Author Topic: Panavia Tornado possibilities  (Read 19226 times)

Offline upnorth

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Panavia Tornado possibilities
« on: February 19, 2012, 09:25:46 PM »
Hello all:

I notice we don't have one of these types of thread for the Tornado. I think it would actually be a good excercise to see what more could be done with a combat aircraft that's already done a fair bit in the real world, make our brains work a bit more. ;)

I remember several years ago I slapped some USN decals from an F-8 Crusader (VF-2 as I recall) onto the cruddy old 1/72 Monogram Tonado kit, bu otherwise built it from the box.

The thought hit me more recently of what if the Bundesmarine had a carrier force with the Tornado as fleet defence? What sort of mods would be needed to make it a real carrier contender.

Basing my idea on the premise that the Bundesmarine used both the ADV and IDS on their ships, I came up with this list of mods that I think would be common to both:

Beefed up landing gear with towbar on lose leg and lighter tailhook replaced with carrier type.

Thrust reverser system deleted. It would be extra weight and a corrosion trap on carriers.

Folding hinge on tail fin.

Make the radome hinge able to swing through 180 degrees for storage and seal the radome and avionics compartment at this hinge point:

net photo

It did strike me to think of it as a joint project with Grumman. If I look at the similarities between the main landing gear on the Tornado and on the A-6 Intruder, I could see Panavia turning to a proven hand in carrier aircraft to get things like that right. There some aspects of the Intruder gear that I think could be adapted to the Tornado's for strengthening.

Considering the range of weaponry and missions the Tornado can adapt to, having a carrier capable variation on the family would certainly be attractive if it's creator nations had conventional carriers.

Now I know very well that I'm not the first to entertain ideas of a navalised Tornado and that the above are just my take on the idea of getting more milage from the design.

What else could be done with the "Fin"?

Looking forward to whatever other ideas might be lurking in other brains.


« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 09:27:19 PM by upnorth »
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2012, 04:36:27 AM »
Well, I've always thought of doing an "enhanced" IDS variant with the fuselage extension of the ADV.  Another thought would be to look at the enhanced aerodynamics of the Tomcat 21 and see how much of that could be transferred to the ADV to make it more agile.  There is a series of novels that came out sometime back about a NATO squadron flying greatly improved ADV's that was later joined by another squadron flying similarly enhanced IDS's; these had to have come out in the 1980s or early 1990s as the Soviet Union was, in one form or another, the main adversary.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2012, 08:23:01 AM »
The carrier version is a good idea and very credible. I doubt whether we'd have had to go to Grumman for carrier landing gear know-how though, given Britain's long experience with carrier aircraft.

What occured to me some years ago, seeing an article about how ADVs used ALARMs and their enhanced RHAWS kit as SEAD in 2003 in Iraq, was that in a less budget-constrained world, a couple of squadrons of the ADVs could be converted to a proper SEAD aircraft once the Typhoon took over their interceptor role. The way I see it is that the SEAD avionics would fit in place of the radar, with additional black boxes in a conformal "canoe" that hangs from the fuselage hardpoints, blanking off the Skyflash stations, but providing two ALARM pylons on corner stations. There's be an enlarged pod on the fin, and four more ALARMs on the Sidewinder rails (they will fit), with the usual Skyshadow and BOZ pods outboard. Alternately, if the funtions of the latter pods could be done internally, then you could have a pair of ALARMs or ASRAAMs on the outboard pylons and eliminate the gun for more black box space.
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Offline upnorth

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2012, 01:39:58 PM »
The carrier version is a good idea and very credible. I doubt whether we'd have had to go to Grumman for carrier landing gear know-how though, given Britain's long experience with carrier aircraft.

