Author Topic: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 51278 times)

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Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« on: February 12, 2012, 05:13:29 AM »
Hi folks,

A thread dedicated to your land based Anti-Aircraft system ideas and inspiration.  This includes, Self Propelled Anti-Aircraft systems (SPAAGS), Surface to Air Missiles (SAMs) and anything else that matches...including even oddities such as this:

Zippermeyer Wirbelwind Kanone:



Quote
Dr. Zippermeyer, an eccentric Austrian inventor working at an experimental establishment at Lofer in the Tyrol, designed and built a series of highly unorthodox anti-aircraft weapons that were observed very closely by the Reichsluftfahrtamt (Office of Aeronautics) in Berlin. Due to the overwhelming numerical air superiority of the Allies every effort was made during the last year of the war to find ways of exploiting any known phenomenon that could bring down the heavy bombers of the USAAF and RAF.
 
Dr. Zippermeyer constructed both a huge Wirbelwind Kanone (Whirlwind Cannon) and Turbulenz Kanone (Vortex Cannon). Both had the same goal - to knock down enemy bombers through clever manipulation of air.

To achieve this, the “Wind Cannon” used a detonation of hydrogen and oxygen to form a highly compressed plug of air that was channeled through a long tube that was bent at an angle and fired like a shell towards enemy aircraft. Impossible as this may seem the Wind Cannon did particularly well on the ground - breaking one inch thick wooden boards from a range of 200 yards! This promising development, however, meant nothing against the Allied bombers that were flying at 20,000 ft! Nevertheless, taken from the Hillersleben Proving Grounds the Wind Cannon was used in defense of a bridge over the Elbe River in 1945. Either there were no aircraft present or the cannon had no effect because it was still intact where it was found.
 
The Turbulenz Kanone, by comparison, was a large caliber mortar sunk into the ground with fired coal dust and slow burning explosive shells to create an artificial vortex. This also worked well on the ground but again the problem was the same - how to generate a large enough effect to reach the aircraft. Zippermeyer did not know if the pressure changes of this device would be sufficient to cause structural damage to an aircraft but the vortex would definitely have an effect on the wing loading as even clear air turbulence had brought down civilian airliners.


Regards,

Greg
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2012, 06:35:30 AM »
Does anyone know if you can get a kit in 1/35 of the Green Mace Anti-Aircraft Gun?




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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2012, 06:56:37 AM »
The question would be more "what 35th scale AAGs can you get?"  As a rule they're very rare on the ground excepting Bofors & German kit in general.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2012, 04:55:35 AM »
I dub thee "Porcupine":

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2012, 04:58:06 AM »
Add Vertical launched AMRAAM to a LVTP7 and what do you get?  This:

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2012, 05:06:36 AM »
M2 based SPAAS:

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2012, 05:08:43 AM »
Well, not necessarily a SPAAG...but one could imagine:




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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2012, 05:25:12 AM »
Why on earth didn't they fit that 'Green Mace' gun in a tank chassis - it would have been awesome!!

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2012, 05:42:46 AM »
Imagine it in the anti-tank role?
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2012, 07:46:13 AM »
That's what I meant - imagine the firepower!

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2012, 12:14:51 PM »
Rate of fire would have been impressive but the L7 105mm tank gun had a higher muzzle velocity and so a better penetration - with standard AP.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2012, 06:11:27 PM »
Another:


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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2012, 02:44:22 AM »
Random idea:

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2012, 02:44:54 AM »
Rate of fire would have been impressive but the L7 105mm tank gun had a higher muzzle velocity and so a better penetration - with standard AP.

Maybe...but looking from a coolness factor... ;)
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2012, 02:46:12 AM »
Another random idea:

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Offline beowulf

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2012, 04:48:45 PM »
oooo...i like that one  :D
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2012, 12:00:30 AM »
Link to images of Diethelm Berlage's model of Project DRAGON SPAAG based on the Marder IFV in 1/35th scale on Track-Link

Link to all of Diethelm Berlage's models at Track Link

Wikipedia - Marder IFV
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2012, 02:49:16 AM »
I like how he has used the AMX 30 DCA turret - I have thought of doing the same as a starting point for a Matador.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 03:22:48 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2012, 02:56:42 AM »
One I came across a while back:

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2012, 08:06:24 AM »
I still like the Stuart light tanks with the quad .50's.
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2012, 01:33:47 PM »
I still like the Stuart light tanks with the quad .50's.


... or the Yugoslav M3A3 with the 20mm flakvierling:


« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 03:39:16 AM by jcf »
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2012, 05:07:18 AM »
Something a little different

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2012, 06:00:10 AM »
Wicked!  What was the story behind it?
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2012, 08:16:18 AM »
Wicked!  What was the story behind it?


Apparently it was something put together by Aberdeen Proving Ground just to see if it would work which makes it a shoe-in for the what-if world. 
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2012, 01:25:13 PM »
Would be interesting in the convoy protection role.
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2012, 05:47:17 PM »
Does anyone know if you can get a 1/35 kit if either of the following SANs:

SA-3 Goa (S-125 Neva/Pechora):



SA-5 Gammon (S-200 Angara/Vega/Dubna):

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2012, 06:56:05 PM »
As with the guns, it's more a case of any you can get rather than if a specific design is made.

There are kits of the SA-3 and I suspect the -5 in 72nd scale available.  A quick check of Panzershop's website shows nada and they would have been my first thought.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2012, 06:24:21 PM »
Gran produces the SA-3 in 1/72.  They have also promised a SA-5 in 1/72 but it hasn't appeared in the 2 years I know since the announcement.   There are no 1/35 scale kits that I'm aware of.  SA-2, SA-6 both by Trumpeter are the closest to it.  :(

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2012, 08:27:30 AM »
I dug out my 1/48th OEZ Mig-21 to do a BIG sam to target bombers .... but I'll need another set of 4 wings to do it.

     I now have the 4 booster rockets for the tail tho :icon_ninja:

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2012, 04:18:22 PM »
I dug out my 1/48th OEZ Mig-21 to do a BIG sam to target bombers .... but I'll need another set of 4 wings to do it.

     I now have the 4 booster rockets for the tail tho :icon_ninja:


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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2012, 03:07:46 AM »
Posted by Abe (aka AGRA) over in the M113 thread:

M113 with the ARES Talon 35mm gun.





Would look good beside a Tracked Rapier.

Circa 1979, based on the M548 TLC. Each gun fired at 1,200 rpm a 35mm shell at 1,175 mps.


I guess I wasn't too far off with this:

Random idea:


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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2012, 10:19:18 AM »
Random idea:  Cheiftain Marksman with existing cannon replaced with two 20mm M61 Vulcan gattling guns.
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2012, 03:24:55 AM »
About 10 years ago I was at the Cold Lake Airshow and on display was some Triple AAA airfield defence that the CAF deploys.  These units had twin guns which looked like 40mm Bofors, only they were set low in the turret and operated remotely from another unit which had a radar on it. Later in the weekend (we were there from Friday to Monday) there was a similated airfield attack and these anti-aircraft guns were put to use, demonstrating how they were used.  But do you think I can find any photos of this equipment on the internet, or any modern NATO or western stuff for that matter.  Can anyone point me to a link where these would be shown.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2012, 04:13:48 AM »
Probably the Oerlikon 35mm GDF-005 controlled by a Skyguard radar.



Canada phased them out a few years ago.

The Breda/Bofors twin 40mm was much less commonly used.  Here's a picture of one of Venezuela's systems.  It was far more common at sea.



Cheers,

Logan
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 05:51:57 AM by Logan Hartke »

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2012, 05:10:46 AM »
From what I can remember Logan, those don't quite look right.  This unit was on it's own trailer, the guns were in a turret and the guns themselves were set very low down, almost at the same level as the trailer frame.  I've seen some WWII German AAA that looks a little like it but without the guns being in a turret.

BTW, top pic just appears as the white square with the red cross through it.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2012, 05:32:54 AM »
Probably the Oerlikon 35mm KD Twin AA Gun and the Oerlikon Contraves Skyguard Radar to control it.  Canada had a total of 20 GDF-005 units and 10 Skyguard FC radars. 

Click on html or thumbnail image to learn more about the weapon system at Wikipedia.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 05:37:04 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2012, 05:53:24 AM »
From what I can remember Logan, those don't quite look right.  This unit was on it's own trailer, the guns were in a turret and the guns themselves were set very low down, almost at the same level as the trailer frame.  I've seen some WWII German AAA that looks a little like it but without the guns being in a turret.

BTW, top pic just appears as the white square with the red cross through it.


Yeah, that top photo was to the link below.  It's the same the Jeffry showed a picture of and that I'd linked to in my own post.  I've edited the first photo in mine to hopefully show up for you, now.

http://defense-update.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Oerlikon-GDF-35mm-AAA-Gun-1S.jpg

Cheers,

Logan

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2012, 06:31:09 AM »
Is there a gun system like those Logan, but where the muzzles are very similar to the 40mm Bofors guns we see in old war photos, with the reversed cone shape because that how I remember these guns being like.  On the demonstration they fired individually and one at a time but at a very rapid rate

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2012, 09:33:02 AM »
The various multi-gun systems pictured above sure look leathel for passing aircraft !
If you happen to come upon one when in a tank, I'd think things could get rather nasty too.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2012, 11:09:18 AM »
Is there a gun system like those Logan, but where the muzzles are very similar to the 40mm Bofors guns we see in old war photos, with the reversed cone shape because that how I remember these guns being like.  On the demonstration they fired individually and one at a time but at a very rapid rate

Maybe, but I'm not familiar with any such mount.

