Author Topic: USS Robin is transferred to the RAN  (Read 9449 times)

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
USS Robin is transferred to the RAN
« on: May 04, 2015, 10:25:59 PM »
The UK loaned HMS Victorious to the USN in December 1942 where she served along side USS Saratoga, under the code name USS Robin, from May until September 1943 before returning to the UK in October.  What if Victorious is transferred to the RAN either as part of, or at the end of, this loan?

OZ RB Fans Whirlwind got me thinking and reading when I came across a point I had forgotten, specifically, in December 1942 when the Australian Minister for External Affairs, H.V. "Doc" Evatt, travelled to the US and UK to request additional aircraft for the RAAF, he also requested an aircraft carrier for the RAN from the UK.  This was the same time as the US requested the loan of a carrier to make up for the recent loss of Hornet and Enterprise so it is hardly surprising that the US request was given precedence of the Australian one. 

Now how about there was some lateral thinking along the lines of killing two birds with one stone and the loan of Victorious also saw her transfer to the RAN, either as  part of her loan to the USN or immediately following it.  The RAN was at this point integrating with the USN and as such was already working very closely with them in the Pacific, they had requested a carrier but none were available and the UK was keen to be involved in the Pacific proper but Admiral King was opposed to this.  This could have seen the RAN receive a carrier and that vessel be loaned to the USN, where it could either have continued serving with the USN for the duration, or it could have served as the foundation of the British Pacific Fleet when it was eventually formed, hopefully expediting the process and removing many US objections.

RAN FAA would have been formed and drawn many personnel from the RAAF, taking over from seconded RN personnel through 1943.  Stations would have been established in Australia in pretty much the same way as they were post war with some new and others transferred from the RAAF, Garden Island and Cockatoo were already upgraded or being upgraded to repair and refit capital ships at the time anyway.  What would have followed this 1943 transfer to Australia, would there have been additional carriers (perhaps Implacable and Indefatigable), perhaps battleships, or even HMS Renown (maybe instead of Shropshire)?  There could have been a RAN squadron in either the US or BPF consisting of Victorious, Renown, Australia, Hobart, the three Tribal's, four surviving N's, and the Q's, maybe this could have been expanded with additional transferred RN ships and even seconded RN ships prior to the formation of the BPF and then later, the Australian squadron could have served with the BPF.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 11:54:46 AM by Volkodav »

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: USS Robin is transferred to the RAN
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2015, 03:17:04 AM »
You lost my attention as soon as you mentioned Whirlwind and Carrier in the same topic...hmmm...carrier based Westland Whirlwind (Sea Whirlwind...) with folding wings etc...
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: USS Robin is transferred to the RAN
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2015, 10:04:16 AM »
You lost my attention as soon as you mentioned Whirlwind and Carrier in the same topic...hmmm...carrier based Westland Whirlwind (Sea Whirlwind...) with folding wings etc...

The exact chain of thought was OZ RB Fan had the RAAF getting Whirlwinds instead of Spitfires, three squadrons of which were promised to Australia by Churchill when Doc Evatt visited the UK requesting modern fighter aircraft and also an aircraft carrier.  Looking at the date and having recently read a book on RN carriers and another on the British Pacific Fleet I recalled the date of Evatt's visit and request coincided with the UKs decision to loan Victorious to the US.  One plus one equals seventeen and I thought why couldn't the RN transfer Victorious to the RAN, which was already operating with the USN in the war against Japan.

A navalised Whirlwind is something I have thought of for a different RAN Whiff, i.e. Australia develops and maintains a substantial strategic ship building industry, following Town (Birmingham) Class cruisers with County Class heavy cruisers, developing a light carrier based on the County hull and machinery, a 6" gunned cruiser based on the Counties (four triple turrets) and as war approaches a twin shaft single hanger version of Ark Royal.  Initially Hawker Nimrods and Ospreys are manufactured locally for the light carrier but carrier versions of the Hurricane and Henley are developed to serve on the modified Ark as fighter and dive bomber, while the Whirlwind was developed as a long range fighter bomber / torpedo fighter.  ;)

Offline Cliffy B

  • Ship Whiffer Extraordinaire...master of Beyond Visual Range Modelling
  • Its ZOTT!!!
    • My Artwork
Re: USS Robin is transferred to the RAN
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2015, 10:18:59 AM »
Please continue sir!  By all means, please continue! 8)
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: USS Robin is transferred to the RAN
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2015, 10:41:29 AM »
Too many ideas, not enough time, or more to the point, free space to build the ideas.  I don't even have a work bench or usable desk, but have hopes for a lap tray I bought the other day.

