Author Topic: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2  (Read 23625 times)

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« on: January 08, 2012, 03:33:47 PM »
A place to share ideas on the Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2

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(image source: Wikipedia

Link to the Douglas A-20 Havoc/Boston/DB-7 page at Wikipedia
Link to the Douglas A-20G Havoc page at the National Museum of the US Air Force


***Edit to fix broken links :(
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 01:45:21 PM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2012, 03:36:51 PM »
They may have actually done this, but what about a Russian A-20 fitted with Russian engines.
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2012, 03:50:55 PM »
Better yet, how about a pair of Allison's or something similar?  That would certainly give the Havoc a different look with a brace of V-12s instead of radials. 
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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2012, 03:57:11 PM »
Meet you half way:  a pair of Klimov VK-105PF-2 V-12s...
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2012, 03:57:21 PM »
Bring the rear upper turret forward to near the wing spar.   Bring cockpit closer to wing spar.   Glass nose. 
Flatten the horizontal tailplane.
Twin vertical tails.
Replace engines with appropriately sized British engines that have exhaust collector rings on the front.   Hedgehog exhausts. 
Conventional gear rather than tricycle.
Roundels, black undersides, and D-Day Stripes.   
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2012, 04:11:53 PM »
Late WW2 or WW 46' - Gloss sea blue with those late war air group markings that were based on various shapes painted in white on the wing and tail.  Armed with torpedo under the fuselage on an external rack and fuel tanks under the wings.

Maybe add provisions for RATO units at the rear of the fuselage aft of the bomb bay doors with provisions for four or six RATO units.  In the real world there was an experimental rocket engine mounted in each nacelle to shorten take off runs.  The Air Force Museum page on the Havoc has a couple of images showing the rockets in use. 

Korean War - Gloss sea blue and air group markings for that era.  Armed with 5.0" HVAR under the wings and fragmentation or cluster bombs carried internally.  Providing close air support to UN forces.   

Vietnam War - Gray finish as used on Farm Gate aircraft armed with additional stores pylons under the wings and fuel tanks mounted at the wing tips.  USAF or RVNAF markings would work.  Gun nose of course!  Retired and replaced by the A-26K (B-26K). 
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Offline sequoiaranger

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Turbinlite Torpedo-Bomber?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2012, 04:17:17 AM »
One of my whifs I decided NOT to do (purged my 2000+ models stash instead) was a Soviet torpedo-bomber version (they actually had them) but with a "Turbinlite" searchlight in the nose for night torpedo attacks. The Turbinlite, like the "Tucker" autos, would turn toward the target (for aiming AND blinding the ship's gunners) whilst the A-20 pointed ahead for the torpedo drop.
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2012, 04:23:08 AM »
One of my whifs I decided NOT to do (purged my 2000+ models stash instead) was a Soviet torpedo-bomber version (they actually had them) but with a "Turbinlite" searchlight in the nose for night torpedo attacks. The Turbinlite, like the "Tucker" autos, would turn toward the target (for aiming AND blinding the ship's gunners) whilst the A-20 pointed ahead for the torpedo drop.

That would pretty much mirror the Keep It Simple approach of the Russians.  I remember seeing a couple of images of a 1/48th scale model A-20 in Russian markings with a torpedo strapped to one side on one of the modeling forums.  Apparently they were set up to carry two if necessary though the range with a pair of torpedoes would have been significantly reduced.  It did look interesting nonetheless. 
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Offline jcf

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2012, 05:20:12 AM »
Twin vertical tails.

The 131st DB-7 built on the French contract was built with a twin-tail empennage.
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2012, 06:53:24 AM »
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 10:55:19 AM by Daryl J. »
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2012, 07:08:30 AM »
I have to say, that RAF fin flash on the front of the vertical stabilizers is UGLY in a twin tail configuration.  The comment under the photo is wrong on the matter, too.

Quote
Depending on the timing of the photo, the roundels may be painted over because France had capitulated to Germany by the time this photo was taken. Still, the tail flash on the rudders betrays its original French purchaser. DB-7s ordered by the French, but not delivered to France before their surrender, were eventually delivered to Great Britain.

Those may have been repainted, but I doubt it.  That's RAF camo with RAF markings and an RAF serial number.  There's not a French drop of paint on the plane that I can see.

Great photo, though, thanks for posting it!

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Maverick

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2012, 08:14:42 AM »
According to Monografie Lotnicze, both the twin & single tailed aircraft are French with serials U-131 & U-101 respectively.  Whilst I concur that the rudder markings of the tricolour were a French 'thing' whilst fin markings were RAF, the fact that the darker colour is leading suggests it to be blue, which would indicate a French machine.  In B/W photos, one routinely notices blue to be a darker colour than red.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2012, 11:33:59 AM »
I know they were ordered by the French and given French serials.  That I don't dispute.  But, the aircraft as depicted in the photo were painted exclusively for the RAF, of that I have no doubt.  If it ever was painted for the French, it's been painted over, including any national markings.  On the DB-7s built for the French, Douglas painted no fuselage roundels, no camouflage, and never tail stripes on the vertical stabilizer--always on the rudder with aircraft type and serial painted over it in black.

