Author Topic: F-35 Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 67802 times)

Offline tsrjoe

  • Has been volunteered... for something...
Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2012, 09:46:43 PM »
... options looked at by the Finnish Ilmavoimat as probable legacy F.18C/D Hornet replacements were the Saab Gripen NG, Boeing F.18E Super Hornet and Lockheed's F.35A Lightning. The F.35A has been provisionally chosen altho the Russians have recently offered the Indian backed Sukhoi T.50 'Fitbird' for the same unit price as the Lockheed aircraft ! unfortunately a long shot (aka. not a snowballs chance !) but the lure of an F.22 Raptor equivalent coming onto the export market is an interesting development indeed, i know the Finnish delegation which evaluated the proposals came away very impressed !

John prepared some really neat artwork showing the possible contenders in Finnish markings for a little speculative piece i put together for an article on the F.35 decision

hmm, i agree it (probably) wont be cancelled (altho i can foresee a definate reduction in numbers) but  what happens when the F.35C gets delayed now that the UK. has dropped the STOVL. F.35B ? we already have one carrier going straight into mothballs prior to modification as it was planned for the initial type, the second vessel being optimised for the CTOL. carrier version !
Typhoon is a definate nono due to its internal structure not being suitable for carrier type operations, so i guess the possibility is either the F.18E Super Hornet or Dassault Rafale M as interim (or replacement) equipment. The UK. already has pilots on exchange both in the US. and France potentially covering both options

cheers, Joe

Offline deathjester

  • 'Remember - Tiredness Kills Hedgehogs...!'
  • His Mother-in-law has Tardis pockets...
    • stormfront models
Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2012, 01:00:22 AM »

Typhoon is a definate nono due to its internal structure not being suitable for carrier type operations, so i guess the possibility is either the F.18E Super Hornet or Dassault Rafale M as interim (or replacement) equipment. The UK. already has pilots on exchange both in the US. and France potentially covering both options

cheers, Joe
Joe:  I thought I'd read somewhere that the Eurofighter folks had already deisigned a navalised version of the jet?  Is that so?

Greg:  If I'm ever cynical about anything, it's defence procurement!  And I have a sneaking suspicion that, what with loads of countries paying towards the development costs of the jet, the unit price will strangely end up being too high for anyone but the USA to afford...

Offline tsrjoe

  • Has been volunteered... for something...
Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2012, 01:32:54 AM »
... as far as im led to understand there were feasibility studies carried out a few years back and again recently (re an Indian Navy requirement) a few drawings of a proposed revised undercarriage arrangement have been posted online from the original study, there was also a neat painting from AVPRO showing a naval Typhoon with arrestor hook and twin nosewheels widely circulated at the time of the go ahead for the new Royal Navy CVF.
From a colleague working on the type, Typhoon itself would have to be redesigned completely to take the stresses of an arrested landing as normal practice. The Dassault Rafale was designed from the outset with a 'keel' giving a very stong longitudinal structure wheras the Typhoon's strength is laterally, and when originally proposed there was no need for a naval mission requirement so was never seen as an issue

Its interesting to note the F.35C has had recent problems re arrested landings, the whole mounting having to be resited aft as the previous position was deemed unsuitable, unfortunately again this will probably encrue further strengthening in the resited area to cope with increased airframe stresses

cheers, Joe

Offline deathjester

  • 'Remember - Tiredness Kills Hedgehogs...!'
  • His Mother-in-law has Tardis pockets...
    • stormfront models
Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2012, 02:01:50 AM »
Ah, cheers mate - I thought I'd heard about that somewhere - though the article never mentoned 'complete redesign'!

Have to say, the Rafale is a beautiful, highly capable jet - I think it would be an excellent choice for the FAA.

Alternatively, both the Aussies and the Canadians, our Commonwealth partners, and not least the US Forces, use F-18 variants, so would it be better for us to maintain commonality with our 'main allies'?

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2012, 03:11:15 AM »
Anything other than a French Rafale is about to become a permanent what-if as the
French government is ready to pull the plug on the production line. Evidently they
are tired of keeping the program going only for Dassault's benefit. So Dassault
better make an overseas sale PDQ.

One wonders if the Rafale is the aviation equivalent of the Citroen DS:
fun to drive
great to look at
technically and technologically advanced
reliable engine

an absolute nightmare to maintain and operate on a regular basis
expensive to own (see above)
 ;D
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2012, 03:49:30 AM »
Yep, the last chance for the Rafale is the current Indian contest.  I suspect that it will go th the Typhoon though.

Based upon my own experience (and those of colleagues) I would definitely back up the nightmare to maintain issue too.  Not trying to sound anti-French (it is after all, a beautiful design, like many of theirs), but the sustainment support from French companies has left an awful lot to be desired when compared to some of their US competitors.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Pellson

  • Guest
Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2012, 03:55:51 AM »
I'd place my money on a russian machine for India.  ;)

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2012, 04:07:38 AM »
Already rejected.  The competition is down to either the Rafale or Typhoon.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Stargazer2006

  • Guest
Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2012, 04:15:37 AM »
Just for the fun of it...