What occured to me some years ago, seeing an article about how ADVs used ALARMs and their enhanced RHAWS kit as SEAD in 2003 in Iraq, was that in a less budget-constrained world, a couple of squadrons of the ADVs could be converted to a proper SEAD aircraft once the Typhoon took over their interceptor role. The way I see it is that the SEAD avionics would fit in place of the radar, with additional black boxes in a conformal "canoe" that hangs from the fuselage hardpoints, blanking off the Skyflash stations, but providing two ALARM pylons on corner stations. There's be an enlarged pod on the fin, and four more ALARMs on the Sidewinder rails (they will fit), with the usual Skyshadow and BOZ pods outboard. Alternately, if the funtions of the latter pods could be done internally, then you could have a pair of ALARMs or ASRAAMs on the outboard pylons and eliminate the gun for more black box space.

The SEAD role was a great idea to keep the ADVs going and somehow I think it could have been done without putting too many warts on the outside of the machine.

I talked to an F.3 pilot once about the aircraft in the SEAD role and he said it looked very promissing for the job.

It would be a great WHIFF to do up a Wild Weasle Tornado.

Removing the gun would be logical in any case as the SEAD mission doesn't require it.

As for external warts, I could easily see an enlarged spine for housing more gear. It would be sort of like you see on the F-16 these days.
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Offline jcf

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2012, 09:41:14 AM »


 :icon_fsm:
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2012, 02:39:44 AM »
RAAF Tornados to replace the F-111s in the late '80s/early '90s.
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Offline Maverick

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2012, 06:25:54 AM »
Did a total of 28 Tonka profiles including the usual suspects along with one I dubbed the 'FGR.5' which was an ADV baseline with GR systems and USAF Weasels off the GR & ADV baselines.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline upnorth

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2012, 12:45:24 PM »
Did a total of 28 Tonka profiles including the usual suspects along with one I dubbed the 'FGR.5' which was an ADV baseline with GR systems and USAF Weasels off the GR & ADV baselines.

Regards,

John

As I said, I know I'm not the first to meddle with these ides for the Tornado! ;D

I do remember a few of those Tornado profiles you did, John. Some very inspiring stuff.
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2012, 05:51:54 PM »
How about posting some of those profiles rather then just talking about them...
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Offline Maverick

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2012, 07:56:38 PM »
Over 5000 profiles, it sometimes is difficult to mention everything or, in fact, repost everything.






Regards,

John

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2012, 02:07:24 AM »
Thank you :)
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2012, 11:45:45 PM »



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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2012, 02:19:45 AM »
How about a Chinese PLAAF Tornado?
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2012, 05:52:13 AM »
That F-111/Tornado combination might actually work if some scale-o-rama were to be applied by using a larger scale Tornado with a smaller scale F-111 to get around that wide fuselage problem. 
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Offline Geoff

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2012, 07:28:03 PM »
RAAF Tornados to replace the F-111s in the late '80s/early '90s.

Thats an idea

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2012, 10:05:43 PM »
Or something like this

Offline KiwiZac

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2013, 01:52:23 PM »
I found an old bagged Airfix MRCA kit and was wondering what to do with it. Greg's idea of an RAAF F-111 replacement is what I was thinking, any other suggestions?
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2013, 01:54:55 PM »
Maybe a RNZAF one?  Say that as part if the RAAF deal New Zealand also managed to negotiate a joint buy to get a Sqn's worth.  This would have the effect of reducing the unit price for both potentially.
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Offline KiwiZac

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2013, 02:28:11 PM »
Not a silly idea...

However, what clothes would a shiny new RAAF Tonka wear?
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2013, 02:55:50 PM »
Please tell me why the Tornado F.3's were scrapped?   Is it just me or did they have a short service life?  Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 03:50:01 AM by Daryl J. »
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Offline KiwiZac

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2013, 02:59:32 PM »
Daz, if I may I'll refer you to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado_ADV#Royal_Air_Force

According to that the F.3 served with the RAF from 1986 to 2011.
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2013, 03:00:07 PM »
Please tell me why the Tornado F.3's were scrapped?   Is it just me or id they have a short service life?  Thanks.

They were designed to counter a specific threat.  Now that, that threat has receded, they were no longer needed and their role as an interceptor (not a fighter) could be just as easily covered by the Typhoon.

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2013, 03:31:39 PM »
Not a silly idea...