In 1940, the world of black and white film was still in transition.  Many types of black and white film were orthochromatic, the standard of the 1920s and earlier.  By the 1940s, most film was panchromatic, but not all.  We're used to panchromatic black and white photography in which blue is darker than red, but orthochromatic film, common in the 1930s and still around in the 1940s, is the opposite, with red being darker.

An old Kodak advertisement for "new" (1930) panchromatic movie film helps to illustrate this better.



ORTHOCHROMATIC ----------<>---------- PANCHROMATIC

Take a look at two Hawker aircraft photographs in British service, the first from around 1935, the second from late 1941.





See?  The roundel colors (blue, white, and red from the outside to the inside) are, in real life, very similar, but in this photograph they are very, very different shades of gray.

The actual shade of blue may be off, but I'm sure it goes Red->White->Blue from front to back.  I think it's just the film or lighting.  See these scans from Squadron/Signal's "A-20 Havoc in Action", pages 7 & 8.



I apologize for the poor quality of the scan, but you can still see the darker red in the fin flash on all three pictures of factory fresh DB 7As. It's even darker in actual book if you have it. Maybe it was orthochromatic film instead of panchromatic? You can also see the same painted-over RAF roundel and exact same camouflage patterns as the aircraft in the above photo.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Maverick

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2012, 08:53:54 PM »
I'm certainly not going to assume one type of film used or the other and agree wholeheartedly that the machines appear to have RAF camouflage although the lack of RAF serials is puzzling as is the retention of the French ones as the RAF would have no system in place that would coincide with their format.  Equally so, I previously agreed with the rudder/fin painting being indicative of a very early RAF machine.

I also agree that many of the photos in the S/S book have a dark area where red should be, suggesting the use of the film as you mentioned, but find it odd that there's no mention of the twin tailed machine that I could see (skimming the text) or even the photo which is quite unique and of a US airfield.

One wonders if the publication dates have any impact on the information supplied?

Anyhoo, either way, a unique aircraft and quite different from the norm.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2012, 03:37:08 AM »
find it odd that there's no mention of the twin tailed machine that I could see (skimming the text) or even the photo which is quite unique and of a US airfield.

One wonders if the publication dates have any impact on the information supplied?

Anyhoo, either way, a unique aircraft and quite different from the norm.
I can't say that I do.  That's a limitation of the format, I think.  The space is limited for text and details and Squadron prefers to devote more space to service variants rather than one-off experimental aircraft.  Not including the photo could easily be a matter of not being aware of it or not having access to it for inclusion.  I have dozens of the "in Action" books and I can't say I'm that surprised that the one on the A-20 is silent about the twin tail DB-7.

I agree, though, that's a great shot of a rare plane.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2012, 09:13:50 AM »
I know the twin-tailed DB-7 was pictured in American Combat Aircraft by Ray Wagner.  I don't know that I've seen it elsewhere.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2012, 09:24:24 AM »
For its age, that is a fantastic book, too.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline jcf

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2012, 02:33:41 PM »
There is a head-on shot on page 272 of McDonnell-Douglas Aircraft since 1920: Volume 1, Rene J. Francillon, Putnam 1988.

No good for markings determination, but clearly shows the dihedral of the horizontal tailplane.

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2012, 09:40:51 PM »
American Combat Planes has, IIRC, a very nice rear view of this aircraft.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2013, 04:34:29 AM »
How about a pair of Allison V1710 engines replacing the Wright R-2600 radials?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2013, 09:46:34 AM »
How about a pair of Allison V1710 engines replacing the Wright R-2600 radials?

Something like the installation on the YB-38?  Or something a bit cleaner?

Offline raafif

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2013, 11:03:46 AM »
I tried Allison engines & it didn't look very good :(


so I tried the engine pods off an La-5FN & added twin 20mm to the belly-pack (ex-ferry-tank) :) :)

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2013, 11:55:00 AM »
I have to be honest, the idea of an Allison-powered A-20 did not sound like a pretty variant to me.  In fact, I figured it would be downright ugly.  Despite my reservations, however, your profile looks quite lovely.  I think part of it is the very natural Soviet markings on it.  I don't think it would look as natural in US markings, which overwhelmingly favored radials for its bombers in WWII.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2013, 02:36:48 PM »
Boston with Allison engines

Thanks for sharing the Havoc/Boston with the V engines.  It certainly does give it a different look.  I have enough A-20/Boston/Havoc kits in the stash to consider something like that if I can find a suitable pair of engine cowlings and propellers.  The P-38 Lighting might be the best choice at this time.  If the resin XB-38 engine conversion for the B-17 had been of better quality that could have been the best source for the parts but that is never going to happen.  Of course propeller spinners always make things look better. 

The ferry tank that fits on the bottom caught my interest when I first discovered the parts in the kit.  If you take two of these tanks and glue them together you end up with a very interesting looking fuel tank or cargo pod shape.  No idea what to hang it on yet. 

The cannons mounted in the tank are a great idea.  Should be room for a lot of ammunition and the spent casings and links can accumulate in the bottom of the pod to be disposed of later so as to not upset the balance of the aircraft. 
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Offline raafif

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Re: Douglas A-20 Havoc, DB7, Boston, BD1, and BD-2
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2013, 12:11:31 PM »
twin-boom supercharged-Allisons


Javoc (4 x Jumo-002s) with mono undercarriage