De Havilland Flamingo ideas and inspirations

[Volkodav]

What if the De Havilland Flamingo had somehow entered mass production, either in the UK, or the Dominions, during WWII?

[jcf]

OK, two questions: for what purpose and in place of what on the production line?

Planned De Havilland production was canceled so they could concentrate on
Tiger Moths.

[upnorth]

The "for what purpose?" is the real question.

There wasn't anything the Flamingo could do that other aircraft on the market couldn't already do. The idea of it was to have a British design that could compete with the DC-3 and Lockheed 10 Electra, the problem was that by the time the Flamingo was introduced to service in 1939, the other two were well established on the market and popular. DeHavilland was simply too late to the party for anyone to really care about the Flamingo.

The Flamingos which did fly were not without their problems; Three aircraft crashed, including one fatally. by most references, BOAC was not pleased with their Flamingos and were quite happy to see them go.

Perhaps there could be something in it as a training aircraft or general utility type.

Say, perhaps, the Avro Anson didn't work out and they needed something in its place.

If you could put it on floats, you might have a workable CSAR machine to fetch downed crews from the channel and so forth.

[GTX_Admin]

What about a DH Flamingo (pictured below):



With an engine arrangement similar to (though more powerful) the DH Albatross:

[Silver Fox]

I don't know what use they would be in service... but they would make excellent gate guardians.

Just imagine them parked there, perched on only one extended U/C leg. :)

[perttime]

Finding a logical reason to get it into production seems to be a challenge. What if DC-3 / C-47 had some serious flaw and didn't get into production - or was delayed?

Lack of a logical reason might or might not be a reason not to do it.

[jcf]

Closer in spec. to the Lockheed 14 and 18, so if those hadn't existed to be
developed into Hudson and Ventura, then mebbe a DH 95 based analog is built
in Canada, and latterly Oz, filling the same roles.

DC-3/C-47 problems just clear the way for the DC-5. 

Kit would, of course, have to do the extended span version in PRU Pink. 

[Rickshaw]

Downunder, the Hudson was adopted against the wishes of many who saw the ordering of a non-British aircraft as "treasonous" (and yes that word was bandied around).  The problem was that the UK was in 1939 unwilling to supply in quantity any aircraft to the Dominions, preferring they either got their aircraft from elsewhere (in otherwords, the US) or they built their own.   A possible scenario for Australia might have been to have the RAAF remain much truer to the UK and order the Flamingo into production in Australia.   The engines might have been a bit of a problem, perhaps replacing them with Twin Wasps?   

[Old Wombat]

Might have to have Sir Lawrence look at the control-jamming problems & fix those but the R-1830 Twin Wasp built in Australia developed 1,200 hp, so more than enough power.

Possibly enough to make it a fast transport - say about 260 mph (225 knots).

[Volkodav]

It just struck me as a promising design that went nowhere because of timing.  The scenario would have been UK production facilitated by  outsourcing the Tigermoth to the dominions or establishing production in the dominions.

If production was started in Australia then emergency measure light bomber, general reconnaissance, maritime patrol/ASW versions are quite conceivable.

Once it entered series production I would imagine it's teething problems would be sorted out pretty quickly.  It would have been interesting to see what it evolved into as well as what it spawned, say for instance forward fuselage stretch and tricycle under carriage, or a larger version with four engines.

[perttime]

Lockheed 14 and 18, so if those hadn't existed ....

Did Lockheed build them in California?

EARTHQUAKE!

[jcf]

Lockheed 14 and 18, so if those hadn't existed ....

Did Lockheed build them in California?

EARTHQUAKE!

Nothing so drastic required, simply have the Lockheed folks not able to make the Model 14
based bomber presentation to the British Purchasing Commission in 1938. Derail the process
that led to the Hudson and a lot changes.

Or, the Brits have more ££ on hand and go for the Boeing proposal of a B-17 based long range
patrol-recce aircraft. The other two contenders were a B-18 based aircraft from Douglas and
an amphibian version of the Consolidated Model 28.
The last was considered too slow in 1938. 

Tiger Moths were built and/or assembled in Canada, Oz and NZ. Brit production was transferred
to Morris in 1940 so Hatfield could concentrate on the Mosquito.

[Old Wombat]

One of the other main deciding factors for British aircraft production was engines - they couldn't produce enough of them.

Airframes were never really an issue, all wartime aircraft were disposable, so the use of semi-/quasi-skilled labour & less than perfect materials wasn't a problem (the dH Mosquito is a perfect example) &, if you could set up a few jigs & run a welder & pop rivets, you could make them in any old barn.

Engines, on the other hand, had precision tolerances, ran at high speeds & high temperatures, with high stresses & needed to be as light as possible. These required highly skilled labour, high quality materials & precision engineering.

In this case the Bristol Perseus engine had, also, almost reached the peak of its development (the final Mk's did develop 1,200 hp). Bristol & the government would have wanted the focus to be on the Hercules & Centaurus engines, which had much more development potential (just as they had curtailed the production of the RR Peregrine, which was the culmination of old technology, in favour of the Merlin).

If you look at the list of aircraft the Perseus was used on you'll note that none of them were really contemporaries of the Flamingo, with the exceptions or the Roc, Skua & Lysander. The Roc & Skua were 2nd rate aircraft indicative of Britain's poor grasp of the importance of naval air power in the war to come (focused as they were on the "War in Europe" scenario) & which they saw as unimportant, until they lost everything north of Malta & began a mad scramble to rectify their oversight. The Lysander was a special case & didn't need a great deal of power &, even so, the Perseus was only used in the Mk.II version.

    Blackburn Botha
    Blackburn Roc
    Blackburn Skua
    Bristol Bulldog
    Bristol Type 148
    Cunliffe-Owen Flying Wing
    de Havilland Flamingo
    de Havilland Hertfordshire
    Gloster Goring
    Hawker Hart
    Saro A.33
    Short Empire
    Short Scylla
    Vickers Vellox
    Vickers Vildebeest Mk.IV
    Westland Lysander Mk.II

Still, with a different engine & with a time-line twist, you could probably get away with it.

[LemonJello]

What about a DH Flamingo (pictured below):

I don't know why, but I find this to be a rather attractive looking airplane.  Also, it quietly whispers in my ear, "Make me a WWII precursor to the AC-130!"

[Old Wombat]

It is an attractive looking plane &, with a better engine & the Lockhheed Hudson & Ventura out of the picture, could have replaced them as coastal ASW patrol & light bombers, & been used in the transport role.

Engine options:

Pratt & Whitney R-1830 Twin Wasp
Bristol Hercules
Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp

[Volkodav]

Looking at it from the point of view that the in many ways less advanced, post war Vickers Viking was seen as a success, if a way could have been found to produce it during the war, then evolved versions could have bridged DH to the Comet.  There could have been tricycle undercarriage versions, four engines, jet or turbo prop versions, pressurized versions (this could have saved a lot of grief later), or even a model with a rear cargo ramp.

[Thunderbolt]

Would be good for dropping troops into enemy territory: All you'd need is a ramp in the back

[dogsbody]

Lower the belly a bit and add a small bombay, enough to hold a few depth charges. Replace the Perseus engines with Hercules and add a dorsal turret, either a Fraser-Nash or Boulton-Paul and use it like the RAF used the Hudson. A couple of Brownings fixed in the nose would be good, too.


Chris