Author Topic: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration  (Read 20149 times)

Offline dy031101

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Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« on: October 27, 2013, 02:28:58 PM »
Continuing from a thread of on same topic from you-know-where......

I've been thinking of the idea of re-engining the early M48 tank with steam engine.  rickshaw's suggestion is that a large exhaust be added.

Then I found out that early M48s actually have their engine exhaust mounted ahead of the gun travel lock, the grilles mistaken by me to be engine exhaust actually being engine and transmission access......

Is that exhaust large enough for use by a steam engine?

(Well, one a second thought, that exhaust seems just large enough to get in the way of my other upgrade idea for the tank......)

Other suggestions on this topic will be welcomed as well.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 02:50:10 PM by dy031101 »
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2013, 09:52:00 PM »
As this is a whiff and not a real life vehicle, you can basically put the exhaust where you like.   Remember, you're not using the petrol engine in the vehicle, so it would be unlikely to have the exhausts emerge from the hull in the same position.

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2013, 10:43:56 PM »
Granting that this is a WHIF and also stipulating that I am a mechical engineer by trade, I tend to have my WHIFs be eminently plausible and I start to disbelieve things that are simply not possible in the environment in which they are imagined.

Along those lines, a steam powered M48 is simply too implausible to work visually. If you look at the mass of the tank involved (about 50 tons) and power ratio needed to achieve the mobility of the M48, about 15 hp/ton, and factor in the known fact that steam engines have a significantly lower power density than internal combustion engines, the concept simply doesn't work.

Any supposed engine you put in there will look ridiculously too small and any appropriately sized engine will be bigger than the entire tank. You would need an engine the size of an old time locomotive to produce the 750 HP needed to move an M48 properly and such an engine would weight a lot more than 50 tons on its own. Like 2-3 times more.

And where would you put the coal bunker and how would the stoker stoke the boiler? :)

For me, a WHIF has to hang together as being plausible for the viewer to suspend disbelief. If it violates a sense of "rightness", then the idea and the model starts to fall apart.

Just my two Canuck pennies, of course.

Paul

Offline perttime

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2013, 11:11:06 PM »
What about... Steam turbine.
You don't necessarily need solid fuels to generate steam.

Apparently ... a steam-powered version of the Messerschmitt Me 264 was hypothesized but never constructed - in 1944. It was meant to be powered by a steam turbine developing over 6,000 horsepower (4,500 kW), fueled with a mixture of powdered coal and petroleum.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2013, 11:18:42 PM »
I've been under the impression that steam engine for tanks will have rather much to do with the development of steam cars.

Actually, rickshaw, would you mind reposting the article here?  Thanks in advance.  Always wanting to hear more people voicing their opinions of it.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 04:53:35 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Online elmayerle

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2013, 01:30:41 AM »
Just throwing a concept out for thought.  A liquid-fueled high-pressure boiler feeding a steam turbine/generator set and the tank run by electricity.  This has the advantage of reducing the mechanical complexity of the system and could allow for multiple drive-motors per track, adding redundancy to improve damage tolerance.

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2013, 06:34:21 AM »
What about... Steam turbine.
You don't necessarily need solid fuels to generate steam.

Apparently ... a steam-powered version of the Messerschmitt Me 264 was hypothesized but never constructed - in 1944. It was meant to be powered by a steam turbine developing over 6,000 horsepower (4,500 kW), fueled with a mixture of powdered coal and petroleum.
It's a scientific fact that any and all external combustion cycles are significantly less power dense than the equivalent power internal combustion cycle. In addition, you need large amounts of water to generate the steam and then large heat exchangers to dump the heat into the air to get your water back. If you use some of the waste heat to warm up the water & increase efficiency, oyu increase weight again to account for the regenerators. Now, the 264 was a large bomber and the ability to use other fuels than scarce petrolium may have suggested a steam turbine to someone, but the hit it would have taken on payload/performance would have been truly brutal.

Quote
I've been under the impression that steam engine for tanks will have rather much to do with the development of steam cars.
And the use of steam engines for cars is primarily to permit the use of alternate fuels. Performance will suffer dramatically.

Quote
A liquid-fueled high-pressure boiler feeding a steam turbine/generator set and the tank run by electricity.
Still massively inefficient and low powered. There is a fundamental problem with and, repeat, any application of external combustion. They are inefficient and low power. There is no way to get more out of a steam system thatn an equivalent mass internal combustion system. There is a reason that even the largest ships are now using diesels rather than any sort of steam. They are better. On the most fundament level, just simply better. If a diesel exists no-one would ever replace it with a steam engine of any type. If diesels are not available then any vehicle powered by steam will have significantly lower performance on all levels.

