Author Topic: I like Tank Destroyers  (Read 19393 times)

Offline Volkodav

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I like Tank Destroyers
« on: August 18, 2013, 12:02:30 AM »
Been doing some thinking about what to do with the Trumpeter 1/35 e-10 tank destroyer kit No. 2 son has been pestering me to build.  Its a late war wiff in a box so it doesn't really matter what I do with it but I would like the idea to be non Nazi and conceivably possible.

As an aside I have always found it interesting that Germany started the war with assault guns that re-roled and then morphed into tank destroyers with the allies, in particular the Americans, started with tank destroyers but effectively re-roled them as assault guns and the war moved on.

Ok my thinking is a military coup in Germany removed the Nazi Party from power in mid 44, say Colonel Von Stauffenberg succeeded in assassinating Hitler.  While ending the war in the west the Soviets refused to end hostilities and pushed on, aiming to take all the territory they deemed to be theirs.  Due the urgency of reequipping units with the necessary gear to counter the massive Soviet armoured forces massing to take much of Europe the E-10 was adopted the British Commonwealth as a replacement for their towed AT guns with production being undertaken in recently liberated Czechoslovakia.  Needs work I know but I will get there.

The idea is the towed AT gun has been shown to be far less effective than the SP type and that a replacement is needed for the towed 6 pounder and 17 pounder AT guns in Infantry Battalions, Reconnaissance Regiments (as well as any RA AT units).

Anyway the end result is each Commonwealth Infantry battalion and Reconnaissance Regiment replaces its Universal Carrier towed 6 pounders with 77mm HV armed version of the E-10 with 6 to 8 vehicles equipping each AT platoon.  The US is suitably impressed with this vehicle and adopts a 3" version.  At the same time turreted TD were replaced with additional tanks.

So here we are I propose an Alliedified E-10 TD to replace towed AT guns to counter possible / real Soviet aggression.


Offline Old Wombat

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Re: I like Tank Destroyers
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2013, 02:15:10 AM »
OK, a quick question.

Was there any significant difference in muzzle velocity between the 17 pounder with its long cartridge & the 77mm with its short cartridge?

I realise that they fired the same shot, I'm just wondering if the shorter cartiridge resulted in a slower projectile or not, as the case may be.

:)

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Offline Weaver

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Re: I like Tank Destroyers
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2013, 02:54:45 AM »
Intertesting project.....

I went looking for the E-10 on the web because to be honest,  I couldn't remember which "paper panzer" it was (it's definately one of the more sensible ones) and I found this build, which a) you might find useful for tips and b) has a delicious whiffy paint job:

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=110070&ord=&page=2
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Online ChernayaAkula

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Re: I like Tank Destroyers
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2013, 03:49:49 AM »
<...> a delicious whiffy paint job:

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=110070&ord=&page=2


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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: I like Tank Destroyers
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2013, 04:18:18 AM »
Here's a scenario:  With the worsening relationship between the USSR and the Western Allies in the late '40s (the most notable case being the Berlin Blockade) the Federal Republic of Germany is formally founded in May 1949.  As part of this, the Bundeswehr is officially established.  Given the recent war and the concerns over German remilitarisation (led especially by France), this force is restricted to purely defensive doctrine and equipment.  In the case of the Heer, this results in a policy that no tanks per se are allowed.  This policy even goes to the extent of stating that turreted vehicles are not allowed and that only guns in fixed mounts are allowable).  Tank Destroyers/Jagdpanzers thus become the most powerful armoured vehicles used.

In conjunction with this, there is a strong desire to produce these vehicles in West Germany as a way of helping to rebuild the economy.  When combined with a desire for rapid introduction into service/production, this leads to the re-introduction of designs already on the drawing boards/in development when the war ended.  The first example of this is the E.10.


What does this give you?  An excuse to do a post war, West German E.10.  I would probably start with it in M47 colour scheme and then go from there.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 02:17:46 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline jcf

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Re: I like Tank Destroyers
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2013, 04:23:19 AM »
De Stijl Pantser design by Rietveldt, colours by Mondrian.

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: I like Tank Destroyers
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2013, 08:42:07 AM »
Thanks guys some great ideas there.

The West German one sounds good, maybe a change in German to American nomenclature from jagdpanzer to Gun Motor Carriage (GMC) to define the vehicles role from tank destroyer type armoured vehicle to the less aggressive and more defensive armoured self propelled anti tank gun.  These vehicle being the only ones of their type are adopted by an number of NATO and other western armies as replacements for towed AT guns.

My thinking is a tank destroyer is only used as a tank when you don't have enough (or any) tanks, it is in reality a self propelled anti tank gun with a direct fire support capability.  The idea I am toying with is the various towed at guns and their tractors are replaced with small, low profile GMCs within the anti-tank / DFS platoon of non-armoured infantry (line, marine and airborne) and reconnaissance units. 