However, what clothes would a shiny new RAAF Tonka wear?


Really depends upon when you introduce them.. If they were to be introduced as an early F-111 replacement, it tend to think something similar to this:

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Offline KiwiZac

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2013, 03:36:47 PM »
Done! And now to find some decals...I have the Italeri Hawk ones but I think they may be a bit small...
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2013, 03:39:06 PM »
I think you will want either 1 or 6 SQN'S markings.
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Offline KiwiZac

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2013, 03:51:25 PM »
Lots of bombs, a couple of AIM-9s for protection. Which squadron was/is the more mudmover-ey one?
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2013, 03:57:56 PM »
1Sqn...though for something different you could go with 6Sqn and arm it with ALARM as a dedicated SEAD unit. 
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Offline KiwiZac

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2013, 04:13:35 PM »
Hmm, intriguing...
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2013, 04:14:23 PM »
What scale are you looking at?
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Offline KiwiZac

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2013, 04:22:05 PM »
I have the old (1976ish) Airfix 1/72 MRCA  :)
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2013, 04:58:29 PM »
Novascale do copies of the decals you would want in 1/72.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2013, 10:36:56 PM »
Didn't RAAF F-111s have an anti-ship role with Harpoon too? If so, then an RAAF Tonka could certainly carry a couple, as per the Sea Eagle-armed GR.1Bs that the RAF used to use.
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2013, 02:16:03 AM »
Another good suggestion.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 02:18:55 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2013, 08:45:18 AM »
Didn't RAAF F-111s have an anti-ship role with Harpoon too? If so, then an RAAF Tonka could certainly carry a couple, as per the Sea Eagle-armed GR.1Bs that the RAF used to use.


Yes, the RAAF's F-111Cs could carry Harpoons (not sure if they could carry four but I know they could definitely carrying two).  Only F-111s cleared to carry them, I believe.  Made them a very potent anti-shipping weapon.   Interestingly,
the only time they ever carried out an anti-shipping strike in public, they used laser-guided bombs.

Offline Diamondback

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2013, 11:33:09 AM »
Interesting idea, loading up a Tornado with Harpoons/SLAMs, or with ARMS...

BTW, MangoKing, I see whatcha did there with your av and sig--Shockwave from G1 Transformers IIRC.

Offline upnorth

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2013, 03:16:38 PM »
I should think that who the Tornadoes are bought from would determine the likely anti ship missile. By to British standard and get Sea Eagles, buy to German standard and get Kormorans.

I think one of the sadder aspects of the Tornado F.3 retirement was that the SEAD variation they were playing with for a while didn't go into service. According to an F.3 pilot I talked to once, the aircraft was doing quite well in testing for the role and quite many people were optimistic about the aircraft being able to remain in service once the interceptor role was phased out.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2013, 08:50:00 PM »
Yeah - I've thought about doing a couple of special mission Tornado ADVs from the two squadrons left in service after the introduction of the Typhoon:

1. SEAD with extra electronics in place of the radar and guns and either GR.1 belly pylons or a ventral "canoe".

2. Photo-recce with the RAPTOR pod: the F.3's better high altitude performance should let it lift the sensor higher than the GR.4. Not sure if it's possible, but another option might be to re-package the guts of the RAPTOR into an extended nose in place of the radar, thus reducing drag.

Never realised: Airfix did a 1/48th EF.3:

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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2013, 12:39:05 AM »
I have that kit.   It's, well, ugly.
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Offline KiwiZac

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2013, 03:38:19 PM »
BTW, MangoKing, I see whatcha did there with your av and sig--Shockwave from G1 Transformers IIRC.

 8)

Lots of great ideas guys! So many weapon loads to choose from...at least I have the camo sorted!
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2013, 03:53:48 AM »
The all new Revell 1:48 Tornado is being awaited with interest.   :)
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2013, 04:12:56 AM »
The all new Revell 1:48 Tornado is being awaited with interest.   :)

Any link to provide additional details? 
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2013, 04:36:50 AM »
Very late 2013, IDS variant. 
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2013, 07:07:33 AM »
Very late 2013, IDS variant.

