TRAM
Link 16 JTIDS, Chaff and flare dispensers under the rear fuselage,
Reduce the crew to 4 (pilot, Co-pilot, Navigator, Weapon systems operator/Observer.
SLEP 3
All the above plus-
Wing re-skinning, where necessary, Replacement of all metal control surfaces weapons bay doors, leading edge and non load bearing panels with Carbon/GRP ones,
Engines, replace the Olympus' with EJ200's (non afterburning), different intakes, like mrvr6's the supersonic Vulcan.
Replacing the nose section with an entirely new one with better windscreen, ejector seats for all crew, ogive radome, semi-retractable IFR probe also similar to mrvr6's the supersonic Vulcan.
removal of all unnecessary wiring and rewired pylons for Storm Shadow, Paveway LGB's, Taurus cruise missiles, HARM or ALARM
and reactivation of the Vulcan's other Skybolt pylons re-plumbed for drop tanks.
I have no idea if there is any room in a Vulcan's bay for a rotary launcher, like the one in the B-1B. If not, see if I could squeeze one in by bulging out the bay doors and hang LGB's Sea Eagles or Harpoon's on them.
I want to try and use off the shelf kit where ever possible to keep it affordable.
Can't think of anything else.
Does that sound right or wide of the mark?
Comments, suggestions either good or bad are more than welcome
Ken.
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Have a friend who is a B-52 fan and I always have him on that Americans should have bought the Vulcan.
Love this.
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Vulcan vs NORAD: Vulcan 2, USAF 0
Mark Felton video on the RAF participation in two large scale exercises in the US pitting the Vulcan against NORAD. Vulcan wins twice. (https://youtu.be/-Wx6npt421c)
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Vulcan vs NORAD: Vulcan 2, USAF 0
Mark Felton video on the RAF participation in two large scale exercises in the US pitting the Vulcan against NORAD. Vulcan wins twice. (https://youtu.be/-Wx6npt421c)
ISTR that there was a technothriller that had an unannounced penetration over CONUS by Vulcans as a major plot point.
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Does anyone have the dimensions of the Vulcan's bomb-bay? I'm wondering about a variant with a rotary launcher with the likes of AGM-86 and /or AGM-69 missiles.
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Does anyone have the dimensions of the Vulcan's bomb-bay? I'm wondering about a variant with a rotary launcher with the likes of AGM-86 and /or AGM-69 missiles.
The old Airfix Vulcan kit has it's closed bomb bay doors as a separate item, it measures 29'-0" by 10'-0". The doors when opened retract into the bomb bay. I've read that all the V-Bombers were to have 30'-0" long bomb bays.
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Ok, a quick check indicates the Vulcan bombay was ~8.5m long x ~3.2m wide x ~1.6m deep. The useable size to allow for weapons release though was probably sightly below all of those dimensions.
Looking at the AGM-69 and AGM-86 we see:
AGM-69:
Length: 4.27 m without tail fairing
Diameter: 0.44 m
AGM-86:
Length: 6.3 m
Diameter: 0.62 m
Therefore, theoretically both should fit, though a rotary launcher might still be tight.
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Vulcan as an AEW platform. It was proposed. Radome is made by Joe Warner Cherrie (aka tsrjoe).
See Page 124 in Chris Gibson's "Battle Flight"
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Landing would have been...interesting.
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Hot off the Hannants newsletter today, Airfix's 'New Tool' Vulcan. It gives you a much better idea of what's in the bomb bay.
Mind you, if you want to go with a V-Bomber with a rotary launcher, go with the Victor, it had a much deeper bomb bay. Although it still had a 30'-0" long bomb bay, they could stack five of those 7-bomb clips inside it.
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:smiley:
With you re the Victor + it could theoretically be fitted with the underwing carriers as well.
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a couple of my profiles ...
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:smiley:
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Had an idea many years ago for a Rapid Airborne Delivery Variant. Customised panniers would fit into the bomb bay, partially external, and used in various roles. One would carry fully equipped commandos to the front lines, or even behind the lines, in a disposable pannier that would be dropped at low altitude and slowed by parachutes. Another could be for resupply of infantry weapons and ammunition. Medevac panniers would allow for quick removal of serious cases to fully equipped hospitals.
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Needs a bit more
craziness work.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52021201380_a87199c2b9_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nfWfMb)Vulcan shuttle (https://flic.kr/p/2nfWfMb) by Dave Bailey (https://www.flickr.com/photos/190327384@N02/), on Flickr
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I love Vulcansky. :smiley: :icon_alabanza:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/Russcan.V3.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/caec78e4-057f-4fe9-82f4-083a43455765/p/3080b97e-9d55-4d3d-84c6-1d08b7f62da0)
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Needs a bit more craziness work.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52021201380_a87199c2b9_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nfWfMb)Vulcan shuttle (https://flic.kr/p/2nfWfMb) by Dave Bailey (https://www.flickr.com/photos/190327384@N02/), on Flickr
Hey ! A Vulcan in 'Black Diamonds' markings . . . ;D
cheers,
Robin.
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Supersonic Vulcan. Only image so far.
(https://scontent.fxds1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/366667683_307234291684060_8125819125012145961_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=7f8c78&_nc_ohc=k-_erkQMYl0AX-9L_cm&_nc_ht=scontent.fxds1-1.fna&oh=00_AfBh03Jyzad41U7PJtWIG620DGlnSNplH26IGhAsItZ9rA&oe=64DAF704)
Robert Austin (kitnut617) would have been all over this like hair on a Gorilla.
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:smiley:
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Anyone got a bunch ofAIM-54 Phoenix's?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTjjjZwWUAAggqt?format=jpg&name=medium)
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Nice :smiley: 8)
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Had an idea many years ago for a Rapid Airborne Delivery Variant. Customised panniers would fit into the bomb bay, partially external, and used in various roles. One would carry fully equipped commandos to the front lines, or even behind the lines, in a disposable pannier that would be dropped at low altitude and slowed by parachutes. Another could be for resupply of infantry weapons and ammunition. Medevac panniers would allow for quick removal of serious cases to fully equipped hospitals.
Need one in FedEx markings delivering packages in time for Christmas! 🎄
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A short video from YouTube created by D Train to show off his recently built Airfix 1/72nd scale Vulcan B.3 what-if models armed with modern weapons for an imaginary conflict:
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ogHDj4ylbWM/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEcCNACELwBSFXyq4qpAw4IARUAAIhCGAFwAcABBg==&rs=AOn4CLBLOkipf8LkdK5TGrGB_GwsjCi9Zg)
(Image source: DTrain1634 YouTube Channel (https://www.youtube.com/@dtrain1634/videos))
Forget the Bone! The Avro Vulcan B.3 rules! Two modernised 1/72 what if Malagasy 🇲🇬 Vulcans! (https://youtu.be/ogHDj4ylbWM?si=9fHkTJ0VOCVpIqyC)