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: USS Robin is transferred to the RAN
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2015, 11:37:32 AM »
Fascinating possibilities, here.  Would it be operating US types in RAN markings or Australian-built aircraft?  If it's operating with the USN's fast carrier task forces, I'd argue for US types to keep the logisitics and supply footprint down.

Oh, one possible minor typo, I believe that should be "expediting", not "expatiating" (at least that seems to make more sense to me).

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: USS Robin is transferred to the RAN
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2015, 11:58:42 AM »
Fascinating possibilities, here.  Would it be operating US types in RAN markings or Australian-built aircraft?  If it's operating with the USN's fast carrier task forces, I'd argue for US types to keep the logisitics and supply footprint down.

Oh, one possible minor typo, I believe that should be "expediting", not "expatiating" (at least that seems to make more sense to me).

A combination of a typo (I make many on my tablet) and auto correct, if I am not quick enough it will change it to something unintended before I realise there was a typo at all.  Fixed now thanks.

USS Robin had an airgroup of Wildcats and Avengers so I imagine the Wildcats would have given way to Hellcats although Vic did fly Corsairs late war.

Offline finsrin

  • The Dr Frankenstein of the modelling world...when not hiding from SBA
  • Finds part glues it on, finds part glues it on....
Re: USS Robin is transferred to the RAN
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2015, 01:05:29 PM »
Too many ideas, not enough time, or more to the point, free space to build the ideas.  I don't even have a work bench or usable desk, but have hopes for a lap tray I bought the other day.

Is much the same here too.

Offline Cliffy B

  • Ship Whiffer Extraordinaire...master of Beyond Visual Range Modelling
  • Its ZOTT!!!
    • My Artwork
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: USS Robin is transferred to the RAN
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2015, 10:11:55 AM »
If she was transferred to the RAN where would the crews have come from?  The RAN had zero experience operating a ship that size and type.  The RN crews would not appreciate operating in the SW Pacific, so far from home under RAN command.  They would have appreciated the increased pay and rations and types of food/drink available to a RAN ship's crew though.   So, it would be a lose-win situation for them.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: USS Robin is transferred to the RAN
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2015, 01:16:48 PM »
If she was transferred to the RAN where would the crews have come from?  The RAN had zero experience operating a ship that size and type.  The RN crews would not appreciate operating in the SW Pacific, so far from home under RAN command.  They would have appreciated the increased pay and rations and types of food/drink available to a RAN ship's crew though.   So, it would be a lose-win situation for them.
 

Exactly the same place the vast majority of such crews came from in every other navy.  Key personnel would have been seconded from the RN and RAN personnel would have been trained and deployed in the same way as USN and RN recruits were. Volunteer pilots and ground crew would have transferred from the RAAF to serve along side experienced RN FAA personnel and Australian recruits would have entered the appropriate training schemes, possibly some of the many New Zealanders who were trained during the war and served with the RN FAA with distinction would have served on an Australian carrier.

This is a whiff but rather than being based on fantasy it is based on the very real request by the Australian Government for an aircraft carrier that was denied because none were available at that time.  Even when Shropshire was transferred to the RAN some RN crew were seconded with her, it would be the same with a carrier.  The carrier would have been transferred with a predominately RN crew that would have progressively been replaced by RAN personnel as they became available from various training establishments and from exchange service on other RN and possibly USN carriers.  Both the RN and USN massively expanded their naval air arms during the war, Australia would have initially tagged onto those existing schemes and progressively inserted their own people into key roles as they became available, i.e. pretty much the same as happened when HMAS Sydney was acquired in the late 40s but with much greater urgency.  If this had happened I anticipate Vics first Australian captain would have been one John Augustine Collins.

Now I will sit back and wait for the inevitable, but that couldn't have happened.....but the.....we never.....cost too much......not enough people.....not enough time.....money better spent......not enough experience......take too long.....you should read.....you are naïve....better to have reacquired Albatross and converted her into a CVE.....you need to understand.....that's racist rubbish....can't be done.....if you had read such and such you would know that so and so blah blah blah, which means that blah blah blah, so blah blah blah.  Then, assuming I can be bothered reading whatever pointless, argumentative, condescending clap trap you come back with, I get to decide whether to ignore you and watch the topic die as you have derailed the topic and bored everyone to the point they no longer care, or continue trying to discuss it, get into pointless circular arguments that bore everyone, but you, that derail and kill the topic anyway.  Again, my standard response to you and others like you, this is a what if site and this is a what if scenario and if I really wanted to I could have had Australia joining the Axis powers and going to war on the side of Japan with Japanese carriers flying Zeros, Vals and Kates.  So please please please stop telling me what I can and can not imagine, theorise and postulate!