So it could very well be the Italeri Tornado IDS in a Revell box.
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2013, 07:20:58 AM »
Tried to PM but my iPad and BtS are not 100% compatible right now for whatever reason.

No...it's all new tool.    :)
But right now with RoG, that could mean serious concerns..... :-\
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2013, 11:44:30 AM »
The sprue test shots look great.   

And if Revell indeed render the Italeri kit redundant, it would make a great basis for a fixed wing GR.whatever.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2013, 03:23:04 PM »
And if Revell indeed render the Italeri kit redundant, it would make a great basis for a fixed wing GR.whatever.
Perhaps using the wings of a 1/100 F-15 as a starting place?  The thought had crossed my mind.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2013, 03:48:22 PM »
Assuming the UK, Italy and Germany all operate the Mirage F-1 and Mirage 2000 how about a larger more Bomberish Tornado.  An ADV nose profile with bigger engines (broader longer fuselage) and internal weapons bay, an F-111 / SU24 sort of aircraft.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2013, 11:15:00 PM »
And if Revell indeed render the Italeri kit redundant, it would make a great basis for a fixed wing GR.whatever.
Perhaps using the wings of a 1/100 F-15 as a starting place?  The thought had crossed my mind.

Hmm!  possible (top pic), or even 1/72 F-18C wings (bottom pic)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2013, 12:20:05 AM »
How about TSR 2 wings?

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2013, 03:34:49 AM »
Quote
How about TSR 2 wings?

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2013, 06:12:08 AM »
I'm thinking that TSR.2 wings would be a touch on the large side, but not totally unsuitable.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2013, 06:58:02 AM »
More proportionate and scratch built  than a transfer of a 1/72 or 1/48 kit's parts.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2013, 07:30:01 AM »
More proportionate and scratch built  than a transfer of a 1/72 or 1/48 kit's parts.
Perhaps in 1/100, much like the F-15 wings I suggested?

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2013, 07:47:52 AM »
With the downturn.   :)
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2013, 09:51:15 AM »
Jaguar wings.  :icon_fsm:
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2013, 11:34:14 AM »
I'm thinking that same-scale jaguar wings would be a bit small, being for a lighter airframe with less powerful engines.  I'm probably trim down some 1/48 Jaguar, or Mitsubishi T-2/F-1, wings until they looked "right" and use them if I wanted that planform.

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2013, 01:43:34 PM »
My kits are 1:48 so scratch built wings...or modified F-15 wings from the Monogram kit.
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #57 on: November 10, 2013, 01:50:45 PM »
For a 1/48 Tornado, 1/72 F-15 wings?  By the same  token, 1/72 TSR.2 wings?

Going the other way, I'm still considering using 1/48 Tornado wings and adjacent structure to do a V-G TSR.2 in 1/72 (probably carve up teh old Contrail vac-form for that).

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2013, 03:37:06 PM »
Fixed wings: old F-15's


XL

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2013, 06:01:48 PM »
the jag wings look spot on!!

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #60 on: November 24, 2013, 09:10:07 PM »
Always thought a CTOL carrier capable Tornado would be the go had the UK kept their conventional carriers.  Initially a GR1 based Bucc replacement then a F3/Tornado 2000 Phantom replacement.

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #61 on: January 05, 2014, 04:50:06 AM »
Found online:

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2014, 09:59:24 PM »
Niiice!
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #63 on: February 08, 2014, 02:41:02 AM »


« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 02:44:05 AM by taiidantomcat »
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #64 on: February 08, 2014, 03:20:01 AM »
Some impressive load outs:



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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #65 on: February 08, 2014, 03:20:30 AM »
This would make an interesting scene to model as a diorama:

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #66 on: February 08, 2014, 04:28:30 PM »
How about instead of upgrading the GR1 to GR4 the RAF converted the newer more powerful F3 fleet into FA4 strike fighters based loosely on the Tornado 2000 concepts from the early 90s?