Cheers,

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2012, 11:27:16 PM »
Maybe, but I'm not familiar with any such mount.
Cheers,
Logan

I had a chat with my buddy this morning who was in the Canadian Army for over 30 years, I asked him if what I saw, was what I saw.  He immediately asked if the muzzles had cones on and when I said yes he said 'Bofors, they came off the ships'.  When I said were they installed in small turrets on trailers he said yes to that question.  Now I just need to find a photo or two of the set-up, I thought I had taken photos when I was at Cold Lake of them but it was back before digital cameras (at least me having a digital) so the photos are in a box somewhere but I can't find them now (too many house moves in a three years period to keep track of things)

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2012, 07:25:42 AM »
kit': This is very odd. The guns described sound very much like the 40mm/56 Mk.V Bofors from the old Tribal class DDEs. But those ships were paid off back in 1964-1966. The only Canadian naval guns converted to land-based AD I've ever heard of are the 40/60 Boffins.

Just for completeness, the 40mm Boffins were QF Bofors mounted on Mark VC Oerlikon mounts. 202 Workshop Depot modified them for airfield air defence duties in Germany. Boffins went to 128 AAD Bty RCA (Baden-Soellingen) and 129 AAD Bty RCA (Lahr) in 1975. But the single-barrelled Boffins didn't have turret covers.

BTW, after withdrawl in 1987, some of those Boffins went back to sea, arming the MCDV patrol boats.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2012, 10:45:40 PM »
Apop', googling photos of the two guns you list, neither look quite like what I saw, similar though.  The barrels of the AD guns I saw looked like the 40/60 barrels, only they were set low in a small turret in pairs like the 40mm/56 Mk.V.  The closest I can describe how the guns were mounted on the trailer is how you see this below, only with a turret

The turrets didn't look big enough for human loaders to be inside them but I might be wrong there.  IIRC there was more than one on display and they were controlled by a remote radar unit set on it's own trailer.

In the display area they were close together, but my buddy says they would have been placed more widely apart in the field.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2012, 06:06:09 PM »
Sure you weren't mistaking 20mm guns for 40mm ones?  Your picture is of a twin 20mm system.

The Rh202 based twin 20mm AA guns had cone flash hiders on their muzzles and they might have confused you (although I'm unaware of Canada ever operating such AA guns):



I am unaware also of any twin 40mm towed systems in use anywhere.  The only operational twin 40mm Bofors systems that I'm aware of that were land based were SPAA - US M19, M42 and M247 systems.  There were several experimental ones during WWII as well but they never reached production.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2012, 10:38:50 PM »
Further down the thread I said it was twin 40mm Bofors type guns set in a turret, I was describing how it looked and the pic I posted in my last post was the only pic I could find on how the unit looked with the guns mounted low down, I didn't say it was that particular unit.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2012, 11:20:22 PM »
OK, I know what I saw but I can't find anything on the internet of it.  I had thought it was Canadian but maybe it wasn't -- I was at the Cold Lake Airshow in 1999 (I have determined that) when I saw these guns and Cold Lake is the big NATO exercise grounds.  So they could have been another country's piece of equipment.  They were like a 40mm Bofor gun although I couldn't see inside the turret to view the breach end of the gun, so looking at various Triple AAA systems on the internet, I found something which it more closely looked like.  The guns on the M247 Sargent York are very similar to what I saw only they were not in such a big turret and it was mounted on a trailer with removable wheels. 

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2012, 06:14:31 PM »
I do not doubt you saw something.  I am endeavouring to try and help you figure out what it was.

I have just dug out my old copy of Jane's Towed Artillery (published 1977) there is perhaps one weapon which comes reasonably close to your description.  It is the Soviet 37mm M1939 AA gun, which mounted a single or twin 37mm AA guns on a common mounting and they had conical Flash Eliminators:



There is a better image here but it doesn't seem to allow linking directly to it - http://flamber.ru/files/photos/1211922554/1232648808_g.jpg

« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 06:32:32 PM by Rickshaw »

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2012, 10:24:04 PM »
That is getting closer to what I saw Brian, at least how the gun barrels looked,  but I'm endeavoring to find out what it was I saw.  I've been chatting further with my ex-Canadian Army buddy who spent a lot of his later years while in the service at The Military Museum in Calgary.  He told me he would contact a friend of his who specialises in this field so I'm in a holding pattern right now.  I am though leaning towards it being some NATO country who had them and was at the range on exercise, (Cold Lake and the Primrose Live Fire range is said to be as big as Western Europe in area).

The trailer part was similar to how the old German 88 frame was, one beam running front to back with outriggers. As far as I can remember the wheels came off, but they could have folded up at an angle too.  Just can't quite remember those details at the moment.  Now if those 37mm were mounted low like how that 20mm set-up is we would be getting closer.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 10:31:06 PM by kitnut617 »

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2012, 08:13:57 AM »
For people looking for something similar, the Chinese Type P793 is an updated version of Rickshaw's Soviet M1939.
http://www.jedsite.info/artillery-zulu/zulu/zp39_series/p793/p793.html

The Romanian A436 twin 30mm (firing Russian 30x210B) also fits the bill ... albeit, still without a turret cover.
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fi%C8%99ier:Batalionul_635_Ap%C4%83rare_Antiaerian%C4%83_%E2%80%9CPrecista%E2%80%9D_%2811%29.jpg

Still another is the Serbian 30/2 mm M53 (CS) -- ie: the towed gun, not the SP M53/70. Most M53s have multi-baffle muzzle brakes but some photos show a Bofors-like cone (the 4x4 SP prototype BOV-30 included).
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2012, 09:34:05 AM »
The thing that's bugging me is I'm sure there was Canadian troops operating it, so whether or not the Russian or Chinese systems are close to what I've described, I can't see Canada using them.  Anyway, still waiting to hear from my buddy --

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2012, 04:03:52 PM »
End of the Cold War plus the first Gulf War resulted in a LOT of ex-Soviet booty going to NATO ranges for greater realism.  I would be too surprised to find that some had reached Canada.   This is still a mystery and I'll be interested to hear what your friend has to say.

Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2012, 05:19:43 AM »
Kitnut, I'm almost positive you saw our GDF-005 and Skyguards. Around 1997, 4 AD Regt sent a detachment of Gun/SkyGuard to Cold Lake to train with the RCAF. As I recall, we fitted different muzzle brakes when firing blanks. The war shot muzzle 'brakes' incorporated fuze setting devices (ie for the AHEAD round) and looked quite a bit different than those fitted for blank ammo.

Its a good thing you got a chance to see them, as Canada no longer operates any kinetic Air Defence system. The 35mm guns, Skyguard FCU, Javelin, and ADATS have all been retired or placed in war stock.


Offline kitnut617

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2012, 07:00:08 AM »
Hi Gingie,  welcome to the forum.

Now you gave me a type designation I did a google image search.  There are a couple of photos there which certainly do resemble what I saw, what I don't remember was it being manned.  Were they ever completely enclosed like being a turret.

Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2012, 07:48:07 AM »
Well that is a good question regarding whether it is manned, because the answer is yes and no.

Typically, there was an operator seated in a chair aft and central of the gun breeches. However, the Skyguard was capable of operating the guns autonomously; the gunner's controls could be overtaken and if memory serves, he needed be in the seat at all. This feature would be used when the Skyguard operator got a vampire warning light and would basically hit the panic button which would slew both guns on to the inbound missile and fire a combat burst of AHEAD ammo. Caveat - it's been around 15 years since I took my Twin 35mm Troop Commanders Course, so I might have some details wrong.

As for being completely enclosed, there was an umbrella shaped cam net that could be deployed around the gun. The gunner's station I don't recall having any enclosure, other than sides, back and bars resembling a roll cage. The gunner would be belted in, in case the FCU went autonomous, it could traverse the guns at something like 360* in just over 2 seconds. May not sound like a lot, but trust me, when you are sitting in the chair, its moving!

Offline Litvyak

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2012, 07:57:31 AM »
Its a good thing you got a chance to see them, as Canada no longer operates any kinetic Air Defence system. The 35mm guns, Skyguard FCU, Javelin, and ADATS have all been retired or placed in war stock.

....nothing?

Who do I need to convince to get us some S-300PMU or somesuch?
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2012, 08:51:06 AM »
Well Pete MacKay just ducked for cover. So, it'll be after the House of Commons' Xmas Break before your can argue the case on behalf of the Bird Gunners  ;)
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Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2012, 08:53:01 AM »
Nothing dedicated as an Air Defence weaponin the regular Army. I would not be surprised if JTF-2 retained some form of MANPADS, but that is pure speculation on my part. Some folks say the LAV-III / Coyote is an effective Anti-Helicopter weapon, I have my doubts. Maybe we'll see a stinger pack bolted on to a LAV-UP turret someday...