Quote
This has the advantage of reducing the mechanical complexity of the system
Without trying to be mean, where would you get this idea? The Steam engine alone is significantly more complex than the diesel as it sits. Adding the electrical generating system and the motors just adds to it. It would be a mechanical nightmare. Even with an internal combustion engine, Dr. Ferdinand Porche couldn't make it work properly on the Ferdinand.

No steam engine buildable using the laws of this universe can be made that will propel a vehicle even 1/2 the weight of an M48 any distance at all and still fit within even twice the volume of the Patton's engine bay.

There's a reason we don't use 'em anymore, y'know!  :)  :)

Paul

Online elmayerle

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2013, 07:45:40 AM »
The thought was that a steam turbine driving a generator set with output going direct to drive motors for the treads would be less complex that the transmission and driveshaft.  I agree that a regular steam engine would not fit as well.  If I wanted true multi-fuel capacity, I'd pobably either use a gas turbine or a SCORE (Stratified Charge  Omnivorous Rotary Engine) for power.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2013, 08:08:17 AM »
Have a look at the original article which inspired the thread.  According to it, you can get higher power densities from steam than many realise.   External combustion engines don't need massive boilers and long pistons to work.

Offline jcf

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2013, 03:56:02 AM »
Steam is still number one in electrical power generation.  ;D

Paul, we get yer point, and speaking as the son of a steam engineer and as someone
who grew up around industrial steam, I agree with most of your points regarding steam
as a motive force*. However, this forum is here to encourage the re-imagining
of what is vs. what could be, so if folks want to envision a new Steam Age, beating
them over the head with the technical reasons why it won't work is counter-productive
as it probably won't change anybody's mind.
 :icon_fsm:
Jon

p.s. contemporary steam cars are about alt. fuels, which is not true of historical steam cars.

* Don't get me started on Steampunk "machinery", seriously, don't.  ;)
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Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
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actually is than they ever are about
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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2013, 03:58:16 AM »
* Don't get me started on Steampunk "machinery", seriously, don't.  ;)

Damn that is tempting... 8)
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2013, 08:55:43 AM »
Who's seen "Steam Boy"?  ;D ;D

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2013, 02:45:38 AM »
Who's seen "Steam Boy"?  ;D ;D

 ;D...but I did enjoy it too.
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2013, 12:31:06 PM »
I suppose I am not really walking along the full-on "New Steam Age" route...... just some steam powered vehicles here and there, pending availability of internal combustion engine vehicles.  :D

Anyway, let's go for one that's steam-powered from the ground up then......

Quote
Later, it was learned that Henschel in Germany actually had been making layouts for a steam power installation in a Tiger tank at almost the same time. They found that existing boilers and condensers occupied too much space, and since the OKH was disinterested, the project was dropped.

Does anyone know how big the "steam-powered Tiger" would have been if they were going to pull it off?  If not, would anyone be willing to venture a guess on possible size relative to the actual Tiger I based on the boiler and condenser technology of the early 1940s?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 07:39:55 PM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline jcf

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2013, 01:16:53 PM »
Going way out on a limb and saying the same size as a regular Tiger? The quoted text states
"steam power installation in a Tiger tank...".
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2013, 07:21:37 PM »
Going way out on a limb and saying the same size as a regular Tiger? The quoted text states
"steam power installation in a Tiger tank...".

Yes, I think the point being made was that they couldn't fit it inside a standard Tiger I hull...

Offline dy031101

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2013, 07:41:07 PM »
Going way out on a limb and saying the same size as a regular Tiger? The quoted text states
"steam power installation in a Tiger tank...".

Yes, I think the point being made was that they couldn't fit it inside a standard Tiger I hull...

Yeah, and so I was wondering how much larger the tank would have been if going steam powered......
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2013, 07:47:29 PM »
Going way out on a limb and saying the same size as a regular Tiger? The quoted text states
"steam power installation in a Tiger tank...".

Yes, I think the point being made was that they couldn't fit it inside a standard Tiger I hull...

Yeah, and so I was wondering how much larger the tank would have been if going steam powered......

How long is a piece of string?  We don't have any data beyond that brief mention.  I'd suggest maybe 10-20% longer?

Offline dy031101

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2013, 08:36:26 PM »
I'd suggest maybe 10-20% longer?