A slight fuselage stretch, re-engine, new radar and integrated IRST.  It would retain full capability as an interceptor with improved radar and missiles as well as a gaining a superior strike capability to the GR4.

The entire GR1/4 fleet would be retired and the Jaguars and Harriers enhanced in their place.  :)

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #67 on: February 09, 2014, 08:37:17 AM »
How about instead of upgrading the GR1 to GR4 the RAF converted the newer more powerful F3 fleet into FA4 strike fighters based loosely on the Tornado 2000 concepts from the early 90s?

A slight fuselage stretch, re-engine, new radar and integrated IRST.  It would retain full capability as an interceptor with improved radar and missiles as well as a gaining a superior strike capability to the GR4.

The entire GR1/4 fleet would be retired and the Jaguars and Harriers enhanced in their place.  :)
Re-engine with EJ200's for commonality with Typhoons?  Another odd thought, upgrade the LERX with something similar to what was proposed for the Tomcat 21.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #68 on: February 09, 2014, 08:54:44 AM »
Sounds good.

Nobody wanted the F3 as an interceptor when there were F-16 fighter bombers available but the GR1/4 would have been a different proposition if sold as a ECR, ASVW, or stand off strike platform, the UK could possibly have sold quite a few of their surplus aircraft had they retained the F3 instead.

The Jaguars and Harriers could have been upgraded to fill CAS and tactical interdiction leaving the FA4 in a predominantly stand off role.  The Harrier in particular had a promising upgrade path as evidenced by the US AV-8B+, a similar radar conversion to the GR5/7 would have permitted the retention of the carriers as well.  The RAF could have co-developed a Jaguar upgrade with India, possibly using avionics from the Harrier upgrade  and core engine upgrades shared with the Hawk to further save costs.

A WIFF yes but I could actually see something like the above delivering greater capability at less overall cost out until the full service introduction of the Typhoon and F-35.

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #69 on: February 09, 2014, 09:52:35 AM »
Hmm, Tornado FA.4's with Harrier FGR.11's and Jaguar FGR.5's sounds like a potent order of battle.  Perhaps add the F.2/F.3/FA.4 fuselage extension to GR.1's as part of an EGR.5 conversion package for British and export use?

Note: Harrier FGR.11 with either the AN/APG-65 radar of the AV-8B+ or with the Blue Vixen, perhaps even an improved version thereof, from the Sea Harrier FA.2.  Or if you really want commonality, the Typhoon's radar and IRST.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 09:55:34 AM by elmayerle »

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #70 on: February 09, 2014, 10:06:53 AM »
The Jaguars were exetensively upgraded during the 1990s anyway. After the Gulf War, the RAF got a taste for using and abusing the UOR (Urgent Operational Requirement) system to get things done quickly and cheaply without the usual MoD procurement pantomime. This saw Jaguar '96, '97 and (partially) Jaguar '98 upgrades done, which gave the aircraft upgraded engines, a re-vamped digital cockpit, TIALD, Paveway, new recce pod, HMS, NVGs, and GPS/TERPROM. These were known as GR.3As
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #71 on: February 09, 2014, 12:13:17 PM »
Yes I remember reading up on those, interestingly the article I read stated that as it was seen as an aging platform everything done was with the intent of reducing operational costs and improving reliability as the platform approached retirement.  The side effect was a not insignificant improvement in performance in addition to the improved reliability and reduced costs, the upgrades worked so well that you have to wonder why similar concepts aren't used on all in service assets.

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #72 on: February 09, 2014, 01:07:02 PM »
the upgrades worked so well that you have to wonder why similar concepts aren't used on all in service assets.

Because bypassing the proper acquisition routes causes all sort of long term sustainability issues.
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #73 on: February 09, 2014, 01:28:25 PM »
I understand that but what they achieved was accelerated configuration change replacing obsolete, no-longer sustainable items with new, superior in production MOTS and COTS alternatives.  Long term sustainment was actually improved.