All the Reserve AD Arty Regts (18 AD, 58 BAA, and L&R Scots) have reverted back to Field Arty. 4 AD Regt remains, but its current role as Air Defence is limited to Air space control and did provide some gunners to man the UAV Section in Afghanistan (at least they did when I was there - not sure how long it continued for). I have heard talk that the Regt will form the nucleus of a Precision Guided Rocket Regt...but in this day of TAPV, Close Combat Vehicle, F-18 replacements, I don't foresee much funding left over for a new MLRS.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2012, 03:15:49 AM »
Since the Long Range Precision Rocket System never got past the LOI stage, presumably DND is still working out the exact requirement. But, as you say, finding the cash is the trickier bit.

The Danes tried selling off upgraded M270A1 MLRS a few years back but Ottawa wasn't interested -- maybe showing that the CF would prefer a wheeled platform? If Canada did go for something like HIMARS, couldn't we mount SAMs (ADATS or replacement) on the same MSVS SMP chassis?
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Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2012, 01:45:06 AM »
A few SPAAG from my whif folder...

Centurion twin forty:


Gepard type SPAAG with a new tracker radar mounted in the sloped turret, and a EO module at the base of the search radar:


Extended M-113 Hull with 4 x SAM and radar unit


Same hull, but with dual cannon




Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2012, 01:52:12 AM »
M-1 Abrams based gun/missile system with ADATS EO module




CV-9040 AA Turret on LAV-III 10x10



My own creation of an ADATS system mounted on a Leopard 1 hull + Gepard turret


And a very rare slide I literally pulled out of the garbage at the Royal Canadian Artillery School showing a Gepard in Canadian markings. Presumably this was mid-80's during the proposal phase of the Low Level Air Defence Project



And a Leopard 2 version of the ADATS on a boom mount. There is no way the laser would be able to keep the missile on target if the wind was blowing....and even if it was dead calm, I have my doubts the platform would be stable enough to keep missile lock.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 01:56:42 AM by Gingie »

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2013, 07:07:45 AM »
Here's an oldie:

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Offline finsrin

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2013, 07:19:49 AM »
They did a lot with that little bugger.  I like it  :)

Offline Weaver

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2013, 08:11:20 AM »
Italian SIDAM quad 25mm on M113:




Egyptian M113 with twin Zu-23 and quad SA-7:




Korean K-30 BIHO with twin 30mm on a modified AIFV chassis:

« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 09:16:03 AM by Weaver »
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #63 on: March 22, 2013, 11:56:15 PM »
Down in Yuma a a couple of weeks ago, saw this outside the Proving Grounds (which some of you may have seen too)





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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #64 on: March 23, 2013, 03:37:04 AM »
Italian SIDAM quad 25mm on M113:





I am prepared to kill to get a 1/35 conversion for the SIDAM... :icon_ninja:
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #65 on: March 23, 2013, 09:44:15 AM »
Italian SIDAM quad 25mm on M113:





I am prepared to kill to get a 1/35 conversion for the SIDAM... :icon_ninja:



Well $58.00 should be a doddle then:

http://www.rjproducts.com/Catalogs/Historica_Production/Historica_Production.html

(scroll down to item HP3008)

 :)


EDIT: sorry, not sure it's still available. R&J productions are still in business, but they don't seem to be currently listing this range on their home page: http://www.rjproducts.com/
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 09:52:11 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

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Offline Weaver

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #66 on: March 23, 2013, 10:04:10 AM »
It looks highly likely that the turret on this Chinese Type 95 SPAAA is based on the SIDAM:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_95_SPAAA
http://www.sinodefence.com/army/antiaircraft/pgz95.asp



"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #67 on: March 23, 2013, 12:28:07 PM »


Well $58.00 should be a doddle then:

http://www.rjproducts.com/Catalogs/Historica_Production/Historica_Production.html

(scroll down to item HP3008)

 :)


EDIT: sorry, not sure it's still available. R&J productions are still in business, but they don't seem to be currently listing this range on their home page: http://www.rjproducts.com/


Yep am aware of the Historica conversion.  It is up there with Hen's teeth for rarity. :icon_twisted:
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #68 on: March 23, 2013, 08:18:23 PM »
Down in Yuma a a couple of weeks ago, saw this outside the Proving Grounds (which some of you may have seen too)





These things were a case study in my Test and Evaluation masters course on how not to carry out systems engineering. 

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #69 on: March 23, 2013, 08:27:15 PM »
Heres an interesting SPAAG I found by chance

The T249 Vigilante 6 barrel 37mm gatling

http://prinzeugn.deviantart.com/art/Gatling-Tank-128291737

Also worth a read

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/ancient-medieval-early-modern-ages/45624-greatest-white-elephants-military-history-5.html

There was aparently a 35mm version offered up for the DIVADs role.

Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #70 on: March 23, 2013, 09:11:43 PM »

I am prepared to kill to get a 1/35 conversion for the SIDAM... :icon_ninja:

I scratched a SIDAM-25 a few years back. It was a bit complex, but very much do-able.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #71 on: March 24, 2013, 02:52:36 AM »

I am prepared to kill to get a 1/35 conversion for the SIDAM... :icon_ninja:

I scratched a SIDAM-25 a few years back. It was a bit complex, but very much do-able.

Do you have details/photos?
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #72 on: March 24, 2013, 05:04:35 AM »
A couple of rarities for you:

ZRPK "Donets" :



ZSU-37-2 "Yenisei ":

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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #73 on: March 24, 2013, 03:18:58 PM »
Here's an oldie:




Hey GTX... isn't it sad to think that this improvised WWII vintage SPG is still more effective and purposeful than anything we have in the Australian Army! Sad.... really sad!!!!

M.A.D

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #74 on: March 24, 2013, 03:40:17 PM »
It is?  The FN-MAG58 is actually superior to the Besa, M.A.D. and we have several thousand MAG58s in inventory.

Offline AGRA

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #75 on: March 24, 2013, 03:54:05 PM »
Hey GTX... isn't it sad to think that this improvised WWII vintage SPG is still more effective and purposeful than anything we have in the Australian Army! Sad.... really sad!!!!

RBS 70 is a very good short range air defence system. Far better anti aircraft coverage than a quad MG. With the new Bushmaster RBS 70 carrier version will also be better protected and more mobile than the Vickers light tank.

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #76 on: March 24, 2013, 05:50:38 PM »
A couple of rarities for you:

ZRPK "Donets" :



ZSU-37-2 "Yenisei ":




I would be interested to know how the 'Donets' is supposed to fire what looks like 9K31 Strela-1, aka SA-9 'Gaskin' missiles (or are they 9K35 Strela-10, aka SA-13 'Gopher'.  -either way, with the exception of the turret being perfectly in the forward or rear position? Any other angle would not allow the launch-boxes to be elevated ??

As for the ZSU-37-2 'Yenisei', this baby with its two 37mm (37 mm 500P Angara) cannon and based on the chassis of the experimental SU-100P self-propelled gun, would have been an even more powerful and hard hitting system than the it competed and lost against - the ZSU-23-4 Shilka SPAAG in 1962. I believe this decision was based on the fact that the ZSU-37-2 'Yenisei' would have been significantly more expensive!

Here is a multi-view drawing of the ZSU-37-2 'Yenisei', for anyone willing to have a crack at making a model of this SPAAG

M.A.D


Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #77 on: March 24, 2013, 06:02:24 PM »
Depends on where the elevation point is.  If its at the rear of the boxes, then it would work what ever the position of the turret.  If it has a two position arm, which elevates and then the boxes elevate, that would also work.   It might be just a  prototype anyway, it was never fielded and the reason why it was unsuccessful might well be because of what you've noticed...  ;D

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #78 on: March 24, 2013, 09:15:35 PM »
Hey GTX... isn't it sad to think that this improvised WWII vintage SPG is still more effective and purposeful than anything we have in the Australian Army! Sad.... really sad!!!!


RBS 70 is a very good short range air defence system. Far better anti aircraft coverage than a quad MG. With the new Bushmaster RBS 70 carrier version will also be better protected and more mobile than the Vickers light tank.


Sorry gent's, I know its 'what if'.
But I think you are missing my point. The ADF as a whole has a ridiculous - no comical air defence capability!
Rickshaw the MAG-58 is my primary weapon I use in what I do! It's a great gun, but it is an 'ultra' last line of defence weapon you would want to be using against helicopters/aircraft!!
As for the handful of RBS-70 MANPAD or Bushmaster deployed configuration. There are no where near enough to go around! You have to remember, that this handful of RBS-70 have to defend everything from airfields, ground formations and up until a few years ago, they were deployed upon our naval ships to supplement or give a degree of air-defence. Times have changed, and so has the capability within our region!

Unfortunately, we have taken the US/British approach (or neglect) with our air-defence capability. We put to much emphasis and reliance in our fighter/interceptor capability, whilst completely and utterly neglecting a layered air-defence system. I don't mean that the ADF needs the likes of S300/400 or Patriot batteries, nor Gepard or Tunguska-M1(although I am a big fan of the Pantsir S1 (SA-22 Greyhound) gun/missile system - for its capability and price!!) . But what we do need as a bare minimum is the likes of cheap and simple AAA platforms (25mm-35mm) (plus these make excellent ground-to-ground weapons as well),  Short-Medium range SAM's (not to be confused with MANPAD's) - say like RBS 23 BAMSE all-weather air defence missile system or NASAMS system, some GIRAFFE AMB cost-effective 3D surveillance radar system (although I am a fan of the Pantsir S1 (SA-22 Greyhound) - for its capability and price!!). Ideally I would also like to see simple, basic and affordable platforms adopted to support army formations - like that of the Turkish Pedestal-Mounted Air Defence Missile System (PMADS) or like the Dutch Fennek

, with at least a 25mm chain gun mounted with it (the .50 cal on the U.S. Avenger system is pathetic!)or what about LAV-AD Blazer(using a combination of Stinger MANPAD's and 25mm Gatling gun)

Now that's what I'm talking about!!