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: USS Robin is transferred to the RAN
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2015, 01:24:25 PM »
Found these shots tonight of Victorious operating with the USN.  She has a load of TBFs operating from the flight deck in some.  Random shot of CV-8 as well.  Not sure if its a mislabel or supposed to go with the series.  :)

http://russiannavy.net/militaryPhotos/archives/victorious1.jpg
http://russiannavy.net/militaryPhotos/archives/victorious2.jpg
http://russiannavy.net/militaryPhotos/archives/victorious3.jpg
http://russiannavy.net/militaryPhotos/archives/victorious4.jpg
http://russiannavy.net/militaryPhotos/archives/victorious5.jpg
http://russiannavy.net/militaryPhotos/archives/victorious6.jpg
http://russiannavy.net/militaryPhotos/archives/victorious7.jpg
http://russiannavy.net/militaryPhotos/archives/victorious8.jpg
http://russiannavy.net/militaryPhotos/archives/victorious9.jpg


As I understand it USS Robin had a mix of RN and USN personnel, in particular in the air group.  I imaging had she been transferred to the RAN concurrently with her loan to the USN what would have happened is RAN personnel would have been assigned to understudy their RN and USN equivalents, i.e. transferred RAAF personnel in the air group, engineering and seaman branch sailors and officers learning the ship, perhaps John Collins being posted as Captain but working with his RN counterpart until he was up to speed, pretty much how the RANs AWDs will be under the command of a civilian master mariner for trial but the RAN captain will be on board, learning the ship, building his team and taking over on commissioning.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: USS Robin is transferred to the RAN
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2015, 10:42:14 PM »
If she was transferred to the RAN where would the crews have come from?  The RAN had zero experience operating a ship that size and type.  The RN crews would not appreciate operating in the SW Pacific, so far from home under RAN command.  They would have appreciated the increased pay and rations and types of food/drink available to a RAN ship's crew though.   So, it would be a lose-win situation for them.
 

Exactly the same place the vast majority of such crews came from in every other navy.  Key personnel would have been seconded from the RN and RAN personnel would have been trained and deployed in the same way as USN and RN recruits were. Volunteer pilots and ground crew would have transferred from the RAAF to serve along side experienced RN FAA personnel and Australian recruits would have entered the appropriate training schemes, possibly some of the many New Zealanders who were trained during the war and served with the RN FAA with distinction would have served on an Australian carrier.

So, a RAN ship which actually had little RAN crew onboard and requiring 12-18 months for RAN crew to come up to strength?

When we purchased Sydney, it had very little foreign crew onboard as we had sent the RAN crew to the UK for training which took about 2 years.  Allowing that this is wartime and some expediency allowing weekends and similar frivolous peacetime pursuits to be shaved from the training, I think about 18 months would be about right.

Quote
This is a whiff but rather than being based on fantasy it is based on the very real request by the Australian Government for an aircraft carrier that was denied because none were available at that time.  Even when Shropshire was transferred to the RAN some RN crew were seconded with her, it would be the same with a carrier.  The carrier would have been transferred with a predominately RN crew that would have progressively been replaced by RAN personnel as they became available from various training establishments and from exchange service on other RN and possibly USN carriers.  Both the RN and USN massively expanded their naval air arms during the war, Australia would have initially tagged onto those existing schemes and progressively inserted their own people into key roles as they became available, i.e. pretty much the same as happened when HMAS Sydney was acquired in the late 40s but with much greater urgency.  If this had happened I anticipate Vics first Australian captain would have been one John Augustine Collins.

Now I will sit back and wait for the inevitable, but that couldn't have happened.....but the.....we never.....cost too much......not enough people.....not enough time.....money better spent......not enough experience......take too long.....you should read.....you are naïve....better to have reacquired Albatross and converted her into a CVE.....you need to understand.....that's racist rubbish....can't be done.....if you had read such and such you would know that so and so blah blah blah, which means that blah blah blah, so blah blah blah.  Then, assuming I can be bothered reading whatever pointless, argumentative, condescending clap trap you come back with, I get to decide whether to ignore you and watch the topic die as you have derailed the topic and bored everyone to the point they no longer care, or continue trying to discuss it, get into pointless circular arguments that bore everyone, but you, that derail and kill the topic anyway.  Again, my standard response to you and others like you, this is a what if site and this is a what if scenario and if I really wanted to I could have had Australia joining the Axis powers and going to war on the side of Japan with Japanese carriers flying Zeros, Vals and Kates.  So please please please stop telling me what I can and can not imagine, theorise and postulate!