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #74 on: February 09, 2014, 01:35:13 PM »
Once upon a time there was talk of a single seat Panavia 'Tornado'
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #75 on: February 09, 2014, 01:37:49 PM »
I understand that but what they achieved was accelerated configuration change replacing obsolete, no-longer sustainable items with new, superior in production MOTS and COTS alternatives.  Long term sustainment was actually improved.

I am talking about spares, trained maintainers, maintenance/support programs, manuals, full analysis of impacts etc etc...all those things that are often overlooked in contingency mods/UORs but which will come back to haunt you should the platform remain in service for any period of time without addressing them.
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #76 on: February 09, 2014, 02:06:13 PM »
Was that the GE F404 powered derivative that West Germany considered as an alternative to the Typhoon?

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #77 on: February 09, 2014, 02:35:40 PM »
No. It is the Panavia model 100 which was a single seat version considered early on in the MRCA development.
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #78 on: February 09, 2014, 02:38:57 PM »
the Tornado 2000 concepts from the early 90s?


Speaking of which, this doesn't seem to be included to date.
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #79 on: February 09, 2014, 02:45:45 PM »
One idea I have had for a while is to do a Tornado heavy air wing for a '80s era CVA-01 based HMS Queen Elizabeth II carrier.  This would involve Sea Tornado IDS variants for anti shipping/strike etc and Sea Tordnado ADVs for air defence.  Would possibly make for an interesting alternate Falklands war.
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #80 on: February 09, 2014, 02:53:11 PM »
Random Idea: Indian Air Force Tornados
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #81 on: February 09, 2014, 04:08:54 PM »
One idea I have had for a while is to do a Tornado heavy air wing for a '80s era CVA-01 based HMS Queen Elizabeth II carrier.  This would involve Sea Tornado IDS variants for anti shipping/strike etc and Sea Tordnado ADVs for air defence.  Would possibly make for an interesting alternate Falklands war.

Check reply #60  ;)

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #82 on: February 09, 2014, 04:14:33 PM »
Great minds think alike...or fools never differ ;)
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #83 on: February 09, 2014, 05:52:59 PM »
Bit of both.

I was looking at doing it years ago pre kids and mortgage the idea being the air-group of a modern day CVA (not necessarily the CVA01 design).  F and FA Tornados based on the ADV.

Offline Silver Fox

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #84 on: February 10, 2014, 01:57:35 AM »
Not as attractive looking, but I would base a CV variant on the shorter fuselage of the IDS if possible. Stowage on a carrier is always cramped. I'm not sure of the planform... would a Tonka benefit from oversweep like a Tomcat?

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #85 on: February 10, 2014, 02:00:45 AM »
Would it need it Silver Fox ? it's much smaller than an F-14

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #86 on: February 10, 2014, 04:17:43 AM »
Once upon a time there was talk of a single seat Panavia 'Tornado'
That is too much tail for one person to handle on their own ;)
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #87 on: February 10, 2014, 04:42:56 AM »
I understand that but what they achieved was accelerated configuration change replacing obsolete, no-longer sustainable items with new, superior in production MOTS and COTS alternatives.  Long term sustainment was actually improved.

I am talking about spares, trained maintainers, maintenance/support programs, manuals, full analysis of impacts etc etc...all those things that are often overlooked in contingency mods/UORs but which will come back to haunt you should the platform remain in service for any period of time without addressing them.

That's a fair comment for genuine UORs, but the Jag upgrades were really a properly engineered, sensibly organised project of the kind you'd hope the MoD would run in an ideal world. The fact that in the real world the MoD does anything but that lead them to use the UOR mechanism primarily as a means of  bypassing the BS, but they were in no sense "lash-ups".

The "spend-to-save" arguments should also be taken with a partial pinch of salt too. There was certainly some of that effect in practice, but the RAF had been asking for an engine upgrade since the early 1980s and the sensor/weapon enhancements were a staightforward capability increase.
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #88 on: February 10, 2014, 04:53:53 AM »
At a guesstimate, the Tonka would be about 2 meters narrower if it could oversweep. Whether you need it or not is a function of the size of your carrier and the size of your air wing. It looks to be a lot of complexity to achieve... commonality would go down the tubes.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #89 on: February 10, 2014, 09:52:38 AM »
I understand that but what they achieved was accelerated configuration change replacing obsolete, no-longer sustainable items with new, superior in production MOTS and COTS alternatives.  Long term sustainment was actually improved.