M.A.D

« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 09:17:31 PM by M.A.D »

Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #79 on: March 24, 2013, 09:50:41 PM »

Do you have details/photos?


Here's a mix of pics:






Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #80 on: March 25, 2013, 09:10:08 AM »
But I think you are missing my point. The ADF as a whole has a ridiculous - no comical air defence capability!


Does it need one?  We face no real enemy at the moment and we are assured if we do, the RAAF and our allies, will be capable of achieving air supremacy, so why waste valuable resources on AD systems?  As it is, when we did have AD systems, they were all low-level ones such as the RBS-70 and the Rapier and intended as last-ditch weapons.

Quote
Rickshaw the MAG-58 is my primary weapon I use in what I do! It's a great gun, but it is an 'ultra' last line of defence weapon you would want to be using against helicopters/aircraft!!


Yet you held up a weapon system which was intended to be exactly that, as what we should be aspiring to.  Such a vehicle equipped with four MAG58s instead of four Besas would be more capable than the one with four Besas.   It would be more reliable.

Quote
As for the handful of RBS-70 MANPAD or Bushmaster deployed configuration. There are no where near enough to go around! You have to remember, that this handful of RBS-70 have to defend everything from airfields, ground formations and up until a few years ago, they were deployed upon our naval ships to supplement or give a degree of air-defence. Times have changed, and so has the capability within our region!


The capability has changed and has now started to catch up with our clear superiority in aircraft.  We have supplemented that with AEW "Wedgetail".   Finances for the army and perhaps more importantly manpower has worsened and of course our over-whelming concentration of fighting counter-insurgency warfare has meant that the army had a clear choice and something had to go.  As insurgents don't have aircraft, you can guess which one.

Quote
Unfortunately, we have taken the US/British approach (or neglect) with our air-defence capability. We put to much emphasis and reliance in our fighter/interceptor capability, whilst completely and utterly neglecting a layered air-defence system. I don't mean that the ADF needs the likes of S300/400 or Patriot batteries, nor Gepard or Tunguska-M1(although I am a big fan of the Pantsir S1 (SA-22 Greyhound) gun/missile system - for its capability and price!!) . But what we do need as a bare minimum is the likes of cheap and simple AAA platforms (25mm-35mm) (plus these make excellent ground-to-ground weapons as well),  Short-Medium range SAM's (not to be confused with MANPAD's) - say like RBS 23 BAMSE all-weather air defence missile system or NASAMS system, some GIRAFFE AMB cost-effective 3D surveillance radar system (although I am a fan of the Pantsir S1 (SA-22 Greyhound) - for its capability and price!!). Ideally I would also like to see simple, basic and affordable platforms adopted to support army formations - like that of the Turkish Pedestal-Mounted Air Defence Missile System (PMADS) or like the Dutch Fennek


All well and ideal.  Unfortunately in real life these things need to be justified.   It is a bit hard to build an AD system against a non-existent threat (Taliban or civil unrest in the Solomons or East Timor or other small island states in our region).   Treasure cuts the cloth for the defence forces and the Army has been feeling the pinch, as it has a lower priority than Navy or Air Force.   High employment in the civilian economy means that Army also has to compete for manpower with mines which offer twice-treble the wages it can.  So, it has and is finding it hard to find recruits to man assets which are deemed "low priority".   Once we finally withdraw from Afghanistan and now the Solomons Army will, like after Vietnam be faced with rebuilding itself as a conventional force so we may see a return of AD as a priority.   As you note, we are unlikely to ever afford or need a multi-layered AD system, so I'd expect to see a return of MANPADS and low-level systems.   I doubt they will be self-propelled though, even with the movement to a more mechanised force.

Gun based systems will  always suffer from the problem that the attacking elements will have missiles that outrange them.  It was what eventually killed the US DIVADS Sgt.York systems and is why we are seeing increasing reliance on SAM systems even on gun armed AD vehicles.    It is easier to increase the range on a SAM than it is a gun.

Quote
http://youtu.be/_jpQDpuykRE
, with at least a 25mm chain gun mounted with it (the .50 cal on the U.S. Avenger system is pathetic!)or what about LAV-AD Blazer(using a combination of Stinger MANPAD's and 25mm Gatling gun)
http://youtu.be/XooFmPUt6aA
Now that's what I'm talking about!!

M.A.D


Always be wary of manufacturers claims about their systems.  ;D

Offline apophenia

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2013, 09:54:39 AM »
Gingie: Gorgeous work on that scratched SIDAM turret!  :)
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #82 on: March 31, 2013, 05:20:24 AM »
Gingie: Gorgeous work on that scratched SIDAM turret!  :)

Agreed.
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #83 on: March 31, 2013, 05:26:23 AM »
Rooftop mounted AA batteries on the high rises in Seoul? 
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2013, 02:09:27 AM »
Here's one I've not seen before: AMX-VCI with a Quad .50 cal on the roof. Incorrectly captioned on Wikipedia as an AMX-13 DCA..... ???

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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2013, 02:28:42 AM »
Those Maxson turrets pop up everywhere still.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2013, 06:04:59 AM »
Those Maxson turrets pop up everywhere still.

They must be fun to shoot.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2013, 09:24:22 AM »
There was a brief discussion on Missing-Lynx about that Antoine Misner photo of an AMX VCI with Maxson mount. Apparently, it was a one-off prototype.

According to JEDsite, there was also a Char 48FCM ~ aka Char 12T FCM, DCA de Quatre Canons de 20mm - 4x20mm cannon in FL-4 turret.
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #88 on: April 19, 2013, 11:35:56 AM »
According to The Big Boy's and Girl's Book of World Knowledge there was also a prototype AMX-13 with a Bofors 40mm in an "angular turret".   Anybody got any pictures?

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« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 09:25:54 AM by Weaver »
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2013, 04:21:55 AM »
Looks a little like the Otomatic:



or more so, the Crusader with 40mm:

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #91 on: April 20, 2013, 05:27:58 AM »
Interesting article on the Crusader AA - click the pic to go to the article:

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #92 on: April 20, 2013, 06:10:10 AM »
Random idea:  Churchill Tank with Quad .50 cal
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #93 on: April 28, 2013, 11:27:01 AM »
Marcus Schoebel has shared some images of his Geschuetzwagen VI 3,7cm Quad Anti Aaircraft Turret SP FlaK "what if" super heavy tank with 3,7cm quad anti aircraft turret at the Track-Link forums which sadly do not allow hot-linking images :( so you need to click on the html to view his model. 

The model is based on the Trumpeter 1:35th scale Geschützwagen VI 17cm Grille 2 with the turret sourced from German-Master-Kit.


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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #94 on: April 28, 2013, 03:05:51 PM »
Ouch!  Wouldn't want to be caught by that.   :o

Have you invited him?

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #95 on: April 28, 2013, 05:44:07 PM »
Wicked!
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Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #96 on: April 28, 2013, 11:45:11 PM »
that is awesome!

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #97 on: April 29, 2013, 02:04:46 AM »
 That is pretty intense...anybody got a recommendation about the red color on the hull?

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #98 on: December 23, 2013, 04:24:00 AM »
Random idea:  Vehicle mounted RIM-7.  Inother words, something like this:

 

on something like this:

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Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #99 on: December 23, 2013, 04:36:14 AM »
Or like this?


Offline Diavel

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #100 on: December 23, 2013, 04:37:22 AM »
I built something similar to this using a cut down M113, and a quad Sparrow missile launcher, loosely based on a sea sparrow missile system. The vehicle belonged to my U.S.M.C. task force. I am not sure if I have any decent pics of the vehicle as the ones I took are not brilliant.
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #101 on: December 23, 2013, 04:41:28 AM »
Something interesting:  A Polish 2K12 "Kub" (SA-6 "Gainful") with RIM-162 ESSM:


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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #102 on: December 23, 2013, 04:42:50 AM »
Or like this?




Yeah - the SLAMRAAM was what inspired my thinking - I wanted to do something earlier though (say '60s/'70s era) hence the RIM-7
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Offline Diavel

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #103 on: December 23, 2013, 05:27:36 AM »
Here is my M113 SPAAG, as I said pics are not good, and I can't take any more.



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Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #104 on: December 23, 2013, 11:09:21 AM »


Yeah - the SLAMRAAM was what inspired my thinking - I wanted to do something earlier though (say '60s/'70s era) hence the RIM-7


Ah, seen, so more along the lines of the M-727


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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #105 on: December 23, 2013, 11:18:48 AM »
Yeah, but without HAWK missiles...
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Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #106 on: January 15, 2014, 07:13:08 AM »
Thinking about something like this for a Dana, but perhaps with the CIWS RAM missiles instead of the gatling.

Maybe I should get a HEMTT as well.. hmm....



Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #107 on: January 15, 2014, 07:15:10 AM »

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #108 on: January 15, 2014, 09:14:58 AM »
Why do you need a tracking radar with an IR guided missile?  It's not as if you control the missile after it's launched.

Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #109 on: January 15, 2014, 09:25:20 AM »
maybe to slew the missile launcher to the correct bearing/elevation?

I think its likely because the system can also be used with the gatling gun version, which would require both search & track systems.

Offline buzzbomb

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #110 on: January 15, 2014, 10:19:17 AM »
Why am I seeing a scene of  this HEMTT, a low bridge and two blokes looking very sheepish.

I know there is a myriad of safetys around transporting this sort of thing.. but seriously, it was the first thing that popped into my head.

Seeing this and thinking about your DANA call certainly has a load of possibilities, even around MLRS type loads

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #111 on: January 15, 2014, 10:55:21 AM »
maybe to slew the missile launcher to the correct bearing/elevation?

I think its likely because the system can also be used with the gatling gun version, which would require both search & track systems.

I realise it's an adaptation from the Dalek however it seems a superfluous piece of equipment to me.  You have the search radar to alert you as to the direction/altitude of approaching aircraft and all you need do is slew the launcher to the correct angle to allow you to launch the missile which acquires and guides itself.  I'm aware that they use the acquisition radar on the gatling gun system to track the rounds and adjust the aim during the engagement but I really can't see much use for it with an IR missile.

I agree with Buzzbomb, height was my first consideration when I saw that truck mounted system.  Goalkeeper might be a better idea than Phalanx.  Bigger gun, lower mounting and radars.

Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #112 on: January 15, 2014, 11:35:56 AM »
caveat - Sea-based AD is not my background.

Tracking radars are not just there to put a bullet on a target. They also help build a common air threat picture. I would guess that the info from these radar systems is is combined and fed into the ship's fire control section, allowing the air defence section to prioritize engagements or query IFF.

The in-service C-RAM in Afghanistan is mounted on a low-bed trailer, reducing height. I suspect the HEMMT version has a road march mode that would see the radars stowed. The system is designed for point defence, not mobile defence or convoy escort. 

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #113 on: January 15, 2014, 12:07:32 PM »
I think we are using different terminology here to describe the same thing.

I know on the Phalanx there are two radars - a Search radar which actively searches 360 degrees and detects incoming threats to the ship.  There is also a tracking radar which the search radar hands the engagement over to if a target is detected and it fulfils the parameters for an engagement.  That tracking radar tracks both the target and the rounds fired from the gun.  The tracking system adjusts the fall of shot and makes the two converge by correcting the aim of the gun mount.  Its why the Phalanx system has such a strange drum shaped radar housing on top.  The dome part contains the search radar and the stem the tracking one.   It's also why the entire radar elevates with the gun mount, to keep the tracking radar pointing towards the incoming target, in line with the gun.

Obviously an IR missile doesn't need that facility, which is why I wonder the tracking radar is still there.

What you're describing would be, I thought, part of the function of the Search radar, not the Tracking radar.

BTW, if anybody is interested, there is a 1/35 Phalanx presently being auctioned on Evil Bay - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/KHS-VIKING-MODELS-1-35-PHALANX-CLOSE-IN-WEAPON-SYSTEM-/141161683570?pt=Model_Kit_US&hash=item20dde45a72 - you'll have to be quick though, as it ends tomorrow!  ;D 
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 03:57:29 PM by Rickshaw »

Offline Weaver

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #114 on: January 15, 2014, 08:45:02 PM »
Perhaps in SeaRAM the tracking radar tracks the target and the missile, decides whether the missile's going to hit or not, and thereby decides whether to launch another one?
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #115 on: January 15, 2014, 08:50:44 PM »
Why not just go for the standard 21 round RAM launcher and mount the radar elsewhere on the vehicle, maybe even mast mount it.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #116 on: January 16, 2014, 02:18:26 AM »
SeaRAM combines the Phalanx CIWS Block 1B search-and-track radar and Elector Optic sensors with the RAM missile system - the system does not provide missile guidance.
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #117 on: January 16, 2014, 02:41:33 AM »

BTW, if anybody is interested, there is a 1/35 Phalanx presently being auctioned on Evil Bay - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/KHS-VIKING-MODELS-1-35-PHALANX-CLOSE-IN-WEAPON-SYSTEM-/141161683570?pt=Model_Kit_US&hash=item20dde45a72 - you'll have to be quick though, as it ends tomorrow!  ;D


Nah…already have one. ;)  Mine is planned for fitment to a M1 Abrams hull…to give a "Dalek" SPAAG ;D
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #118 on: January 16, 2014, 02:42:11 AM »

Maybe I should get a HEMTT as well.. hmm....


Does anyone do one in 1/48?
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Offline Silver Fox

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #119 on: January 16, 2014, 05:54:57 AM »
Wouldn't the tracking radar have the final say on whether the target was within actual engagement profile? Search radar is a rather crude tool for that role.

Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #120 on: January 16, 2014, 06:58:19 AM »
Perhaps in SeaRAM the tracking radar tracks the target and the missile, decides whether the missile's going to hit or not, and thereby decides whether to launch another one?

Yep. Tracking radar determines whether the target is still a threat or if the missile destroyed it.

And according the wiki "The original weapon cannot employ its own sensors prior to firing so it must be integrated with a ship's combat system, which directs the launcher at targets".


Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #121 on: January 16, 2014, 02:18:48 PM »
Perhaps in SeaRAM the tracking radar tracks the target and the missile, decides whether the missile's going to hit or not, and thereby decides whether to launch another one?


Possible but I wouldn't have thought there were have been sufficient time for that.

I note that there are several 1/72 scale Phalanx available in resin:

http://www.shapeways.com/model/1125118/phalanx-kit-x-1-1-72.html?li=shop-results&materialId=61
http://www.fleetscale.com/store/gb/royal-navy-type-45-destroyer/105-1-72nd-phalanx-gun-weapon-system.html

There is also one available in 1/48:

http://www.shapeways.com/model/1559287/phalanx-kit-1-48-x-1.html?li=shop-results&materialId=6

3d Boats also does a SeaRAM system but only in 1/96 scale.  As they are 3d printed, it shouldn't be hard for them to do one in 1/72 or 1/35.




Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #122 on: January 31, 2014, 08:44:27 AM »

Offline buzzbomb

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #123 on: January 31, 2014, 09:07:36 AM »
Prototype Integration Facility... Military for Kitbasher U ??

Very practical that setup, probably something we will see  more of using existing Air to Air missiles in this sort of role

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #124 on: January 31, 2014, 09:09:32 AM »
Anybody know where I can get some 1/32 AIM-120s?

I think the bottle of water though, rather spoils the picture.  ;D ;D

Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #125 on: January 31, 2014, 12:18:20 PM »
I've got some resin ones kicking around. I wanna say Cutting Edge, but would have to dig em out to be sure.

Offline buzzbomb

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #126 on: January 31, 2014, 12:45:39 PM »
Anybody know where I can get some 1/32 AIM-120s?

Spotlight ??? Knitting Needles Perhaps... worked well for Claymore

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #127 on: January 31, 2014, 01:00:44 PM »
Anybody know where I can get some 1/32 AIM-120s?


bnamodelworld.com in Australia has what you need: Flightpath - 1:32nd scale AIM-120 AMRAAM Missile Set
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #128 on: January 31, 2014, 04:44:42 PM »
Thank'ee one and all for your kind suggestions.  Trumpeter does the truck, doesn't it?

Offline Weaver

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #129 on: January 31, 2014, 08:50:16 PM »
Anybody know where I can get some 1/32 AIM-120s?

I think the bottle of water though, rather spoils the picture.  ;D ;D


No problem if you want to model it though: Meng do them!  :) ;) ;D

http://www.meng-model.com/index2_new.php?id=207



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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #130 on: February 01, 2014, 04:16:34 AM »
Thank'ee one and all for your kind suggestions.  Trumpeter does the truck, doesn't it?


Yes Trumpeter does make the truck.  Listed as M1083 FMTV (Armor Cab) kit number 1008.

If you are ready to take the plunge it is available at Amazon.com  :icon_ninja:

Or you can check bnamodelworld.com and see if they have it in-country and closer to you. 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 04:20:05 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #131 on: February 01, 2014, 07:22:52 AM »
I'm actually imagining that launcher on the back of a patrol or PT boat for some reason, or multiples positioned around a large amphib or modernised older carrier.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #132 on: February 01, 2014, 10:29:16 AM »
I'm actually imagining that launcher on the back of a patrol or PT boat for some reason, or multiples positioned around a large amphib or modernised older carrier.

I wonder if any research has been done on upgrading Sea Sparrow to use AMRAAM?

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #133 on: February 01, 2014, 11:50:05 AM »
Thank'ee one and all for your kind suggestions.  Trumpeter does the truck, doesn't it?


Yes Trumpeter does make the truck.  Listed as M1083 FMTV (Armor Cab) kit number 1008.

If you are ready to take the plunge it is available at Amazon.com  :icon_ninja:

Or you can check bnamodelworld.com and see if they have it in-country and closer to you.


Thanks.  I'm actually thinking more towards the MAN 6x6 truck.  I know Revel does one and I know where I can get it very cheaply.   Mmmm, perhaps RAA, as the MAN is being adopted as part of Land 121 Phase 3B.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #134 on: February 01, 2014, 12:33:19 PM »
I'm actually imagining that launcher on the back of a patrol or PT boat for some reason, or multiples positioned around a large amphib or modernised older carrier.