I am sorry that you perceive my points in this manner.   I will leave it here then.  It is your Whiff, without a doubt and you should perhaps treat it as such, rather than ask questions of your readers if you don't want responses which point out some of the flaws with your ideas.  Real life tends to be a lot harder than whiff-world, remember that.  Things happened the way they did for a reason in real life.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: USS Robin is transferred to the RAN
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2015, 11:54:13 PM »
I have no problem with responses, discussion, even disagreement, what I and many others, have an issue with is continual, condescending negativity and one upsmanship.  When I see you have responded to anything I need to grit my teeth before reading it as what you post is usually critical and dismissive of those you see as your intellectual inferiors.  It is not just me as there are others, one in particular I can think of, who no longer post here because he was thoroughly sick of you arguing virtually every point anyone posted on your areas of interest.

Wartime is very different to peace time and the 18 months it took post war would have been greatly condensed through necessity during the war.  The RAN was also very closely integrated with the RN from its inception even to the point of RAN tonnage being counted in RN limits meaning that all non-aviation branches were well covered off and wholly compatible with a carrier designed and built for the RN.  This very close integration between the two navies means that it was quite common for British, Australian, Canadian and New Zealand personnel to serve on each others ships, in fact HMS Puncher and HMS Nabob (both Brogue class CVEs) were both crewed by the RCN during the war with the air groups remaining RN, even then a significant proportion of the FAA was actually made up of New Zealanders.  Thus it is quite possible for Victorious to have been transferred to the RAN with RN officers and specialists filling certain critical roles and the air group to have initially remained RN FAA before sufficient Australians were converted (in the case of RAAF) and trained (in the case of RAN FAA) to take over.

The transfer of Victorious to the RAN would have changed very little in the overall conduct of the war, there would have been Australian sailors serving on board a carrier instead of other ships and RN sailors available to serve elsewhere who otherwise would have served on Victorious.  When Victorious was loaned to the US a significant number of USN personnel were embarked to make integration with the US fleet and the use of US aircraft possible, this would still have occurred, the only real difference would have been the accent heard on the mess decks.  1943 would have been a year of transition with RN and USN experts being critical during the loan but come September, instead of returning to the UK Vic would have sailed to the US or Australia for refit and been joined by even more Australian crew to replace RN personnel, crew who had received intensive training in the nine months since the transfer was initiated.  There is no reason why this could not have been done and successfully at that.

The point you miss is the militaries of 1945 were very different to those of 1939, the world was very different, there were boys at school at the start of the war who were commanding FAA squadrons at the end of the conflict, actually there were Royal Marines who had never ridden on an aircraft pre war who commanded FAA fighter squadrons by the end of the war.  As I mentioned, a large number of New Zealanders ended up in the RN FAA, there is no reason why Australians could not have been streamed to the FAA in the same way.  Due to the RAF controlling naval aviation pre-war, most RN carrier officers and captains, even by the end of the war, were not pilots, or even necessarily specifically experienced in carriers, this was also the case in the post war RAN FAA for many years until sufficient pilots had risen through the ranks.


Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: USS Robin is transferred to the RAN
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2015, 12:35:13 AM »
The pre war RAN was basically a Fleet Unit, minus a capital ship, i.e. two heavy cruisers in lieu of a battlecruiser, a couple of fleet (light) cruisers, a squadron (preferably a flotilla of destroyers) and a couple of support ships (tenders).  As I understand it besides the battlecruiser, the only thing missing was the submarine squadron and the carrier Jellicoe recommended each Fleet Unit would need.  Based on Ark Royal and Vanguard being intended for the Far East to balance Japanese power, while the KGVs, Armoured Fleet Carriers, older battleships and carriers were intended for Home and the Mediterranean, it is quite conceivable that they could have been ear marked specifically to integrate/operate with the RAN in the even of Japanese aggression.  Prior to the completion of Vanguard either Renown or Repulse would have been a logical wartime addition to the RAN.