I am talking about spares, trained maintainers, maintenance/support programs, manuals, full analysis of impacts etc etc...all those things that are often overlooked in contingency mods/UORs but which will come back to haunt you should the platform remain in service for any period of time without addressing them.

Missed this earlier.  Yes I agree, on the Jaguar however I understand that they did all of this as it happened pre UOR as a life extension of an aging platform until such time as its replacement entered service.  What differed, as I remember reading, was that the procurement cycle was improved to provide faster decisions and approvals getting the new gear in service as quickly as possible.  I am trying to remember where I read this and if I do I will dig it out, it was a very interesting read.

Offline uncle les

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #90 on: February 10, 2014, 05:19:35 PM »
My two cents..  in glorious 1/32


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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #91 on: February 10, 2014, 06:16:00 PM »
Über Cool! :)
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #92 on: June 01, 2014, 05:27:28 AM »
I wonder if one could bash a Tornado into a HF73 like creation (Note, I don't believe this is a correct rendering of the final design):

« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 05:29:02 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #93 on: June 01, 2014, 05:35:20 AM »
This would make an interesting scene to model as a diorama:

Definitely a good use for the Airfix 1:48th scale Tornado kit. 
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #94 on: June 01, 2014, 09:20:25 AM »
I wonder if one could bash a Tornado into a HF73 like creation (Note, I don't believe this is a correct rendering of the final design):



Going by other published sources, it's definitely not the final design.  However, I would estimate that the wings from a 1/100 F-15 would be a good starting place to blend with a 1/72 Tornado F.3 fuselage.  The vertical and horizontal tails might need to come from a 1/100 F-14 if such exists, or possibly a 1/72 F-18 with some reshaping.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #95 on: June 01, 2014, 12:10:53 PM »
Ace, from Korea (not the the similarly named Russian kit manufacturer) makes a 1/100 F-14.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #96 on: June 01, 2014, 07:24:14 PM »
There's also the Model Hobby Kits F-14 which is about 1/100th, although it says nothing on the box. It's a horrible semi-toy thing, but dirt cheap and good for bits.

Academy make a nicer one and Revell do a pre-painted snap-together one, although the latter is a bit pricey for chopping up.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #97 on: June 01, 2014, 09:30:03 PM »
I wonder if one could bash a Tornado into a HF73 like creation (Note, I don't believe this is a correct rendering of the final design):



Going by other published sources, it's definitely not the final design.  However, I would estimate that the wings from a 1/100 F-15 would be a good starting place to blend with a 1/72 Tornado F.3 fuselage.  The vertical and horizontal tails might need to come from a 1/100 F-14 if such exists, or possibly a 1/72 F-18 with some reshaping.


See my pic in Reply #48 --

Offline mrvr6

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #98 on: October 05, 2015, 04:22:58 PM »
what weapons and sensors etc do current tornados use?
does anybody make a 72 kit of it with the right bits?
is there anywhere i can get another set of those pieces?

im planning a twin (maybe even triple) build with a modern tornado and tsr2

Offline trickyrich

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #99 on: October 05, 2015, 07:50:22 PM »
how about a non-swing wing Tornado?? Whatif they developed a delta winged version or fixed wing version with wings similar to the F-15/18?? Would be a very interesting look especially with the high wing, sort of a UK/Europe version of the F-15!

Offline mrvr6

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #100 on: October 05, 2015, 07:52:27 PM »
maybe in future but not for this build

Offline trickyrich

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #101 on: October 05, 2015, 08:03:10 PM »
your best bet is to get a Revell Typhoon, it have a nice range of weapons. Don't know who turns out a set of modern one suitable.