I wonder if any research has been done on upgrading Sea Sparrow to use AMRAAM?
Or mating the AMRAAM seeker with the RIM-162 ESSM?

Offline Weaver

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #135 on: February 01, 2014, 06:04:25 PM »
I think I'm right in saying that BAe did a study into using the Active Skyflash with Sea Sparrow, and I'd be amazed if Alenia didn't do the same with their Active Aspide project, given that they actually manufacture Aspide/Albatross as a Sea Sparrow substitute.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #136 on: February 01, 2014, 08:54:00 PM »
I'm actually imagining that launcher on the back of a patrol or PT boat for some reason, or multiples positioned around a large amphib or modernised older carrier.

I wonder if any research has been done on upgrading Sea Sparrow to use AMRAAM?
Or mating the AMRAAM seeker with the RIM-162 ESSM?
I believe its on the cards but SM-6 uses AMRAAM tech

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #137 on: February 02, 2014, 04:23:28 AM »
One I wasn't aware of until just recently:  ZSU-23-4M4
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #138 on: February 02, 2014, 04:26:25 AM »
Don't you just love the colour scheme on these?
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #139 on: February 02, 2014, 09:09:28 AM »
I love the little wheels on the front of the SA-2 system.   ;D

The colours are a bit garish, aren't they?  Cuban?

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #140 on: February 03, 2014, 08:25:02 AM »
yeah, Cuban. The brick-red colour used to be black, and when viewed with the Green and OD, reminded me of the Canadian 3-tone from the 60's-80's.

Are those wheels for holding comms wire? Or are they a driver aid to let him know he's about to prang the nose cone when approaching a slope?

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #141 on: February 03, 2014, 09:09:24 AM »
yeah, Cuban. The brick-red colour used to be black, and when viewed with the Green and OD, reminded me of the Canadian 3-tone from the 60's-80's.

Are those wheels for holding comms wire? Or are they a driver aid to let him know he's about to prang the nose cone when approaching a slope?

I suspect the latter.   It looks though, like rather an unwieldy vehicle.  Very high and the driver more than likely would need all the help he could get.  I can't see it being much use in mobile operations.  Looks more likely it's merely a way to allow a mobile defence say of airfields.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #142 on: April 05, 2014, 03:04:19 PM »
Love the Oto Melara 60mm HVMS turret. How would the 60mm do as part of a SPAAG.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #143 on: April 05, 2014, 03:34:46 PM »
Love the Oto Melara 60mm HVMS turret. How would the 60mm do as part of a SPAAG.
Too low a ROF.  While capable of automatic fire, the system as it exists is primarily to be used in a semi-automatic mode beccause of the low capacity of the weapon's magazines.   You'd need, apart from a completely new mounting and turret, a very different loading system.  The IMI 60mm fires IIRC from two three round "magazines".   I wouldn't bother, the OTOMATIC 76mm does a better job and can use guided rounds as well.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #144 on: April 05, 2014, 03:47:05 PM »
Love the Oto Melara 60mm HVMS turret. How would the 60mm do as part of a SPAAG.
Too low a ROF.  While capable of automatic fire, the system as it exists is primarily to be used in a semi-automatic mode beccause of the low capacity of the weapon's magazines.   You'd need, apart from a completely new mounting and turret, a very different loading system.  The IMI 60mm fires IIRC from two three round "magazines".   I wouldn't bother, the OTOMATIC 76mm does a better job and can use guided rounds as well.

And the South Africans turned the 75mm into into a perfectly adequate AFV gun as well.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #145 on: April 06, 2014, 03:37:19 AM »
I wouldn't bother, the OTOMATIC 76mm does a better job and can use guided rounds as well.


Except the Otomatic never entered production or saw service...and even in its most recent (2010) iteration as the Dracp (see below) has not found any buyers:

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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #146 on: April 06, 2014, 09:10:18 AM »
Using that argument, neither has a AA 60mm HMVS system, Greg.  The OTOMATIC has at least reached hardware.  IMO it shows what is needed if you really, seriously want to talk about SPAG systems nowadays.  IMHO, the days of multiple 20+mm systems are long past.  To reach out and destroy an attacking helicopter you need serious metal.  Which is of course why SAMs are so much more attractive.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #147 on: April 06, 2014, 01:12:36 PM »
Using that argument, neither has a AA 60mm HMVS system, Greg.

I didn't say it was.  What I was responding to was the comment that "the OTOMATIC 76mm does a better job and can use guided rounds as well."

This statement would seem to imply that the Otomatc is in service which it is not.  In fact, it only was produced as a single prototype IIRC and despite being an interesting concept pushed strongly for many years has failed to find a single buyer and thus saying that it does a better job and can do something is questionable.  Hence my comment.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 01:14:11 PM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #148 on: April 06, 2014, 02:57:42 PM »
It wasn't my intention to convey such an idea, Greg.   Rather that the system does exist and is not vapourware,  nothing more.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #149 on: April 06, 2014, 08:38:05 PM »
I'd like to hear more about 76mm guided rounds. That's a new one for me.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #151 on: April 07, 2014, 02:48:00 AM »
I like the Luftvärnskanonvagn (lvkv) 9040 variant of the CV90:



LvKv 90 Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft Gun | Military-Today.com


It uses the Bofors 40mm 3GP ammunition:

Bofors 40mm 3GP ammunition demonstration


It would be interesting to see a variant also equipped with a integral SAM - say something like either the RBS70 or better yet, the RBS 23 BAMSE:

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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #152 on: April 07, 2014, 02:57:41 AM »
I'd like to hear more about 76mm guided rounds. That's a new one for me.


It talks about the DART and Vulcano rounds here:

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_3-62_mk75.htm

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNIT_5-54_LW.htm
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Offline Rafael

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #153 on: April 07, 2014, 04:24:06 AM »
I don't take life seriously. I'm not getting out of it alive anyways.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #154 on: April 07, 2014, 01:16:58 PM »
Actually what would be interesting is if BAE did an SPAAG version of the CV90/35 using AHEAD ammunition for the Netherlands and Denmark. (and Australia of course in my highly parochial little mind that automatically puts all cool kit into Australian service :P)

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #155 on: April 12, 2014, 06:05:15 AM »
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #156 on: April 15, 2014, 08:42:20 AM »
Hmm, turns out the HEMTT mit Phalanx is an A3, diesel-electric. Going to be a bit more mods than I thought for the Italeri kit.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #157 on: April 20, 2014, 12:51:45 AM »
IDF twin 35, pic from AMPS via Jim Carswell, builder unknown.


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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #158 on: April 20, 2014, 03:18:10 AM »
Nice.
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #159 on: February 14, 2015, 06:06:53 AM »
Interesting…

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #160 on: May 17, 2015, 06:29:39 AM »
Random thought:  M167 Vulcan Air Defense System (VADS) (see below) used in purely ground role (i.e. used against enemy ground forces not aircraft):

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #161 on: May 24, 2015, 06:41:03 AM »
Random idea:  Tank towing a trailer mounted M51 for semi-self contained air defence:

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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #162 on: May 24, 2015, 09:15:47 AM »
Tanks and trailers don't play well together, Greg.   Tank drivers can't really see very well behind them and when reversing out of danger tend to forget about the trailer and drive over it.   :o
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 09:28:02 AM by Rickshaw »

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #163 on: May 24, 2015, 09:17:35 AM »
Bah!  Reality suds!
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #164 on: May 24, 2015, 09:28:53 AM »
Bah!  Reality suds!

Just put into the back of a Perentie, Greg...  ;)

Offline dy031101

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #165 on: May 24, 2015, 01:17:32 PM »
Trailer-mounted ADATS towed behind a requsitioned RV or camper van  ;D
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #166 on: May 24, 2015, 11:03:13 PM »
How about a BV206 / BVS10 style articulated trailer behind the tank / AFV?  It could actually improve the mobility of the vehicle its attached to as well as being capable of carrying pretty much any payload required including additional fuel for the tanks.  They could even be designed with quick connect / disconnect couplings so the tanks can drop them off before or on contact to provide supporting fires.  Apart from SPAAG and SAM you could also have automatic heavy mortar, pioneer, engineer, logistics, even a vegie bin (APC module) for assault troops to provide close support for the tanks.  These trailers could also be fitted with their own propulsion to permit them to catch up to the tanks post contact.  They could the armour equivalent to the infantryman's pack / Bergen.

Totally impractical but fun to model.

Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #167 on: June 08, 2015, 10:48:39 PM »
Kevin Williams provides an update on his fantastic Canadian Tracked Roland:



More photos & description here:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/169232/message/1433724191/Canadian+Leopard+Roland+II+SHORAD

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #168 on: September 06, 2015, 06:32:23 AM »
ZSU-23-4MP BIALA:

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #169 on: September 06, 2015, 06:38:24 AM »
There's part of a T-72 under there...somewhere:


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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #170 on: September 07, 2015, 03:07:15 AM »
nice find! That's a new one too me

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #171 on: September 09, 2015, 02:48:29 AM »
Its actually a Polish PZA Loara.  It is actually based upon the hull of a PT-91 Twardy which is in itself a Polish development of the T-72M1.  Armament is two Oerlikon KDA 35 mm automatic cannons.  Originally there was also supposed to be a missile-armed version of the vehicle - the PZR Loara (which the below photo may or may not be of).

« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 03:00:07 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #172 on: September 13, 2015, 04:00:42 AM »
One that I am surprised one of the Chinese companies haven't realised a kit of yet - the PGZ-07:

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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #173 on: September 13, 2015, 01:27:35 PM »
You do realise that Trumpeter/Bronco/Hobby Boss/etc. will now release one next week?   :o

Offline arkon

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #174 on: September 14, 2015, 12:07:55 PM »
Only after someone from here scratch builds one
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #175 on: September 15, 2015, 02:30:42 AM »
Only after someone from here scratch builds one

Using resin parts that break numerous times...
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #176 on: November 08, 2015, 07:44:57 AM »
One I was not previously aware of:  Sherman T52, 40mm Bofors and 2 .50s:

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #177 on: November 08, 2015, 10:21:58 PM »
That's an interesting find Greg, it looks like all the guns are mounted in a barrel, did the Bofor have a belt feed too ?

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #178 on: November 09, 2015, 03:08:49 AM »
That's an interesting find Greg, it looks like all the guns are mounted in a barrel, did the Bofor have a belt feed too ?

Not sure - let me do a little more research.  Looking at the photos it almost looks like the US equivalent to the Kugelblitz.
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #179 on: November 11, 2015, 03:34:21 PM »
Further to above, the T52 turret above dod not have a belt fed 40mm.  In fact, it looks to have been a failure with limited ammo plus an extremely high workload for the two crew proposed for the turret.
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #180 on: November 17, 2015, 10:06:33 AM »
I'd seen the center picture before, but the top and bottom close-ups are new to me - very cool. The book British and American Tanks of WW 2 ( Chamberlain and Ellis ) mentions the turret tracking speed being too slow for low-flying aircraft.

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #181 on: October 17, 2016, 07:04:05 AM »
 Ok, I just stumbled across this interesting design study of the Swedish BA 30 LV SPAAG based of the Pbv 302 APC. From what I've read it was in competition with the VEAK 40 design.
What I do find interesting (well to me anyway!) is its potential application to the ubiquitous M113 APC series!
Would loved to have seen something like this in ADF service!!

M.A.D

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #182 on: October 17, 2016, 10:59:21 AM »
Interesting.  Any more info on it?

It looks very similar to the Gerard design with twin 35mm cannon or does the "30" in the designation refer to 30mm cannon?
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #183 on: October 18, 2016, 07:55:11 AM »
It looks very similar to the Gerard design with twin 35mm cannon or does the "30" in the designation refer to 30mm cannon?


Yep. Twin Hispano-Suiza HS 30s. The model shown has the alternative turret. That Pbv 302-derived SPAAG was first shown with a French A14D turret.

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/284927-european-tank-discussion/page__st__1320
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Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #184 on: October 19, 2016, 03:15:35 AM »
Looks like the offspring between a Gepard and a SIDAM.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #185 on: October 21, 2016, 04:30:57 PM »










Former Republic of Yugoslavia's AS-83 SPAA with 2 x 40mm Bofors guns.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 04:37:55 PM by Rickshaw »

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #186 on: October 22, 2016, 04:03:54 AM »
Err...most of those pictures are of the SPAT 30/2 with twin 30mm cannon.  This is a development of the Yougoslav BVP M80 IFV.

The bottom one with what appears to be twin 40mm Bofors does look interesting though.  Any more details on it?
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #187 on: October 22, 2016, 05:27:33 AM »
The bottom one with what appears to be twin 40mm Bofors does look interesting though.  Any more details on it?

SPAT 40/2 project based on a M-80A or M-84A hull with twin L/70 Bofors guns (AS-83?) with BOFI (Bofors Optonic Fire-control Instument aka System 75), and radar derived from the Yugoslav's licensed M85 Žirafa (Ericsson Giraffe 75).  So, basically a local SPAAG akin to the carriage-based L/70 BOFI-R.
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #189 on: October 22, 2016, 10:01:12 AM »
Or the Marder Rapier

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #190 on: October 23, 2016, 04:29:54 PM »
Or the Marder Rapier

Now isn't that a smart looking idea - having the Rapier launcher semi hidden! Not would it more less cumbersome for transportation, it goes along way to announcing its principle mission!
I can't help think about the priority target that air defence assets/platforms incur on the modern battlefield!

Thank for sharing Volkodave

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #191 on: October 24, 2016, 02:02:51 AM »

I can't help think about the priority target that air defence assets/platforms incur on the modern battlefield!


Though one might think that on a battlefield, the system should be up and looking for targets...

I suspect the retraction would  be simply used when transporting.
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #192 on: October 28, 2016, 12:26:02 PM »


No idea what the SAMs are.




le Clerc with Crotale launcher turret.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 11:50:13 AM by Rickshaw »

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #193 on: October 29, 2016, 04:41:49 AM »










Former Republic of Yugoslavia's AS-83 SPAA with 2 x 40mm Bofors guns.


You've got to hand it to the Yugoslavians, they were/are purity good with deriving simple and practical solutions to their needs and requirements!!
Also of note, is the appreciation the Yugoslavians had with the ground fire application of SPAAG's!

M.A.D

« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 04:47:21 AM by M.A.D »

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #194 on: October 29, 2016, 04:47:00 AM »
The image shows a photoshopped (I believe) representation of the PZR Loara - a missile-armed version of the PZA Loara which is itself a SPAAG variant of the Polish PT-91 MBT which is itself a variant of the T-72.

PZA Loara:



Here is another representation:



Although it never reached production, I understand the following missiles were looked at:  Swedish RBS-23 missiles Bamse, Barak, Israeli, French or South African Crotale NG SAVH-3.
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #195 on: March 11, 2017, 04:03:37 AM »
Something quite build able:  Leclerc 'Flakpanzer' SPAAG: Early 1990s development of the Leclerc fitted with a turret derived from that of the German Flakpanzer Gepard. Armed with twin 35 mm Oerlikon KDA autocannons and two twin pack Mistral SAM launchers (total of four ready missiles). Despite successful testing of the prototype by the French Army, was not adopted for service due to post-Cold War defence cutbacks.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #196 on: March 11, 2017, 10:16:55 PM »
Never seen that one before but it does demonstrate that, yet again, all the cool Russian stuff over the last few years that the west has no answer to, western nations actually had cooler stuff earlier but didn't put it in production because of the peace dividend, i.e. more important things to spend their money on,

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #197 on: March 11, 2017, 10:49:49 PM »
As was shown on more than a few occasions during the Gulf Wars, when the opposition runs out of missiles (or they were taken out), you just fill the sky with a frecking lot of sizzling metal. You're going to hit something eventually. Germans did the same during WWII, just swamp the area around an important site with mobile AAA and just fire the rounds into the air

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #198 on: March 11, 2017, 10:55:00 PM »


North Korean M1992



Norinco 8x8 SPAAG





8x8 30mm wheeled AAG, 2012 ZhuHai Air Show



Mowag Shark Wildcat 8x8 SPAAG.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 11:09:27 PM by Rickshaw »

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #199 on: March 26, 2017, 04:14:40 AM »
I would love to see a 1/35 kit of the Mowag Shark Wildcat
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #200 on: March 26, 2017, 04:17:00 AM »
Random idea - not really a SAM either:  what about an airborne version (i.e. carried by an aircraft) of the 9M8 missile from the SA-4:



Witha 150kg warhead and Mach 4 speed (possibly even greater if air launched), this could be a useful anti ship missile provided appropriate guidance was offered.
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #201 on: April 24, 2017, 03:13:25 AM »
New Russian system:

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #202 on: June 20, 2017, 02:50:10 AM »
Romanian (?) system:

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #203 on: June 23, 2017, 08:56:31 PM »

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #204 on: June 24, 2017, 02:57:17 AM »
Interesting
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #205 on: June 24, 2017, 03:41:56 AM »
The latest Canadian Defence Policy included a statement on re-introducing a Ground Based Air Defence capability into the military. No idea what it could be though...Stinger MANPADS with teams in TAPV, or something more SHORAD-like, perhaps based on a LAV-6?

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #206 on: June 24, 2017, 01:06:45 PM »
The Australian Army recently announced that they were replacing their 1970s Rapiers with ground based AIM-120s, based on a light wheeled chassis (I assume a Mercedes Benz Wolf but wouldn't be surprised if they just adopted the Hummer, Norwegian variant).    That would make an ideal SAM system for the Canadians to also adopt.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #207 on: June 25, 2017, 03:46:03 AM »
The Australian Army recently announced that they were replacing their 1970s Rapiers with ground based AIM-120s, based on a light wheeled chassis (I assume a Mercedes Benz Wolf but wouldn't be surprised if they just adopted the Hummer, Norwegian variant).    That would make an ideal SAM system for the Canadians to also adopt.


I understand the plan is to use the HUMVEE though it is still in negotiation so AIC aspects may come into play to change things.  I have also heard the Hawkei PMV mentioned as a potential vehicle.  There is also talk of pairing it with the truck mounted version of CEA Technologies radar system so maybe a common truck will be used - say the Rheinmetall MAN medium trucks.