To be honest I am trying to work out a way to get a British Commonwealth version of this vehicle in service with Australia (specifically with a SP AT platoon in 3 RAR) in time for Korea, perhaps incorporating many of the defensive systems developed by the Germans late in the war.  Olive green, white stars, .30 or .50 cal MG and of course slouch hat wearing grunts standing near by. 

The follow on would be the vehicles were upgraded a number of times before being replaced in the late 60s early 70s with S-tanks, which in turn served through until the early 2000s.  This gives me 20-25 years of upgrades to contemplate, as well as whether they remain with the RAR or are transferred to the Cavalry, serving as DFS assets with the APC Squadrons.  A tempting alternative to the alternative would be, if they ended up in CAV instead of RAR would be to replace them with 20 pounder armed Kanonenjagdpanzers instead of S-tanks with Marders replacing M-113s.  Then again there is no reason why Marders couldn't have served with S-tanks. 

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: I like Tank Destroyers
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2013, 11:20:42 AM »
To get an Aussie E.10, maybe have one or more of the designers emigrate to Australia with a set of drawings.  In return for being allowed to stay, they agree to work with the Army and local industry to develop the E.10 (suitably renamed of course).  Maybe replace the 75mm gun with a 17pdr?  Have the first ones serving in Korea in time for the war.
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: I like Tank Destroyers
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2013, 11:57:08 AM »
To get an Aussie E.10, maybe have one or more of the designers emigrate to Australia with a set of drawings.  In return for being allowed to stay, they agree to work with the Army and local industry to develop the E.10 (suitably renamed of course).  Maybe replace the 75mm gun with a 17pdr?  Have the first ones serving in Korea in time for the war.
WOMBAT :)
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: I like Tank Destroyers
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2013, 12:19:08 PM »
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: I like Tank Destroyers
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2013, 12:35:34 PM »
To get an Aussie E.10, maybe have one or more of the designers emigrate to Australia with a set of drawings.  In return for being allowed to stay, they agree to work with the Army and local industry to develop the E.10 (suitably renamed of course).  Maybe replace the 75mm gun with a 17pdr?  Have the first ones serving in Korea in time for the war.
WOMBAT :)

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Interestingly it is the BAT, MOBAT and WOMBAT that replaced the towed AT gun in British service, before themselves being replaced by ATGMs.  Ironically these systems ended up being mounted on vehicles including APCs etc. meaning that an GMC was probably not a bad idea.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: I like Tank Destroyers
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2013, 01:28:10 PM »
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: I like Tank Destroyers
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2013, 01:54:41 PM »
The change in comclemature from assault guns to tank destroyers showed the changing fortunes of the Germans as the war progressed.  Ditto for the Americans.  Assault guns are primarily used on the offensive, tank destroyers on the defensive.  Tank destroyers tend, with their usually fixed casements, easier and cheaper to produce than tanks with their rotating turrets.

The E-10 might have been a little on the lightweight to carry either a 17 Pdr or a 77mm.  The Archer was 15 tons, the E-10 was designed to be 10-15 tons so it might have just been able to absorb the recoil.   It would have been rather cramped and whereas the crew could get out before the gun fired on the Archer, they may have found it a bit difficult on the enclosed E-10.

The various British recoilless guns were designed to replace conventional towed AT guns in infantry battalions.  They were initially designed to be towed (BAT) and as it was realised there was no need for heavy gun shields and mobility became more important, they ended up being designed to initially portee'ed (MOBAT) and then fired from their carrying vehicle (WOMBAT).  The problem with redesigning the E-10 (which was intended to replace the Hetzer) to utilise a recoilless weapon is that you either have to make it open-topped (with the recoilless rifle mounted outside the vehicle) or design a specialised turret (with autoloader).

As for it being used by 3 RAR in Korea - a recoilless version is unlikely.  The BAT was only just adopted by the British Army in 1953, as Korea ended.   For most of the war, 3 RAR were on the defensive, after the initial "rush to the Yalu" and the Chinese counter-offensive and the 17 Pdrs were more than adequate for that (although, I've never found much reference to their use, except as general artillery in the official history).  They were mostly dug in, on precipitous ridges and the 17 Pdr couldn't be hauled up there, so I doubt an SP could reach them (even Centurions which were part mountain goat found it difficult to climb to the top of those ridges).

If you proposed (as has been suggested) that some German designers came to Australia post-war and proposed the building of the E-10 here, I suspect you'd also need for a recoilless version, some of the German recoilless gun designers to come as well.   If you wanted it to be adapted to carry a 17 Pdr, I suspect it would need some enlarging to accept the bigger gun and it's recoil.   Neither are beyond the realm of possibility IMO.  I doubt though, it would have been in time for Korea, except perhaps at the very end.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: I like Tank Destroyers
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2013, 03:20:48 PM »
Moving to the other end of the scale, I am also planning a post war West German E.100 Stug:

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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: I like Tank Destroyers
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2013, 03:52:38 PM »
In Lego?   ;D