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #102 on: October 10, 2015, 08:49:09 PM »
Hasegawa do a 1/72 weapon set that includes storm shadow, brimstone and alarm

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #103 on: October 10, 2015, 11:54:47 PM »
your best bet is to get a Revell Typhoon, it have a nice range of weapons. Don't know who turns out a set of modern one suitable.

Try the Airfix Tornado GR.4 kit, it comes free with the weapons set that's in the box   :P (guess how I know   ;)  )

Offline mrvr6

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #104 on: October 11, 2015, 02:04:09 AM »
your best bet is to get a Revell Typhoon, it have a nice range of weapons. Don't know who turns out a set of modern one suitable.

Try the Airfix Tornado GR.4 kit, it comes free with the weapons set that's in the box   :P (guess how I know   ;)  )

thats what iv done ie buy a revel and airfix kit and il make the revel a gr4 hopeful;ly with enough left over to give the tsr2 the same treatment

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #105 on: October 11, 2015, 08:12:21 AM »
Hmmm...give the TSR.2 some Tornado intakes and weapons...
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #106 on: October 11, 2015, 01:35:40 PM »
I've got 1/144 dragon Tornado GR4 and F3, as well as F/A-18E and F-14D each being two kits per box, and am seriously considering buying a Revell Tiffy as well.  The aim is to build a FAA Sea Tornado, a FGA, FRS, or FA based on the F.3 airframe, the idea being this is the type the UK develops to replace the Phantom and Buccaneer on the Queen Elisabeth (CVA01) class carriers in the 80s through until 2020.

Offline mrvr6

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #107 on: October 11, 2015, 06:58:21 PM »
Hmmm...give the TSR.2 some Tornado intakes and weapons...


like this?




im going to be starting a conventional tsr2 in modern grey with tornado gr4 loadout

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #108 on: October 11, 2015, 07:28:29 PM »
The 1/72 Revell GR.1 also has some nice sprues of things for under the wings.

Individual pictures of the sprues can be found here: Model Making
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #109 on: October 24, 2017, 02:39:38 AM »
Single seat Tornado


Offline M.A.D

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #110 on: October 24, 2017, 10:07:11 AM »
Single seat Tornado




Now that's cool!! :-)


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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #111 on: October 24, 2017, 05:41:58 PM »
Hmmm...give the TSR.2 some Tornado intakes and weapons...

There is this painting .......

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #112 on: October 25, 2017, 01:21:48 AM »
I thought this had already been posted here:



All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #113 on: October 25, 2017, 04:30:46 PM »
Nice Tornadoes.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #114 on: October 25, 2017, 04:53:51 PM »
 :smiley:

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #115 on: March 13, 2018, 11:14:54 AM »


 :icon_fsm:

Something like this in the USAF's "Asia Minor" colors and scheme pattern and a "WS" tailcode for an aircraft based out of an un-surrendered (as it was by the US DoS rather than the USAF) Wheelus AFB.

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #116 on: March 14, 2018, 01:58:25 AM »
I like the idea of a USAF tornado in this sort of scheme:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #117 on: March 14, 2018, 06:45:58 PM »
I have been thinking about US Tornados as well.  First idea is the IDS as a USAF A-7 replacement, ADV as an F-106 replacement and a carrier version of each for the Essex class carriers reactivated under Reagan.

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #118 on: May 10, 2018, 04:21:08 AM »
How about instead of upgrading the GR1 to GR4 the RAF converted the newer more powerful F3 fleet into FA4 strike fighters based loosely on the Tornado 2000 concepts from the early 90s?

A slight fuselage stretch, re-engine, new radar and integrated IRST.  It would retain full capability as an interceptor with improved radar and missiles as well as a gaining a superior strike capability to the GR4.


I had a similar notion Volkodav, but I thought incorporating all the Tornado IDS systems, including fuselage weapons stations into the slightly longer ‘stretched’ Tornado F3 fuselage and it’s improved RB199 Mk.104 engines, hence giving the ‘stretched Tornado IDS' improved acceleration, and importantly greater internal fuel capacity, equalling better range.


M.A.D