BTW , the system can operate both AIM-120 and AIM-9X missiles:

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #208 on: June 25, 2017, 04:09:13 AM »
There is also talk of pairing it with the truck mounted version of CEA Technologies radar system so maybe a common truck will be used


Quoting myself - maybe something such as this (noting that the missile system in this is actually the IRIS-T SL):




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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #209 on: September 29, 2017, 07:34:28 AM »
Interesting:


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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #210 on: September 29, 2017, 09:27:00 AM »
Looks like another chop-shop special; SA-6 "Gainful" ( 2K12 "Kub") launcher, which appears to have been taken from the M-113 to the left, fitted onto an Iveco Puma 6x6.
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #211 on: September 29, 2017, 12:38:28 PM »
Looks like it should fall over, got to be a lot of lead shot in n the base to keep it from tipping over ;D
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #212 on: September 29, 2017, 02:45:48 PM »
Looks like it should fall over, got to be a lot of lead shot in n the base to keep it from tipping over ;D
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #213 on: September 29, 2017, 08:51:56 PM »
KMW did propose a version of the PzH for the CRAM so why not a SPAAG using Volcano guided rounds with radar and optronics on the turret roof.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #214 on: December 29, 2017, 03:45:28 AM »
One I was not aware of until recently:  Serbian PASARS system with Bofors 40 mm gun and two  RLN-1C SAMs derived from Russian R-13M which is itself derived from the AIM-9.  As such, we are almost getting to a Eastern Bloc Chaparral (if you stretch your thinking...):



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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #215 on: January 29, 2018, 03:21:35 AM »
At least the Serb's had the common sense to combine both gun and missile into one platform!!

I like PASARS system seeming simplicity - and undoubtedly cost effectiveness  :P

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #216 on: June 16, 2018, 02:26:26 AM »
Something different for HAWK missiles:

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #217 on: June 16, 2018, 02:27:19 AM »
And speaking of HAWKs, this might make an interesting diorama:

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #218 on: June 22, 2018, 01:36:55 PM »
Question: outside of the secondary weapon function onboard the T-72 Moderna 1, is anyone aware of any self-propelled anti-aircraft application for the Oerlikon KAA or any other 20mm x 128 cannon?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 02:17:00 PM by dy031101 »
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #219 on: June 23, 2018, 03:44:30 AM »
Question: outside of the secondary weapon function onboard the T-72 Moderna 1, is anyone aware of any self-propelled anti-aircraft application for the Oerlikon KAA or any other 20mm x 128 cannon?


Whilst not AA applications, the Swiss Saurer Tartaruga and Panzer 58 did use the cannon:







Apart from those and possibly some truck mounted temporary installations, I am not aware of any dedicated applications.
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #220 on: June 23, 2018, 04:20:36 AM »
And speaking of HAWKs, this might make an interesting diorama:



Doing that exact scene would be a bit difficult unless AMT re-pops their '61 full-size Chevy, but a diorama with the general sense could be done.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #221 on: June 23, 2018, 05:04:03 AM »
Whilst not AA applications, the Swiss Saurer Tartaruga and Panzer 58 did use the cannon......

I used your response as a clue for further Google search and found this (see attachment).

A website claimed that a Swiss prototype was built on the hull of an AMX-13 with four KAA guns.  This is the only picture I found matching the description (minus the certainty of the guns being the KAA).
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 05:10:10 AM by dy031101 »
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #222 on: June 23, 2018, 05:14:48 AM »
Cool
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #223 on: June 23, 2018, 08:23:48 AM »
I find this thread really interesting, the systems shown are sort of where I'd go if I was building some models of them. But then the practical side of my brain kicks in ------ if they were under a sustained attack, they would very quickly run out of ammunition wouldn't they.  So what do the support vehicles look like ? Can they be replenished with ammo quickly ? What sort of supply line do they need ?

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #224 on: June 24, 2018, 03:01:11 AM »
In the case of SPAAGs, I believe that although they do have fantastic rates of fire, in reality they do short bursts.  As for reloading, both they and SAMs are, I believe, typically just reloaded from trucks.  That said, something akin to a M992A2 FAASV for SPAAGs would be interesting:

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #225 on: June 24, 2018, 11:21:35 AM »
Generally, most SPAAG's are reloaded from trucks.  While they have prestigious rates of fire from their guns, they tend to fire in short bursts.  Few if any of them would be able to fire their sustained rate of fire without melting the barrels.   A few have reloading "cassettes" which allow their ammunition supply to be reloaded in one, quick hit.   However, that generally requires rear access and large hatches.   As most SPAAG are conversions from other vehicles, they often have to be reloaded through small ammunition hatches on the turret/hull top.

Most SAMs have specialised reloading vehicles - usually truck mounted, equipped with cranes to handle the large, heavy usually awkwardly shaped missiles.   The Soviets were very good with that, having specialised vehicles in first, second and third line which were designed to speedily allow the reloading on the launchers and their supply vehicles.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 12:27:41 PM by Rickshaw »

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #226 on: June 25, 2018, 04:00:51 AM »
Some photos of a Tunguska loading ammo:



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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #227 on: June 26, 2018, 12:04:46 AM »
First two: examples of the expedient mounts on trucks and APCs.

Second two: Nile 23, perhaps a representation of what it would look like to give the expedient mounts a shelter (and maybe some powered traverse and elevation, for guns that don't have those).
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 01:31:39 AM by dy031101 »
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #228 on: June 27, 2018, 08:16:25 AM »
sustained attack, they would very quickly run out of ammunition wouldn't they. 

Sustained attacks don't really happen, its pretty much a pop-up, roll, and attack run. Typical burst from the twin 35's was 1.5 seconds. Combat bursts, 2.5 seconds, were for incoming ARM's.

ADATS troops of 4 carried 32 missiles ready to fire, and could be resupplied from the 10 ton HLVW or even other ADATS that didn't fire (it would be unlikely to have 2 ADATS covering the same arcs apart from some overlap) 

The Canadian Army is standing up the Air Defence project. I heard they were going around asking for old AD Gunners, as we haven't run a course in many years since giving up that combat function.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #229 on: June 27, 2018, 08:34:44 AM »
Except in Iraq, I read the attack went on for a couple of hours ----   ???

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #230 on: June 28, 2018, 11:06:15 AM »
OK, guess I was wrong.

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #231 on: June 28, 2018, 12:49:52 PM »
First three: SWS-2, an export SPAAG from the PRC, with one 35mm gun and four TY-90 missiles.  Although what caught my eyes isn't the turret weapons but the AFV-like chassis- in this case, in two different styles- rather than the logistics truck style that systems like this are often displayed with.

Bottom: FK-1000, an export SAM system from the PRC, with 12 Chinese counterparts to the 9M311 missiles and two 23mm cannons. A poor man's Pantsir-S.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 12:00:54 AM by dy031101 »
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #232 on: June 29, 2018, 03:13:39 PM »
Some photos of a Tunguska loading ammo:





I can't help but be impressed by the Russian/Soviet emphasis on simplicity and efficiency when it comes to maintenance and replenishment in the field!   

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #233 on: June 30, 2018, 11:41:31 AM »
Apart from those and possibly some truck mounted temporary installations, I am not aware of any dedicated applications.

I would prefer all-weather accommodations, but going one-lower, I was reminded of the style of the Flakpanzer 38(t)...... I'm inclined to wonder if the AMX-13 chassis would have enough room to accommodate the KAA gun(s) installed in that manner...... or even a T-54......

« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 12:30:06 PM by dy031101 »
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #234 on: July 12, 2018, 03:17:10 AM »
The original successor to the Chaparral- the Chaparral Chassis Service Life Extension Program.

Sharing chassis with the LAV-25, six hardpoints, at least two of which can carry rocket pods or Hellfire missiles instead of the Chaparral missiles.
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Offline Marderman

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #235 on: July 12, 2018, 05:38:41 PM »
Hello,
no idea, no inspiration, real scratch-build:

M 1047: I saw only 2 photos from this real vehicle in the jap."tank-magazine" and thought, I must build it. The model is a conversion with the M 730-Chaparral(AFV-Club)turret on the LAV (Italeri). I build it in 1995.




M 1108: Only 2 photos from this real vehicle in the Japanese "Tank" magazine and thought, I must build it. The model is a conversion on a longer made M 730-Chaparral (AFV-Club) and the cabin from the MLRS. I build it in 1996.





M727: I built this vehicle in 1994 using the M548 from AFV Club. The rocket launcher is the old Revell model which I built in 1983. I adapt it on my scratch-built conversion. I´ve built it after I saw only two photos in the Squadron magazine. But today a real kit from Dragon. :icon_twisted:





M 975 Roland: The US version of the Roland was only a prototype, I believe. I built the model 1994 with an old M 109 and the Resin turret of HP model and scratched parts.






Didi

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
    • SketchUp 3D Warehouse - My Digital Models
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #236 on: July 13, 2018, 02:53:14 AM »
@ Mardemrman - Great work on all of your air defense vehicles!  Also quite an accomplishment to build some of those based on just two images and get the results you have achieved. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #237 on: July 21, 2018, 06:31:09 AM »
Inspired work there
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Gingie

  • The LAV sausage-maker…goes nice with a home made beer I understand
  • Has been to Tatooine...
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #238 on: July 21, 2018, 10:56:33 PM »
Good read on Bradley Linebacker. I just picked up a Meng M3A3 and plan to do a Whif of a current Linebacker assuming it had gone through 20+ years of upgrades.

https://forums.eugensystems.com/viewtopic.php?t=47122