Offline taiidantomcat

  • Plastic Origamist...and not too shabby with the painting either!
  • Global Moderator
  • Stylishly late...because he was reading comics
Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2012, 04:26:30 AM »
We all know i am very pro F-35 and Greg and I are in the same mode. I am not going to get too "real world" on the F-35 (that's for another for another time)  :icon_music:

...But I will say, we need to think "more outside the box!!" We aren't being whiffy enough about this! Stop worrying about more of the same old Super bugs with USAF instead of USN. Lets think "new design" because if the F-35 gets canceled, its need for 21st century missions still exists.

Its going to need to be stealthy and with advanced sensors.

Redoing or rehashing a teen fighter means serious expense and development to the point that you might as well start anew.



« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 05:40:45 AM by taiidantomcat »
"They know you can do anything, So the question is, what don't you do?"

-David Fincher

Offline Paul Wagner

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
    • Stoccata School of Defence
Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2012, 11:23:05 AM »
Alternatively, both the Aussies and the Canadians, our Commonwealth partners, and not least the US Forces, use F-18 variants, so would it be better for us to maintain commonality with our 'main allies'?

Nope, you should get the best plane regardless of compatibility. Who knows what the world will look like in 20 years? Who your (useful) allies will be? Interoperability might be a consideration, but not a determining factor....

...so for us I'd go for the Typhoon over more Hornets. It's just reaching full development in regards to strike capability, BAe has done a lot of work on a possible carrier variant (again, for when/if the F35 gets cancelled) with increased range and tougher landing gear (good for us), and given Europe's financial woes, we could negotiate a really good price....

BTW, history shows us anything can get cancelled - another financial crash could send the US into a deep depression, or a change in Government (Ron Paul for President?!?!), or really bad publicity (like an F35 falling out of the sky)... anything can happen...!

Paul
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 11:50:06 AM by Paul Wagner »

Offline taiidantomcat

  • Plastic Origamist...and not too shabby with the painting either!
  • Global Moderator
  • Stylishly late...because he was reading comics
Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2012, 12:04:02 PM »

...so for us I'd go for the Typhoon over more Hornets. It's just reaching full development in regards to strike capability, BAe has done a lot of work on a possible carrier variant (again, for when/if the F35 gets cancelled) with increased range and tougher landing gear (good for us), and given Europe's financial woes, we could negotiate a really good price....


But The Hornet does already have strike capability, carrier capability, and I would hazard a guess and say stronger airframe and landing gear to land on ships in the first place. Not trying to nitpick just pointing out that all the stuff the typhoon might get "someday" the Hornet has already.

BTW the latest defense review in the US are showing even more reliance on the F-35 and selling it to allies. The F-35 is getting more and more bulletproof everyday. just sayin'
"They know you can do anything, So the question is, what don't you do?"

-David Fincher

Offline Doom!

  • Slayer of pixels and plastic!
  • Glad to be here!
    • Doom Island 2
Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2012, 12:09:43 PM »




I'd sure as heck like to have a dozen or so of whatever the heck this thing is in my stash!
Doom!
Jeff G.

Offline sotoolslinger

  • A World Champion Blackbelt in Putty-Foo…the man means business (just look at his photo!)
  • Look at the banner and you will see his work.
Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2012, 12:45:34 PM »
OH HECK YEAH :-*

Offline Paul Wagner

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
    • Stoccata School of Defence
Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2012, 01:23:37 PM »
all the stuff the typhoon might get "someday" the Hornet has already.

I suspect the Typhoon is just (half-a-)generation ahead of the Super Hornet, especially in the air-to-air role - but if I were defence minister I'd want a fly-off between them to actually find out for sure. If there wasn't much in it, sure get the Hornets for compatibility reasons, but if the Typhoon was significantly better as an interceptor/air superiority*, that'd trump it for me.

BTW the latest defense review in the US are showing even more reliance on the F-35 and selling it to allies. The F-35 is getting more and more bulletproof everyday. just sayin'

...and speaking personally, I find that utterly horrifying... (still waiting for the "sparring room" to get going on this ;) !)

Paul

* Ah, now I remember why: The outcome of the JOUST Simulation which compared the effectiveness of different aircraft in BVR combat “against an upgraded Su-27 Flanker (comparable to an Su-35 Super Flanker and its equivalents)” resulted in the Rafale achieving an exchange rate of 1 to 1, the F-22 an exchange rate of 10.1 to 1, the Typhoon had an exchange rate of 4.5 to 1, F-16C Falcon 0.3 to 1, F-15C Eagle 0.8 to 1, F-18C Hornet 0.3 to 1, and the F-18+ Super Hornet 0.4 to 1. So, according to this, the Typhoon is better than the Super Hornet
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 02:13:34 PM by Paul Wagner »