Precisely what I need to start contemplating on what I'll do to that Tiger I line drawing  :)
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Weaver

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2013, 08:52:06 PM »
Articulated two-body tanks and AFVs have been experimented with: how about using that principle to accomodate the greater volume of a steam engine? The boiler/turbine/generator could be in the aft body sending power to four motors on the track sprockets. Keeps the crew safer from boiler explosions too....
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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2013, 02:23:49 AM »
Articulated two-body tanks and AFVs have been experimented with: how about using that principle to accomodate the greater volume of a steam engine? The boiler/turbine/generator could be in the aft body sending power to four motors on the track sprockets. Keeps the crew safer from boiler explosions too....

I like that idea! :)
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2013, 10:59:07 AM »
Does anyone know how big the "steam-powered Tiger" would have been if they were going to pull it off?  If not, would anyone be willing to venture a guess on possible size relative to the actual Tiger I based on the boiler and condenser technology of the early 1940s?
It is very hard to establish exactly how many HP a steam locomotive makes as, like a jet engine, the HP generated increases as the speed increases. However, I found a piece that stated that a set of locomotives designed at the turn of the 1900's were the first to make 1 hp per 100 lbs of weight. If we assume that the engines of 1944 would be better and also assume that these could make, say 1 hp per 66 lb, then to produce eeh 690 hp of the Tiger I's Maybach engine would require a steam engine of 690 x 66 = 45,540 lb just for the engine. This includes the traction set up for the locomotive wheels, which we wouldn't need, but does not include the weight of the fuel and water needed to run the engine itself or a transmission to get that power to the tank's tracks. If we lose, say 10,000 lb for the locomotive wheels and call the addition of the fuel and water and transmission a wash for losing the Maybach and the regular Tiger I transmission, we are left with an additional 35,000 lb or 17.5 tons of additional mass on top of the 56 ton mass of the Tiger I. Of course, such an engine is almost the same size as the Tiger 1 hull in its entirety, the extra enclosed volume now needing to be armoured similarly to the rest of the tank, so the mass increases again. Now the power/weight ratio has dropped rather a lot so either the performance will drop a lot or the engine has to get bigger again to maintain the power ratio.

Does that help?  :)

Paul

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2013, 11:06:27 AM »
Steam is still number one in electrical power generation.  ;D
True, but the power for the steam comes from fissioning nuclei, so I don't think we can compare them, can we?  :)

Quote
However, this forum is here to encourage the re-imagining of what is vs. what could be, so if folks want to envision a new Steam Age, beating them over the head with the technical reasons why it won't work is counter-productive as it probably won't change anybody's mind.

I realise that completely, however, dy031101 asked questions relating to the reality of the steam engine that might power a Patton and whether the tank exhausts and location might be accurate for a steam engine.

If one wants to imagine a steam power Patton, just put the exhaust anywhere you want and make it any size you want. If one starts asking "how big should it be to power a Patton" you get a more factually based engineering-esque reply.  :)

Paul

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2013, 02:52:11 PM »
I think point here is that we need to differentiate between the motor and it's support systems.   The original article provides plenty of proof that you can make a small, compact but powerful steam motor.  What isn't discussed is how much water and fuel needs to be carried.  Nor does it mention, except in passing the need or not of a condenser.  If to this one chooses to add a generator to utilise electrical motors, which can also be bulky, then the package starts to become much bigger.

In particular the question of the condenser comes up as a big one.  Without it, you end up needing more water and frequent replenishment stops.  Condensers tend to be bulky and any saving in water gained may well be eaten up by the volume required of the condenser.  The quality of the water also becomes an issue.  "Hard" water with loads of dissolved minerals causes problems with scaling and other deposits.   Fuel is also an important consideration.  Solid fuels I'd suggest are basically not going to work (although powdered forms may).   How much is required would depend on how it's being used and the size of the boiler.  The original article mentions "boilerless" designs which are intriguing.

The original article as a general rule suggests, "that a steam engine of 500-horsepower is the equivalent of a 1000-horsepower internal combustion engine." so you're getting twice the power for half the size?

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Re: Steam Power For Tanks Ideas And Inspiration
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2013, 04:11:51 PM »
Steam is still number one in electrical power generation.  ;D
True, but the power for the steam comes from fissioning nuclei, so I don't think we can compare them, can we?  :)


Err...I think you will find that there are far more power generation units utilising steam turbines that are fuelled by coal, oil, natural gas etc.  Nuclear powered units are only one option!
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