Once the war started their was no way the UK would release Ark or a battlecruiser to Australia, however it is conceivable that Australians could have crewed such ships but remained with the RN, only returning to RAN control once Japan entered the war, as actually occurred with pre war RAN ships serving with the RN as well as many Australian crewed vessels that had never actually been to Australia.  While I honestly believe the transfer of Victorious to Australia could have been conducted as suggested above, it is also conceivable that it could have been a product of pre war planning where Australians serving in various postings within the RN between the wars could also have served and trained on capital ships with the specific intent of a battlecruiser and carrier transferring to the RAN in the event of war with Japan.

Initially the battlecruiser concerned would have been Tiger, then Renown, followed by Repulse, basically the lease advanced/upgraded ship at any given time, with the same principle applying to carriers, i.e. Hermes and Furious.  The advent of the Armoured Fleet Carriers for European operations could have added Ark to the list of ships available to Australia, while the KGVs would have freed up both Renowns. 

A bit of foresight and this could have been quite viable, however I still like the idea of Captain John Augustine Collins, fresh from his success in the Med, and his hand picked crew joining Victorious just before she sailed to the US.  During the transit they would have familiarised themselves with the ship and worked out what they could do and where they would need experienced RN personnel to remain.  Thus most junior officers and sailors would be RAN, RANR or RANVR, while senior billets would be shared between RN and RAN(R/VR), while RAAF volunteers would have arrived in the US and begun training, not just on F4Fs and TBFs but also in carrier operations, thus by the time the refit was complete the Australians would have been up to speed and working well with their USN and RN mentors ready to deploy to Pearl Harbour.

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
  • "Define 'interesting'?"
Re: USS Robin is transferred to the RAN
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2015, 08:46:30 AM »
I like the idea as a whif with a fairly high degree of plausibility.

OK, it didn't happen for various reasons but in a whif there is the opportunity to modify some of those reasons to make the idea fit.

In my RAM whif I'm considering having HMAS Sydney (2) survive her encounter with Kormoran & going on to be the initial core of a RAM assault task force.

As a side note: I didn't realise, until you gave his full name, that John Collins had the same middle name as my maternal grandfather, Joseph Augustine Siebert (who served in both wars).
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: USS Robin is transferred to the RAN
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2015, 01:34:59 PM »
One of the things I like about the idea is it provides the RAN with a viable capability in 1943/44 and opens the possibility of manning additional carriers in 44/45 as part of the British Pacific Fleet.  These additional carriers could be the transfer of one or more Colossus Class CVLs (Ocean was actually flagged for transfer to the RAN during the war) or the manning of Implacable and or Indefatigable (also I have heard proposed).  Neither of these real proposals went ahead but may have gained more traction if the RAN was already crewing, if not operating their own carrier, as it is the proposals related to free of charge transfers, in the case of the Colossus option, and loans for the Implacables, verses the post war purchase of two Majestics.  Either could have seen a far more capable post war RAN at lower cost as upgrading the free Victorious and Colossus would likely have been cheaper than acquiring new ships and building the infrastructure post war, even buying (at a reduced cost rather than returning)and then upgrading the Implacables may have worked out cheaper.

There would have been two upgrades, an initial one to operate post war aircraft and early jets, then a later one incorporating an interim angled deck or possibly a complete rebuild or anything in between.  What would be interesting is what would have happened with the RN carrier force if Vic and the Implacables were transferred to the RAN as Illustrious and Formidable were basically shagged, leaving only Indomitable, with Eagle, Ark, Albion, Bulwark Centaur and Hermes building.  They could have completed additional Audacious or Centaur / Hermes class hulls, continued with the Maltas, upgraded Colossus and Majestic hulls to tide them over until a new fleet carrier class could be designed and constructed incorporating all the post war advances?

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: USS Robin is transferred to the RAN
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2015, 11:47:24 PM »
I post topics because something, here or elsewhere has given me an idea so I put it down on here for modelling, alt history, or whiff like equipment / materiel and on other sites for politics, defence, industry, technology, etc.  HMS Victorious being transferred to the RAN in late 1942 or early 1943 is just one of these ideas.  A whiff, a could have been, a trigger for a familiar but quite different Australian involvement in the Pacifica war, a different BPF, a different post war RAN, i.e. HMAS Victorious off Korea with a larger air group that could even have contained some jets.

I would really appreciate it if others would pick up this topic again, get it moving with ideas, questions, answers, relevant facts relating to timing, equipment, flow on effects, i.e. what would have happened to the RN if they gifted and sold Armoured Fleet Carriers during the war, would this have led to British equivalents to the Forrestals etc?